RE: Freedom From Atheism! (Full Version)

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bounty44 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 7:09:40 AM)

no, Christians are working to prevent the murder of unborn babies.

again, since you conveniently and continually ignore the point---make the argument that people working to prevent murder are "forcing their beliefs" on those who would commit murder.

(and every other necessary argument in my last post as well)




Kirata -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 7:11:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

no gods exists and all religion is malarkey

Issuing definitive pronouncements about things they cannot possibly know is the favorite pastime of fathead religionists and atheists alike. You're just another fucking priest.

No matter what your personal experience is of the christian faith - I don't see the reason to be angry for someone that earnestly wants good things for you.

I think you mistook the point of my comment. It is one thing to believe on the basis of one's personal experience that there is something greater than this physical universe against which we bump out heads, even to believe that this greater reality is aware and responsive to human need, and to urge others to believe likewise. But it is quite another thing to insist as a matter of absolute fact that the object of one's belief is real. I don't discount the value of belief, or its ability to have real effects. But the cause of those effects may be the belief itself. Placebos demonstrate that the effects of belief can be independent of any action by the object of belief, which presents us with a rather stupendous state of affairs if you think about it.

K.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 7:11:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I would say that most of your post#134 requires a citable source to confirm what is otherwise just your opinion.

Personally, I don't believe it to be true.
In fact, quite the opposite, because Atheists tend not to be caught up in religious contention with what real life throws at them and what they believe in.
Also, from my own experience, Atheists tend to have a much broader understanding of the world at large because they tend to seek answers rather than resorting to scriptures (written my men and arguably untrue or just ficticious) to explain things away.




call it a lifetime of accumulated reading knowledge that pretty much every Christian I know would share.

if you really want to make an issue of references for it (I assume youre meaning the stuff where I say Christians live longer, etc), I suppose I could...though id rather not have to.

You are quick enough to jump on others to provide proof tho.

And you claim it is "...a lifetime of accumulated reading knowledge".
Mine is based on real life and real people, not just idle reading.
And my lifetime is a little longer than yours.
My first 2 decades were as a christian, the rest is as a non-christian.
For myself, and those I know around me, a non-christian (or more accurately, a non-religious person) has a far wider scope in life with more poignant answers than the confines that govern most pious individuals.

[sm=2cents.gif]




bounty44 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 7:27:54 AM)

no, im not "quick to jump on others"---you have absolutely no way of knowing that. in fact, I refrain from it frequently and out of courtesy to the poster, I look myself.

its a fuzzy area as to when to supply them and when to not. you can either take what I say at face value, look yourself this is especially the case is this isn't an academic forum and sometimes people are just talking) or ask me to spend an hour gathering up all that information in order to support what I, and others already know which is one of the sine qua non of NOT having to reference.

you could have politely asked the second time around, but instead you seem to want to be uppity about it and not only that, denigrate what I know as coming from "idle" reading (gee, real life and real people, I never thought of that?)

i'll be back later with all the things you are looking for...





satanscharmer -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 7:45:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I would say that most of your post#134 requires a citable source to confirm what is otherwise just your opinion.

Personally, I don't believe it to be true.
In fact, quite the opposite, because Atheists tend not to be caught up in religious contention with what real life throws at them and what they believe in.
Also, from my own experience, Atheists tend to have a much broader understanding of the world at large because they tend to seek answers rather than resorting to scriptures (written my men and arguably untrue or just ficticious) to explain things away.




I agree, though I don't have a huge sample - I haven't met a ton of atheists, or it's possible I have met more just never went into topics of religion. When asking why something happened, "because God" isn't a great answer. Though, I believe it possible for someone to seperate their belief and is sometimes used as a generic reasoning if an answer cannot be determined. Not much different than "I don't have an answer".

In terms of who is happier, I sincerely doubt that is even possible to accurately measure. I can see some Christians wanting to share their joy, but it really seems most that share are sharing their sentiment that they're right - the same with the atheists I have seen (online only) refer to Christians as "fucking morons".

