RE: Freedom From Atheism!

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freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/9/2016 7:11:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence Really? Well this is turning out to be a good thread, I had no idea that christians were persecuted in China, is it that you have to be part of an official church and your friend doesn't want to or what gives? Oh yeah freedomdwarf. There's no persecution of christianity in china: http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-persecution-news-china-announces-intensified-crackdown-on-christian-churches-147508/ http://www.opendoorsuk.org/persecution/worldwatch/china.php http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/30/china-christianity-removal-crosses-communist-party-churches http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2015/07/29/chinas-hideous-persecution-of-christians-cant-continue-to-go-unchecked/ http://www.christiantoday.com/article/christian.persecution.in.china.mounts.with.arrest.of.activists.opposing.cross.removal/63244.htm Interesting that you respond to Code, quote him, then provide your biased links aimed at me [8\|] All of your religious links quote "persecution". I don't see it that way. If there is a nationwide ban on religious decoration on buildings and the christians decide they don't like it and put them up in defiance of the law, I'd say it was the christians being the law-breakers here rather than them being "persecuted" just for their religion and beliefs. They aren't banning or interfering with the religion or anything of the sort. They are enforcing the building laws of the country. To quote from one of your own sources: "...Yet since the Maoist state was opened to capitalism in the 1980s, Christianity, along with other religions, has grown at an astonishing rate". It further reports: "that Christian leaders in eastern China had taken to the streets in protest at the removal of crosses; in the past two years, it’s estimated that more than 1,200 crosses have been removed from churches in Zhejiang province as part of a government initiative. The periodic campaigns against Christianity in China might suggest that the religion is a foreign import that the authorities can hope to suppress, and a fringe element in Chinese life. This would be almost entirely wrong. Although Christianity is undoubtedly an import to China, Christians argue that it is as well placed as any religion there, since the Communist regime so successfully persecuted traditional Chinese belief systems as well". Notice that they [christians] are protesting against the removal of the crosses, not for persecution of their religious beliefs. In much the same way that the Mormons are not legally allowed to have multiple wives as their religion allows, the law of the land prevails when it comes to taking action. You have freedom of religion in the US; yet they cannot legally practice it fully. Is it "persecution"? No. It is enforcing the law of the land; nothing more. Distasteful? Yes. Unwarranted? Yes, if you are a christian. Unfair? Arguable. But persecution? No. Not even close. Your whole bias, as with all of your links, is barking up the wrong tree for the wrong reasons.

