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RE: Its over - 1/31/2016 8:29:43 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
..
How about those military vehicles?

Yes, they were allowed to use them. Its found in the US Constitution under an amendment. The....SECOND...amendment. Oh, you thought the 2nd only applies to individual Americans having access to firearms, right? WRONG! The FBI and local police forces (you know, the ACTUAL "....well regulated militia...") have a Constitutional right to such arms.

...

.
... wow.


So Joe says that the 2nd not only covers the people but also the government.
And he says that this allowed the governnt to use tanks against the people.
Thus his logic leads to........people have the right to own tanks

< Message edited by BamaD -- 1/31/2016 8:57:24 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Its over - 1/31/2016 9:59:35 PM   
Greta75


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I was thinking about this case.

Usually, people do peaceful protest without arms, strip naked, starve, just hog roads, whatever, peaceful protest! And if the government comes in and shoots, that would be completely UNACCEPTABLE!

Now the problem is, these guys are protesting with weapons.

So I just think, in that kind of light. Casualties are expected.

They shouldn't have protest with Arms.

But I guess if they had no arms, then government can just stomp in with Arms and arrest them all too.

I don't know. Protesting of any kind is illegal in my country, so we don't have to think about what to do in all these situations! And if anybody really feels the need to protest, they gotta apply for a license and there is only one legal spot they can do so, but very heavily regulated, like they gotta declare from what time to what time they will be occupying that space and stick to it, and what's the protest about, and needs approval ha. Everything needs to be orderly.

I'd personally block any food supplies to them, and starve them out. Eventually, they will grow hungry and surrender. That's probably the most peaceful way right? Infact, I'd keep telling them, if they all peacefully surrender their arms, we got a buffet waiting! And just feed them if they surrender.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/31/2016 10:01:20 PM >

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RE: Its over - 2/1/2016 3:39:19 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
...
Protesting of any kind is illegal in my country, so we don't have to think about what to do in all these situations!
...


What kind of totalitarian shithole do you live in?

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RE: Its over - 2/1/2016 6:16:43 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

What kind of totalitarian shithole do you live in?


We are very business minded. Protesting can lead to riots, and disruption of public safety.
We don't want to be like Europe where strikes happens all the time, and things like that.

We want to be smooth, efficient country, where everyday runs perfectly and smoothly with no disruptions. Thanks to these rules, we get alot of foreign companies based in our country, and we are one of those rare countries, where we got more jobs than people to fulfill them. People like the stability.

We want people to be more concern about things like education, improving themselves, and making money for themselves, than anything else.

I mean, you don't agree with this, but this eliminates poverty. It works. And without welfare too. And it makes people focus on more constructive things.

How many protests actually make changes? People should instead aspire to be politicians, lawyers or doctors, if they want to do good.

We are proudly pragmatic. A protest like this one. What has it achieved? Nothing. Waste of government resources to go handle them. And now someone died too. It's stupid and a waste of time, and it's done out of rash emotional factors. Nobody benefited from it.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/1/2016 6:23:18 PM >

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RE: - 2/1/2016 6:36:16 PM   
DominantWrestler


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Status: offline 		You actually have quite a bit of welfare, and as long as your economic overlords don't starve you all too death, Signapore won't have to elect anyone new. But seriously, tax havens only attract business, they do not create business

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RE: RE: - 2/1/2016 6:52:10 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

You actually have quite a bit of welfare

Like what?
As a country with zero natural resource. Our survival is completely reliant on foreign businesses operating in our country. We can't afford to have disruptions and protest around here. We need to work on our strengths. Best airport, best shipping ports, and safest and most stable place.

It's more than just tax haven that attracts business, if it was just tax haven, our competing Asian regions are all pretty much the same, plus they would be cheaper to be based in, in terms of manpower and operating cost as well as rental or ownership of land and buildings anyway. You can give all the tax haven you want. Middle East is zero tax place. Why don't more business flock there? Because it's unstable and unsafe.

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RE: Its over - 2/1/2016 7:12:19 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz
What kind of totalitarian shithole do you live in?


You read right. And for all her talk about how tolerant they are when it comes to people expressing their religion, she fails to mention that you can also be imprisoned or institutionalized for shaming someone over their religion.

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RE: Its over - 2/1/2016 7:19:25 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
You read right. And for all her talk about how tolerant they are when it comes to people expressing their religion, she fails to mention that you can also be imprisoned or institutionalized for shaming someone over their religion.