I have crossed the paths of a few Christians that weren't just trying to share their joy. A few things I've been told:
"You can't be truly happy unless you accept God into your life" when mentioning to her that my daughter and I enjoy making and seeing other people happy. That seeing others around us happy makes us happier. Her version of happy was right, mine was wrong.
And
"I would really love to see you guys in heaven. I'll be there, but you won't. You're going to hell if you don't get saved."
If that's how people share their joy, they can keep it.

On the other hand, I have ONE positive example:
"My church makes me feel so great about myself." She goes into details. "If you're interested, I can give you their details."
Now, forgetting the fact that she has been more-than upset when something goes wrong, saying "I go to church. Why is this happening to me", it has been nice seeing her generally more happy and at peace than she has been in many past years. She wanted to share in that, and that's fine. But that's something that works for her.

Extremes on both sides are wrong because they assume that since they have found their happiness, that they know the key to everyone's happiness.






freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 7:58:15 AM)

Good reply charmer.

The point I was making is that in general, the less constraints you have in your thinking and thus, have better understanding of a problem and the resolution of it.
Of course, it doesn't work for everyone.
But as per your example of christians "sharing their joy", they seem oblivious to the fact that not everyone is 'into' their particular brand of enjoyment and may even take offense at having it shoved in their faces.




Greta75 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 8:39:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
no, Christians are working to prevent the murder of unborn babies.

I personally find this part really strange. God commited murder of babies himself. I believe he approves of it. He has executed it himself during Moses Era! I don't think the Christian God disapprove of abortion of innocent babies. He has proven it by his own actions.




WickedsDesire -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 9:11:01 AM)

@Cinnamongirl67 Pretty much all my life. Incidentally there are few authors who talk/write in the way/mannerisms I do. They typically punctuate a lot better than me or perhaps it’s there proof readers. Muffins and chardonnay are just a generic word(s) I use for analogy metaphysical ((any reader can insert their own over the top or a better phrase – to be very brief. (hmm I will try explain better eg muffins = good, no muffins = evil)) purposes. And don’t get me started on ancient’s texts it just takes a bit of time to get the rhythm.
OI(I deleiberatley did not corret the O or the misspelling/poor coordination in the brackers i usually tidy up a wee bity but energy is so very precious to me) – I have CFS, it has many names – that will explain the odd type, my lack of will to punctuate correctly and the odd bit of word/letter salad. I can’t keep explaining my typing all the time...It is not an act its how i type on all platforms..a firend said via text this year, i have known her 12 years) Ah! I now understand ( all)your typing, others understand it from the off – and some other hate it; nowt i can do about that. Hope that helps a little @Cinnamongirl67

Unlike me I do not always and don’t get me started on ancient texts. Personally I had a problem understanding Leo Tolstoy structure narrative and declared it mince after about 50 pages, I also struggle to understand text spake and the minds behind those writing it and anyone using more than one exclamation mark at the end of a word.

Kirata Issuing definitive pronouncements about things they cannot possibly know is the favourite pastime of fathead religionists and atheists alike. You're just another fucking priest.

A religious priest or an atheist priest? There are no gods it is that simple. All religion/scripture, tends to be borrowed/purloined from oral tradition (now I have faith in oral tradition just not a god – I believe they were referring to a more intelligent being – may have been human, a remnant of a destroyed civilizations’ and so on, or the lizard king as gergoi always says my second fav all time meme). There may be and the great fllod is always the best known and easiest one to cite there are 2000ish deluge myths across the 4 corners superior/intelligent beings – that is different – omnipotent is again different. And what gods they are referring to half the time confuses me and why their God is the correct god(s)

Back to @Cinnamongirl67 I try and put as much information into as little space as I can at times, different from text spake. I just cannot write book every time or forensically examine everyone’s words

Is someone trying to tell me god/religion or belief is a placebo? Incidentally I have talked, here and there, regarding anti depressants and placebo effects and the meager medical studies its pretty close run thing and it does not include those taking the actual tablet (that does not work on them) and in essence has the placebo effect. and nor do the studies
Notes – if pills work you take them – end off.
My apologies for this being so long most of it addresses cinnamon, but a few others who will also wonder

Realone knew fine well he would be opening a can of worms with his thread. I just no understandy why many of you didn’t start a few new related-points threads. This place could do with many more.