Phydeaux -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/9/2016 7:19:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence Really? Well this is turning out to be a good thread, I had no idea that christians were persecuted in China, is it that you have to be part of an official church and your friend doesn't want to or what gives? Oh yeah freedomdwarf. There's no persecution of christianity in china: http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-persecution-news-china-announces-intensified-crackdown-on-christian-churches-147508/ http://www.opendoorsuk.org/persecution/worldwatch/china.php http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/30/china-christianity-removal-crosses-communist-party-churches http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2015/07/29/chinas-hideous-persecution-of-christians-cant-continue-to-go-unchecked/ http://www.christiantoday.com/article/christian.persecution.in.china.mounts.with.arrest.of.activists.opposing.cross.removal/63244.htm Interesting that you respond to Code, quote him, then provide your biased links aimed at me [8\|] All of your religious links quote "persecution". I don't see it that way. If there is a nationwide ban on religious decoration on buildings and the christians decide they don't like it and put them up in defiance of the law, I'd say it was the christians being the law-breakers here rather than them being "persecuted" just for their religion and beliefs. They aren't banning or interfering with the religion or anything of the sort. They are enforcing the building laws of the country. To quote from one of your own sources: "...Yet since the Maoist state was opened to capitalism in the 1980s, Christianity, along with other religions, has grown at an astonishing rate". It further reports: "that Christian leaders in eastern China had taken to the streets in protest at the removal of crosses; in the past two years, it’s estimated that more than 1,200 crosses have been removed from churches in Zhejiang province as part of a government initiative. The periodic campaigns against Christianity in China might suggest that the religion is a foreign import that the authorities can hope to suppress, and a fringe element in Chinese life. This would be almost entirely wrong. Although Christianity is undoubtedly an import to China, Christians argue that it is as well placed as any religion there, since the Communist regime so successfully persecuted traditional Chinese belief systems as well". Notice that they [christians] are protesting against the removal of the crosses, not for persecution of their religious beliefs. In much the same way that the Mormons are not legally allowed to have multiple wives as their religion allows, the law of the land prevails when it comes to taking action. You have freedom of religion in the US; yet they cannot legally practice it fully. Is it "persecution"? No. It is enforcing the law of the land; nothing more. Distasteful? Yes. Unwarranted? Yes, if you are a christian. Unfair? Arguable. But persecution? No. Not even close. Your whole bias, as with all of your links, is barking up the wrong tree for the wrong reasons. That analysis isn't even a layer of paint thick. Apparently you chose to ignore the 34 people being beaten by security forces protesting the shutting of their church? Here's a few other things you ignored.. quote: Just last month, a Christian pastor in Anhui province was arrested after being accused of engaging in "cult activities" and for allegedly communicating with organizations outside of the country. Pastor Lu Jiangyang was freed after 15 days, but his arrest clearly told other clergy that the Chinese government can take down Christian churches at liberty. quote: Church meetings are disrupted or stopped, and Christian lawyers defending churches from having their crosses forcibly removed have been imprisoned. quote: For Han Chinese churches, the police in most cases refrain from violence, but invite church leaders to 'have tea'. This is a euphemism for clarifying rules and limits of religious acts and meetings and is a very effective means in order to establish a 'harmonious society'. What do they ask? Pastor Wei says, "Things like 'Who are the leaders in your church?' and 'Are any foreigners involved in your church?' I am cautioned not to let my church grow too much. quote: "We are all very angry. They didn't inform people what charges they were being held on and they didn't produce any documents. There are people outside my house. I know if I go out, they might arrest me, too," the source said. quote:

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/9/2016 8:17:32 PM)
Religion is personal, and as such has no place in the public forum P.S. I am not an atheist.

Phydeaux -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/9/2016 8:47:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Religion is personal, and as such has no place in the public forum P.S. I am not an atheist. Psst. News flash. Freedom of speech.

Greta75 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 1:25:46 AM)
I just got something to say something about persecution of Christianity in china IF there was any. I honestly think it's more of a race thing. Racism is very different in Asia, compared to the West. Many Asian countries have no problem openly promoting first rights to dominant race of their country. And many practice it on open levels. Where nobody is crying about it. Even the minorities accept it as the norm and carry on with their regular lives. And in China, Christianity, is seen as a white person's religion. Base on that, if they see it being infiltrated too much, they will do something about it. Basically, there are many who hate how white culture has infiltrated their country. And actively work to prevent it or go against it. They want to preserve and maintain their own culture. It's like a whole different ball game, like if white people want to preserve white culture, it's called white supremacist. In Asia, it's every race's right to preserve their culture. They are seen as doing something that is expected of their own duty to their own race to maintain their roots and blood line of their race. Very few Chinese men are willing to inter-marriage and have mix blood kids, precisely because of their strong loyalty to preserving their race bloodlines. Women, they don't care, as Chinese women can't carry on the Chinese family name for the kids.

Greta75 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 1:32:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Religion is personal, and as such has no place in the public forum P.S. I am not an atheist. This part of the forum is about religion and politics, so if you do not want to discuss religion, do avoid this segment.