Yea, we jail people who hurt the feelings of other religious groups, as it is again, necessary, to prevent religious groups from fighting with each other.
I don't agree with this law, as you know how I feel about Islam and I think we should totally openly be criticizing them.
But I understand that we can't afford Muslims burning down all the churches, just because, we criticized their religion. We are also the Israel of Asia, surrounded by two much larger Muslim countries with heavy fundamental terrorist Muslims inhabitant. So any incitement, could cause a war.
So in that, it's for the greater good, it was a pragmatic decision. Inline with the type of government we voted for. We want pragmatic leadership who can make the adult, mature, sensible decisions, when we are being emotional.

My personal feelings of wanting to criticize Islam is an emotional one as I hate their oppression of women. But just like the US maintaining diplomacy with one of the worst women's right country in the world Saudi Arabia. Sometimes, being friends with evil people is a unfortunate necessity.

And there is no contradiction. They don't oppress religions from their practices and festivities. They just want religious groups to stop fighting with each other and insulting each other. So they punish those who starts a verbal war with another religious group. As our history show, and modern history show, it leads to physical war.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/1/2016 7:29:01 PM >

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RE: RE: - 2/1/2016 7:20:32 PM   
DominantWrestler


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Status: offline 		Healthcare and Temasek Holdings amongst others. But as I said, tax havens redirect business at the sacrifice of locational efficiency. More or less lowering international business in the interest of profits

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RE: RE: - 2/1/2016 7:21:35 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

Healthcare and Temasek Holdings amongst others. But as I said, tax havens redirect business at the sacrifice of locational efficiency. More or less lowering international business in the interest of profits

Healthcare is not free.
Temasek holdings builds our reserve. Our taxes goes to them. They are suppose to wisely increase our country's wealth reserves. We don't get to touch that money.
We have zero free healthcare. We paid every single cent for our healthcare and health insurance. It's 100% out of our own pocket.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/1/2016 7:25:52 PM >

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RE: RE: - 2/1/2016 7:43:36 PM   
DominantWrestler


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Status: offline 		And subsidized. Do you know why they have to be subsidized?

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RE: RE: - 2/1/2016 7:52:00 PM   
DominantWrestler


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Status: offline 		Not to mention location, location, location

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RE: RE: - 2/1/2016 8:23:38 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler
And subsidized. Do you know why they have to be subsidized?

subsidized is not welfare
It's because they are public hospitals, and the government are suppose to run it at a cheaper than normal rate. Public buses, Public hospitals, Public schools, are not suppose to be for profit. So subsidise because they are run at a cheaper rate when regular profits are not needed to run them as they aren't corporations, they are there to serve the basic need at affordable prices.
Welfare to me is free stuffs.
Like Bernie suggesting free public colleges, free medical. That's welfare.

I mean, hospitalisation for 5 days still will cost you $5000 in a public hospital, after subsidy. So it's not like it's cheap, we are still paying heaps for it. In a normal hospital, it will be worst.

What I think is amazing in my country is, high cost of living. Much more expensive than US or Canada, but we managed a system where people can work and earn a living to support the high cost of living. I mean, my best sex right now is actually Canadian. And we were supermarket shopping, and he said in Canada, for $100, you could really fill up a whole shopping trolley filled with stuffs. In Singapore. 4 or 5 items, and you have hit $100. One tiny 200grams stack of steak is $28. Already, another tiny block of cheese is another $20bux. Some ham, another $20. It adds up fast.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/1/2016 8:34:53 PM >

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RE: Its over - 2/1/2016 8:51:17 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

What kind of totalitarian shithole do you live in?


We are very business minded. Protesting can lead to riots, and disruption of public safety.
We don't want to be like Europe where strikes happens all the time, and things like that.


So instead you do as you're told, when you're told, and don't talk back?
What's it like being a slave instead of a subject, let alone citizen?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
We want to be smooth, efficient country, where everyday runs perfectly and smoothly with no disruptions. Thanks to these rules, we get alot of foreign companies based in our country, and we are one of those rare countries, where we got more jobs than people to fulfill them. People like the stability.
...


Mussolini made the trains run on time but he was still a fascist dictator.

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RE: Its over - 2/1/2016 10:33:03 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz
So instead you do as you're told, when you're told, and don't talk back?
What's it like being a slave instead of a subject, let alone citizen?