[image]http://cdn.collarspace.com/attachments/020616/7F7E5E4D-47A7-4EC5-9F75-3B9E36688B8E1.jpg[/image]




ifmaz -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 10:10:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
there are millions of Christians in the world. none of them are born Christian, at some point in their life they make a volitional choice. some are raised in Christian families and have the benefit of being exposed to god in that regard. others, come from non-believing families, or become believers as adults. the amount of people who "convert" to atheism from Christianity, as opposed to the reverse, is so miniscule as to not seriously invite comparison.


Many people are raised in a certain religion and never question it.

A Pew Study would seem to disprove your assertion that more people are switching to religion from atheism as "3.1% of American adults say they are atheists when asked about their religious identity, up from 1.6% in a similarly large survey in 2007".

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
and no, it does not follow that if Christians are desirous of sharing the gospel, that other religions or even atheists would desire to do the same. for one, Christians are heavily admonished by scripture to do it. second, no other faith carries with it the same imagery and narrow positioning (see mt 7:13-14 for instance) that make sharing the Christian worldview more vital.

but so what if it does---im not complaining about atheists promulgating their beliefs. again, I was just sharing a phrase to help people understand why Christians share theirs.


I believe the goal of any religion, cults included, is to increase its membership. Certain religions are more "pushy", for lack of a better word, about it; I don't see many Jewish people knocking on doors on Sundays asking if the homeowner has been saved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
of course its subjective and that in no way makes it any lesser. however, there's been plenty of work done from an "outsiders" (or objective/measurable) perspective showing Christians have a better life in many regards compared to non-believers.


Anecdotal, but I know quite a few atheists who are happier living without religious dogmas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
lastly, no one's claiming Christians have a monopoly on positive life experiences but in keeping with my statement above, Christian/church going kids abuse alcohol and drugs less, get better grades in school and are more socially connected. on the whole, Christians are generally happier, have more peace, less mental illness, live longer and are more giving than their non-believing counterparts. however, that said, those are not necessarily fundamental reasons as to why Christian's share; it is rather because they understand that before god in their lives, they were lost, and they want others to seek and be saved.


I would ask for unbiased (or reasonably unbiased, what with journalism today) sources for each of your assertions.

A recent study has shown "children who were the most altruistic came from atheist or non-religious families". Another study indicated religious people are more likely to become depressed than non-believers. Still another study shows non-believers as having higher IQs than their religious counterparts.




ifmaz -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 10:14:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I don't think I've ever seen K so riled.

For the record, a christian's motivation is - I have found something that brings me great joy and I would like to share it with you.

It seems to me that an atheists motivation is not the same. It seems to me to be - "the experiences of billions of christians through out life have no validity - put away that clap trap."

No matter what your personal experience is of the christian faith - I don't see the reason to be angry for someone that earnestly wants good things for you.


There are many, many atheists who feel the same way: I have found something that brings me great joy and I would like to share it with you.

Perhaps you don't know many atheists.



evidence of that statement is sorely needed...



call it a lifetime of accumulated reading knowledge that pretty much every atheist/non-beleiver I know would share.




bounty44 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 11:42:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

no, im not "quick to jump on others"---you have absolutely no way of knowing that. in fact, I refrain from it frequently and out of courtesy to the poster, I look myself.

its a fuzzy area as to when to supply them and when to not. you can either take what I say at face value, look yourself this is especially the case is this isn't an academic forum and sometimes people are just talking) or ask me to spend an hour gathering up all that information in order to support what I, and others already know which is one of the sine qua non of NOT having to reference.

you could have politely asked the second time around, but instead you seem to want to be uppity about it and not only that, denigrate what I know as coming from "idle" reading (gee, real life and real people, I never thought of that?)

i'll be back later with all the things you are looking for...