tweakabelle -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 4:26:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 I just got something to say something about persecution of Christianity in china IF there was any. I honestly think it's more of a race thing. Racism is very different in Asia, compared to the West. Many Asian countries have no problem openly promoting first rights to dominant race of their country. And many practice it on open levels. Where nobody is crying about it. Even the minorities accept it as the norm and carry on with their regular lives. And in China, Christianity, is seen as a white person's religion. Base on that, if they see it being infiltrated too much, they will do something about it. Basically, there are many who hate how white culture has infiltrated their country. And actively work to prevent it or go against it. They want to preserve and maintain their own culture. It's like a whole different ball game, like if white people want to preserve white culture, it's called white supremacist. In Asia, it's every race's right to preserve their culture. They are seen as doing something that is expected of their own duty to their own race to maintain their roots and blood line of their race. Very few Chinese men are willing to inter-marriage and have mix blood kids, precisely because of their strong loyalty to preserving their race bloodlines. Women, they don't care, as Chinese women can't carry on the Chinese family name for the kids. For once Greta, I agree with the sentiments you have expressed. Attitudes towards race and racism are very different in Asia, and the phenomenon of racism is also very different. When I was in Japan, I was initially shocked to hear educated intelligent people discuss the need for racial purity, but for many Japanese this is an important part of their identity and culture. It is very different indeed from the racial supremacist claims expressed in the West - a completely different phenomenon that needs to be understood as a different phenomenon if we are to understand it properly. Much of the antagonism expressed against Western religions in parts of Asian is more against the 'Western' element in the equation than the religious element. So it is wrong to draw an exact equivalence between this and religious repression, as some are wont to do. One needs to remember a century of humiliation at the hands of Western imperialists when considering this phenomenon and to view it in that light. In general Eastern cultures and in particular Buddhist cultures are far more tolerant of religious diversity than Western cultures, though there are of course exceptions to this (eg the repression of Muslim minority in Myanmar aka Burma).

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 4:59:36 AM)
The Chinese in general are well known to make people 'disappear' or arrested for no apparent reason. The most recent lot are a bunch of book shop owners. Nobody, and certainly nobody outside of China, will ever know the reasons for what they do. And everything you quoted in defense was about foreigners and crosses, NOT about the christian religion. You like to put a 'christian' spin on it where it doesn't apply. Sorry.... close, but no cigar.

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:02:30 AM)
@Tweakabelle Oh, Yes it's so different! God forbid white people would feel racial pride in the fact that the dice of faith gave them fair skin while the Asians can feel pride in the slight difference of a caramel color and saucer eyes!* I mean I think both is extremely silly but stupid stuff should be treated equally. I mean yes, the whites are to blame for the Nanking massacre and the imposition of racial superiority in Korea and the discrimination of Chinese people in the island nations of Asia and the Vietnamese/China racist stereotyping and if they aren't to blame then it's just cute and their "cultural identity"! Bravo bravo! [:)] Oh no, the saucer eyes! Was that a racial-insult-prejudice-non-pc-term?! Even though I find them nice joking about them saucer eyes is forbidden! Let's not forget about the most destructive wars throughout history were launched by Mongols and by the Chinese but I'm sure some whites were over there poking their filthy nose into business that isn't theirs. quote:* tolerant of religious diversity than Western culture No? quote: century of humiliation at the hands of Western imperialists when considering this phenomenon and to view it in that light. As if the Han chinese weren't imperialists themselves! They conquered all other "chinese minorities" with brutal force. Or the Japanese... Or let's not even get into the Indonesian bloody genocide of the East Timor population (with of course the tacit consent of the United States, god bless it!). After the small but brave Timor army stalled the Indonesian offensive in a similar way to how the Italians got their butt kicked by the Greeks early in WW2 they then decided to simply wipe out the population.

Greta75 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:10:19 AM)
White people themselves created the culture of it being unacceptable to feel proud about themselves racially. It's like something that is a west thingy. Asians were always happily soaking in our race pride ha openly even among other Asians. We all think we are better than each other. Indians think they are better than chinese. Chinese think we are better than Indians. Like we all think our race is superior than each others, true or false, we don't care because that's okay. I mean, even between chinese/koreans/japanese, we all think we are better than each other all the time. Even between Hong kong chinese, Taiwanese chinese, Mainland chinese and Singapore Chinese. We are like 4 different race of the same colour and you probably can't tell us apart. But we all think we are better than each other all the time.