My personality here is so outspoken and opinionated. Singaporeans are like that too. It's a western myth that people don't talk back here. Government is being criticized and condemn all the time. We have a term call, "Complain King", that's our classic trait. We complain, we don't protest. We lodge official complains to the government about our unhappiness for certain matters. We meet our MPs face to face and tell him to his face our issues, and he goes to parliament to convey our views. MPs goes door to door visits to gather personal feedback and again bring it up in parliament. We have a system going, orderly system. But the beauty of our government is, they listen. It's been a great last few years. All the complains were heard, and they made the changes that we been grumbling about. Most Singaporeans just don't feel like protesting is needed to make changes. If we have something constructive to say, we do it through proper channels. If it's valid, and majority supports the view, the government listens and make the changes we want. Of course if it's just a loud minority screaming, that usually gets ignored.

Past few years, people complain there are too many foreigners in our country, the government tightens up foreign quota. We complain we want more opposition in our parliament. Now the government implemented new rules, opposition gets some complimentary seats, DESPITE losing and will get to vote in parliament. People complain that our CPF interest is too low. They have increased it. People complain that housing prices are rising too fast! They implemented cooling measures to slow down the housing prices. They been fulfilling our wishes. Our government works for us.

In the US right now, despite freedom of speech, NOTHING gets done. Presidents after Presidents, same reoccuring issues surfaces, and the President elected gets nothing done.

People think because our ruling party is in power so many years, because of oppression or something. But it's because they have been doing a damn good job! All our lives keep improving, everybody gets wealthier. After all, we are still a democracy. And every year, we vote them back in, by choice, and every year, they get overwhelming majority vote. Because we don't like the opposition Socialist ideas.

Infact, I was just thinking about the US. I'd like them hold a country-wide vote, on whether they should allow Muslims into the country. IF majority voted No! Would the democratic government respect the people's choice? Probably not. They would condemn majority for having no heart. They will not respect what their citizens want. You literally have like all these govenors standing up against the government choice to allow Syria refugees in. And then you got the elected President criticizing what his citizens want. He was all about what he wants.

Our government respect our choices more. Malaysia took in Syria refugees. We did not. We did not because majority of our population says NO to Syria refugees. That's a government doing the will of their people.

I don't even know IF US has any system where the government get regular people involvement in forming policies. In my country, there is always country-wide involvement for people to send in some constructive solutions to solve whatever problems our country is facing. And these solutions gets debated and discussed publicly what's viable. Pros and Cons of implementation. I actually freaking love this about my country. And the best solution will be chosen and implemented.

We do everything rationally, systematically, orderly and pragmatically.

And it could have been a simple issue of, some foreigner fell into our train tracks because she fainted. And many Singaporeans wrote in to complain that, that is unacceptable. More safety measures has to be implemented to prevent people from falling in by accident. Unheard off in any other country, they wouldn't care. The government implemented the suggestion by the public to improve safety. Now all train stations have tall safety glass fence barriers. It was reacted very fast too. Done and completed within the year because we asked for it.




< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/1/2016 11:08:08 PM >

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RE: Its over - 2/2/2016 6:26:23 AM   
DominantWrestler


Posts: 338
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Status: offline 		So basically, your public transport, education, defense and housing are all, at least in part, paid for by the government and therefore are at least partially socialized.

In my state, a series of petitions can allow a ballot initiative to be voted on in the next election. That is just one way citizens can influence politics in America

And you might be surprised by the number of people here who aren't xenophobic

That 200 gram steak you pay 28 dollars for might be 3 or 4 dollars in America. Even after exchange rate, you're still paying maybe 6 times as much. Increased income is nice as long as living expenses aren't too high

< Message edited by DominantWrestler -- 2/2/2016 6:27:36 AM >

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RE: Its over - 2/2/2016 3:07:02 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

It is very unfortunate that there was any loss of life and that does put this whole affair in a very bad light. But this was a case of serious govt. overreach even though legally the govt. did have the power. Govt. used it like a weapon rather than as simply a position of strength that could have ended this affair more peacefully.

The real problem I see here is the ever increasing overreach of govt. and even with the power of the courts, that govt. having essentially, a monopoly on violence, this still could have been handled better.
No. When you're engaged in armed insurrection against the government of the United States, you've effectively lost your right to complain about an armed response. You've become a danger to your fellow citizens and the government has every right to use the lawfully empowered civilian forces to remove you using any means necessary.

quote:

In fact, it is the very law that grants the executive a monopoly on the 'taking' of property seems to afford [it] the right to intimidate those that don't wish...to be 'taken.'


The property in question already belongs to the federal government of the United States as established by various geopolitical treaties, annexations, acts of secession and purchases. It has never belonged to the state of Oregon and certainly not to Ammon Bundy.