Christian kids get better grades:

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/on_the_front_lines_of_the_culture_wars/2011/03/why-do-church-kids-make-better-grades.html

Christian/religious kids abuse drugs and alcohol less:

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/prevention/a/take-teens-to-church.htm

http://www.aecf.org/m/resourcedoc/aecf-faithmattersRaceReligionUse-2004.pdf

from p22 of the latter reference:

quote:

A recent review of over 150 studies on drug and alcohol abuse found that people who are more highly religious are less likely to use substances and less likely to experience substance-related consequences. Existing research also suggests that religion and spirituality are related to improved treatment outcomes and continued sobriety among former substance abusers.


Christians/religious people are happier and have less psychological problems:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-are-happier-more-socially-connected-than-atheists-twitter-study-reveals-98526/

http://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/Christians-more-happy-than-atheists

http://www.reporterindia.com/new-research-shows-religious-people-are-happier-than-atheists/ [same news as above but they even know about it in india]

http://www.creationtips.com/christianadvantage.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/report-christians-live-healthier-longer-49976/

from the last site:

quote:

A new report indicates that those who believe in God not only live a healthier life but also add [up to] 14 years to their life.
According to the new report published by U.K.-based Christian Medical Fellowship, those who have faith carry positive health benefits such as coping with illness, faster recovery, as well as protection from future illnesses.

People with mental health problems, such as psychosis, also proved to cope better when religion was involved. They also showed to be more compliant with their medication.
The report notes that the mental health benefits for believers include: “well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction.”


less likely to commit suicide:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sui_reli.htm

have happier and better marriages and are more involved with their children:

https://www.thinkingchristian.net/C278308471/E20061208191002/index.html

Christian/religious people give more time and money to charity:

religious people give more:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_charity

http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/evangelicals-give-more-to-charity-study-finds.html

and just for fun, religious people are better neighbors and better citizens:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-11-15-column15_ST_N.htm

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/news/2009/05/religious-people-make-better-c.php

there are hundreds of studies that show these things... enough "idle" reading to last you years






Phydeaux -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 11:50:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

no gods exists and all religion is malarkey

Issuing definitive pronouncements about things they cannot possibly know is the favorite pastime of fathead religionists and atheists alike. You're just another fucking priest.

No matter what your personal experience is of the christian faith - I don't see the reason to be angry for someone that earnestly wants good things for you.

I think you mistook the point of my comment. It is one thing to believe on the basis of one's personal experience that there is something greater than this physical universe against which we bump out heads, even to believe that this greater reality is aware and responsive to human need, and to urge others to believe likewise. But it is quite another thing to insist as a matter of absolute fact that the object of one's belief is real. I don't discount the value of belief, or its ability to have real effects. But the cause of those effects may be the belief itself. Placebos demonstrate that the effects of belief can be independent of any action by the object of belief, which presents us with a rather stupendous state of affairs if you think about it.

K.



No, I got it. It was actually a great point, and concisely put. My response took a left turn in writing.

In response to your current post, all I can say is my life experience not once not twice but thousands of times has blessed me that I am as certain of the existence of a loving, creative God as I am of an apple.

In my youth I was a skeptic. I prayed if you're out there - prove it. Make it impossible for me not to believe. And so He did.

Many of you will look down on me as hopeless deluded. But if you had as many experiences of God - as you do of apples - of the concrete, tangible things in life - are you so sure you wouldn't believe? I have seen terrifying things, amazing things. I've been beaten, arrested, gone over a waterfall. Damn near died. Hit by cars.

God is amazing.




ifmaz -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 11:54:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/on_the_front_lines_of_the_culture_wars/2011/03/why-do-church-kids-make-better-grades.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-are-happier-more-socially-connected-than-atheists-twitter-study-reveals-98526/

http://www.creationtips.com/christianadvantage.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/report-christians-live-healthier-longer-49976/

https://www.thinkingchristian.net/C278308471/E20061208191002/index.html

http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_charity

http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/evangelicals-give-more-to-charity-study-finds.html

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/news/2009/05/religious-people-make-better-c.php


While appreciated, these are questionable sources as they are quite obviously biased.




Phydeaux -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 11:58:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
no, Christians are working to prevent the murder of unborn babies.