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:13:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 White people themselves created the culture of it being unacceptable to feel proud about themselves racially. It's like something that is a west thingy. Asians were always happily soaking in our race pride ha openly even among other Asians. We all think we are better than each other. Indians think they are better than chinese. Chinese think we are better than Indians. Like we all think our race is superior than each others, true or false, we don't care because that's okay. I like that attitude more than the twisted one in the West but frankly we had to deal with the nazis that are one of the few forms of government that had direct and open ideological motivations to genocide. What's really silly in Asia is the supposed ethnic conflict between Pakis and Indians. They're the bloody same ethnicity! At least a large part of India is. It's really a purely religious thing but they took it further than that for some reason.

Greta75 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:21:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence What's really silly in Asia is the supposed ethnic conflict between Pakis and Indians. Both races will be heavily insulted to be mistaken as each other, including the Sri lankans. Frankly, I can't tell them apart, they look the same to me, but they all think they are superior to each other and it would be a very heavy insult to mistake them as each other, as heavy as it for example, to mistake a hong kong chinese for a mainland chinese, or a taiwan chinese for a mainland chinese, or vice versa. It's not religious. I call it friendly rivalry. Although, yea, it gets violent between the indians and pakis. But then I blame it on their mass population of uneducated people. And they will disagree with you that they are the same ethnicity.

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:23:27 AM)
Both the founding fathers of India and of Pakistan were very intelligent and visionary people though so it's quite sad it has led to the situation it has. In fact people give too much credit to Gandhi and forget about Muhammed Ali Jinnah, dude was pretty fucking awesome.

Greta75 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:26:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence I like that attitude more than the twisted one in the West but frankly we had to deal with the nazis that are one of the few forms of government that had direct and open ideological motivations to genocide. Yea, it's complicated for you guys and in the US, the sensitivities towards black people, because of slavery. I think this is the problem. White people in the past, tried to eliminate a whole group of people base on race, or enslaved them base on race. So now, it's hard for them to do the race proud thing. Like I'm just thinking with Asians, we kinda think we are superior to each other but we never think of eliminating each other, wiping out an entire another ethnicity, because, we need them around to feel superior to lol.

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:30:33 AM)
Oh I mean "we" tried to eliminate them but you have certainly done "your" fair share of enslaving through brutal wars and brutal military occupation. [:)] And there is the genocide of East Timor that's just one of the nastiest little bits of human history you can find. Oh my god I almost forgot. The Khmer Rouge, sweet people. Also of course having the tacit consent by the United States and China just to poke the Vietnamese. ^.^ ... I like the Vietnamese actually! ;-) * *I'm just teasing..shh. I'll be honest with you. I think that there have been a lot better races/ethnicities/cultures out there in the world but they got crushed. The Basque culture/genome is quite unique and very pleasant. There are some isolated pockets there and there but mostly it's a bunch of imperialist savages having mixed up with those peoples they didn't kill. From Blacks to Whites to Asians and everything inbetween.

Greta75 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:40:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence Oh I mean "we" tried to eliminate them but you have certainly done "your" fair share of enslaving through brutal wars and brutal military occupation. [:)] Enslaving means, we are gonna preserve that race big time! Ha, not eliminating. Slavery is common practice anyway. Chinese people enslaved so many of their own all the time. I think the other problem is, like in the US situation, there was like more black slaves overwhelmingly than white slaves. But in China, I would say it's 50-50, chinese enslaving their own kind, and other ethnicity, and when enslaving of other ethnicity stopped, they continued to keep enslaving their own kind for a damn long time. There wasn't racial imbalance in slavery. My x-husband's family literally have a chinese slave. And I have met her. By slaves, I mean a human property with non of her own rights and she was purchased. But by the time I met her, she's already 98 yr old, still being a domestic slave in his grand-dad household. At that age, she doesn't even want freedom. It's all she knew her whole life, sold by her parents into domestic slavery since a child to this family. quote: And there is the genocide of East Timor that's just one of the nastiest little bits of human history you can find. Muslims....ha! They are another animal. quote: I like the Vietnamese actually! ;-) * In that civil war, the Viets definitely enslaved and mutilated so many of their own kind. I would say in Asian history, we have always been brutal mainly to our own kind. But it's that kind of thing, if you do it to your own people, it's never as bad as doing it to other group of people. Just like parents beating their own kid is not abuse.