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RE: Its over - 2/2/2016 3:57:15 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

It is very unfortunate that there was any loss of life and that does put this whole affair in a very bad light. But this was a case of serious govt. overreach even though legally the govt. did have the power. Govt. used it like a weapon rather than as simply a position of strength that could have ended this affair more peacefully.

The real problem I see here is the ever increasing overreach of govt. and even with the power of the courts, that govt. having essentially, a monopoly on violence, this still could have been handled better.
No. When you're engaged in armed insurrection against the government of the United States, you've effectively lost your right to complain about an armed response. You've become a danger to your fellow citizens and the government has every right to use the lawfully empowered civilian forces to remove you using any means necessary.

quote:

In fact, it is the very law that grants the executive a monopoly on the 'taking' of property seems to afford [it] the right to intimidate those that don't wish...to be 'taken.'


The property in question already belongs to the federal government of the United States as established by various geopolitical treaties, annexations, acts of secession and purchases. It has never belonged to the state of Oregon and certainly not to Ammon Bundy.

This is not armed insurection, Baltimore was.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Its over - 2/2/2016 5:35:26 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

It is very unfortunate that there was any loss of life and that does put this whole affair in a very bad light. But this was a case of serious govt. overreach even though legally the govt. did have the power. Govt. used it like a weapon rather than as simply a position of strength that could have ended this affair more peacefully.

The real problem I see here is the ever increasing overreach of govt. and even with the power of the courts, that govt. having essentially, a monopoly on violence, this still could have been handled better.


I don't understand what people think they could have done to end this standoff without more violence than this one (tragic, yes) episode.

When this first happened, people were calling for the government to use some of the same tactics that they had used previously and resulted in more violence. Such as surrounding the grounds with troops, including snipers. Cut off opportunities for them to get supplies. Shout off power and water.

If they had done any of these things, other people would have been accusing them of trying to starve them to death or freeze them to death. Not only did the government NOT do any of those things, they actually let people in the occupation come and go on supply runs. They didn't surround the grounds, in fact for the most part they stayed miles away.

They didn't prevent reporters and others who wanted to go in and talk to the occupiers from going in. They didn't shut off communication to the outside.

When the first town meeting that the occupiers scheduled was cancelled, people were saying that the government should have scheduled a fake meeting, and arrested them on their way to the meeting, putting as few people in danger as possible. The government didn't do that. They left them alone and let them come and go.

When they finally did get them off the grounds and attempted to take the leaders, one of them charged. A man who, before the occupation even started, had already made it clear that he would not be taken and had pretty much said his goodbyes. He was armed and he charged.

How exactly could they have prevented this?

Giving into their demands was not and should not have been an option. These men were unwanted by the people they claimed to represent, and in fact had been asked to leave by those very people. They came in from another state, and put the whole town and surrounding area on high alert, making people scared for themselves and their families. The reserve was closed the weekend that they took it over, but it was supposed to open back up that week. All this time people have been out of work.

Frankly, I think that the fact that the only injuries were one wound to Bundy, the leader, and the death of someone who was looking to die for 'his' cause, showed that a lot of people showed a hell of a lot of restraint.

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RE: Its over - 2/2/2016 6:02:48 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

So basically, your public transport, education, defense and housing are all, at least in part, paid for by the government and therefore are at least partially socialized.

I don't see it as partially paid by the government, because, they run it. So they can run it at lower cost, lower profit as compared to corporations who have to make money for shareholders. So I wouldn't say they pay for it. They run it like a self-sustaining business. I said, the cost is still significant. My brother's subsidise tiny 3 room apartment is gonna cost him 600k. And when I say tiny, it's like seriously small. 800sqft or something.

quote:

That 200 gram steak you pay 28 dollars for might be 3 or 4 dollars in America. Even after exchange rate, you're still paying maybe 6 times as much. Increased income is nice as long as living expenses aren't too high

One of the reason it is so expensive because it's all imported. US grow their own food, that helps keep cost low. We just don't have the land over here to grow or raise our own food. We do some hydroponics vegetables, but very minimum. I always feel this country has to focus on it's wealth big time because in world food crisis, we are gonna need to have the money to buy it when countries stop importing to take care of their own first. Prices would have skyrocket.

Steak from US are like the most expensive steaks in Singapore! You guys have it as a staple, for us, US steak are seriously top end luxury food. If you go to a restaurant. Having USDA steak starts from $60 and up.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/2/2016 6:08:44 PM >

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