I personally find this part really strange. God commited murder of babies himself. I believe he approves of it. He has executed it himself during Moses Era! I don't think the Christian God disapprove of abortion of innocent babies. He has proven it by his own actions.


What God does is his domain, his prerogative.
What he has done is told us what to do. "Thou shalt not murder." The Christian belief is that God is the author of life. We shall not kill what God has created.

We don't have the option of a la carte belief; we can only be faithful.




Phydeaux -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 12:03:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/on_the_front_lines_of_the_culture_wars/2011/03/why-do-church-kids-make-better-grades.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-are-happier-more-socially-connected-than-atheists-twitter-study-reveals-98526/

http://www.creationtips.com/christianadvantage.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/report-christians-live-healthier-longer-49976/

https://www.thinkingchristian.net/C278308471/E20061208191002/index.html

http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_charity

http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/evangelicals-give-more-to-charity-study-finds.html

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/news/2009/05/religious-people-make-better-c.php


While appreciated, these are questionable sources as they are quite obviously biased.




Do you discount it because it comes from a Christian source? So quoting a muslim source is more authoritative? Even tho it references a Harvard study?
Thats like saying a scientific study is biased because a scientist made it. Shouldn't it really be experiment/the data that says whether the conclusion is valid.

Dismissing it out of hand means *you* are biased, nothing else.




satanscharmer -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 12:06:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
no, Christians are working to prevent the murder of unborn babies.

I personally find this part really strange. God commited murder of babies himself. I believe he approves of it. He has executed it himself during Moses Era! I don't think the Christian God disapprove of abortion of innocent babies. He has proven it by his own actions.


What God does is his domain, his prerogative.
What he has done is told us what to do. "Thou shalt not murder." The Christian belief is that God is the author of life. We shall not kill what God has created.

We don't have the option of a la carte belief; we can only be faithful.


Why doesn't that belief extend to things such as life support?
Man should not kill, but he's allowed to intervene and give or extend life?




bounty44 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 12:07:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/on_the_front_lines_of_the_culture_wars/2011/03/why-do-church-kids-make-better-grades.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-are-happier-more-socially-connected-than-atheists-twitter-study-reveals-98526/

http://www.creationtips.com/christianadvantage.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/report-christians-live-healthier-longer-49976/

https://www.thinkingchristian.net/C278308471/E20061208191002/index.html

http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_charity

http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/evangelicals-give-more-to-charity-study-finds.html

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/news/2009/05/religious-people-make-better-c.php


While appreciated, these are questionable sources as they are quite obviously biased.



the studies referenced in those links are university/academic or otherwise "non-Christian" studies. if you don't trust the sources to report the results accurately, you can go right to the horse's mouth (which is preferable actually) to see if they are speaking the truth or not.





Cinnamongirl67 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 12:09:20 PM)

Thank you for the reply Wickedsdesire.
So you speak in a type of unique code. Puzzle solved. [:D]
You mentioned exclamation marks. I use many when I am excited, mad, making a huge point, etc. I guess I just like them!!!!!
Hope Your CFS improves. God bless you ( may be used for a placebo effect or not) but well intended.[:D]

Sorry for the interruption, carry on folks with the debate that will never be resolved. Which makes me ponder, if my IQ was higher then normal would I be an atheist? Hmmmm. Makes me wonder. Hee hee just kidding.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 12:23:40 PM)

All of those studies are very much biased.
I didn't see any independent sources or those that were not obviously religiously based.




blnymph -> RE: Freedom From Atheism! (2/6/2016 1:01:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


For the record, a christian's motivation is - I have found something that brings me great joy and I would like to share it with you.

...

No matter what your personal experience is of the christian faith - I don't see the reason to be angry for someone that earnestly wants good things for you.


In my opinion any religion is a strictly private matter.

And I do not want yours to be forced on me. Earnestly. You can keep it but keep it to yourself. Thanks but NO thanks.

This is public exposure of things that should be kept private.

I have the same right to decide what things are good things for me than you have for deciding your good things for yourself - I do neither want nor need yours.




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