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:48:20 AM)
Muslims are not Asians! :O quote: Just like parents beating their own kid is not abuse. Greta, you need to check out some of your issues mate :P quote: My x-husband's family literally have a chinese slave. And I have met her. By slaves, I mean a human property with non of her own rights and she was purchased. Oh dude, common. Do something about it <.< Seriously, either you're talking shit or you shouldn't be doing shit but acting on it. edit: 98 years old? Alright I call bullshit.

Greta75 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 5:55:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence Muslims are not Asians! :O Muslims are Asians who are tainted by their religion that makes them think differently from regular Asians. quote: My x-husband's family literally have a chinese slave. And I have met her. By slaves, I mean a human property with non of her own rights and she was purchased. Oh dude, common. Do something about it <.< Seriously, either you're talking shit or you shouldn't be doing shit but acting on it. edit: 98 years old? Alright I call bullshit. Because you don't know everything about chinese culture. It's common practice to sell a child girl in the old days, although not so far away old days, and before it was outlawed, to start working domestically for a family for the rest of her life. She's a fit 98 yr old. And she probably was the nanny of his grand-dad too, and took care of him since kid, continued just working for free domestically, with no pay for her entire life. Don't forget, Singapore is only 50 yr old. Before it was a country, we were super backwards with zero human rights. Don't forget too, it's chinese culture to not want daughters at all. Daughters are useless, so they rather sell them away and make money out of her birth. When china started the stupid one child policy, abortion of female babies went off the roof!

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 6:39:30 AM)
Well Singapore was a British colony of good repute and in China slavery was outlawed by 1910 but people felt it was wrong much earlier than that. 98 years would mean 7 years after it was outlawed, which although possible makes it even weirder than it just being any modern trafficking victim or someone who somehow was even older. What can I say, I don't believe she somehow never sought to emancipate herself during all of this time. She must have watched TV, perhaps even used the computer and if she hasn't I think that you should have taken offense with your X's familys behavior. So either way, it's not something I really want to discuss further with you.

Greta75 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/10/2016 7:01:01 AM)
Because these girls were sold as children, and from children, they were not educated, deprived of education, socializing, friends outside of the family and their only mission in life is to serve the family in any way the family ask for them. They are completely dependent on the family, isolated and know nothing else. So yes, she wouldn't have seek to escape, run away or anything else, as how would she even know that? She can't even speak mandarin or english. she only speaks her dialect. Her lifestyle is the only life she knows. I met her like when I first got married to my x-husband and he brought me to visit his grandfather. That was like way back in 2003 and she was 98 yrs old then. In many ways, she is lucky, she seems to be happy and love the family she has served. But of course in such situations, bad things could happen to young girls with no choices in life. I cannot take offense at the behaviour at all, because it was normal in chinese culture to have such girls as slave during those days. Even if I ask my parents, they will say it's normal. We have historical local TV shows depicting this as normal in Singapore in the old days. It was not illegal when it happened. It's what happens to girls from very poor families who can't afford to feed their own kids, or families who do not want their girls. Most of these girls job as a slave is mainly house work and nanny to babies. They were voluntarily sold by their parents. It's not normal now, but it was normal then. And pretty silly to get mad at what was their culture. It's like me trying to tell an Arab Muslim not to beat his wife, when it's his culture and religion to do so. I also personally think the British didn't run Singapore properly, because so many couldn't speak English or even mandarin. So many old grandmas and granddad today still could not speak English and are illiterate both in mandarin and english. I don't think they made enough efforts to make sure no child gets left behind in education. These days, every single registered birth who does not turn up in school when their age for studies comes, gets a personal knock on their door, and they will do everything possible to help the family get that child to school, if it was financial issues. This only happened when we took our own independence and start doing things properly.

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