LadyPact
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Working on this with a headache, folks. Flipping barometric pressure and that junk.
quote:
ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Still with you.
With the exception that, while a person will always retain their legal right to leave, and should retain the physical ability to do so, they may or may not retain the mental ability to do so.
This was touched on in the other discussion, too. I maintain that the law supersedes BDSM, D/s, M/s, TPE, and whatever other alphabet soup, sexy fun times that we get up to. As I reside in the United States, I really do have to understand that a person wanting to leave my company has the legal right to do so AND I could be wearing prison orange if for some reason I decide I'm bigger and badder than criminal law. (Always know who the bigger Dominant is. It's a smart way to live.)
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Internal enslavement/capture bonding/Stockholm syndrome are real things. They happen to people.
I agree, they are real things. However, of the three, only one of those on your list deals with consent. The other two are associated with prisoner type situations, so I can't acquaint them with voluntary D/s. I see where you are trying to go with the parallel. I'm just having trouble making that leap from consent.
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Sometimes somebody else's will is so overpowering to your own, that they can put you in a mental state where you are no longer able (though still legally entitled, and hopefully physically cable) to withdraw consent.
Your position is a good one. This, very specifically, is why I mention in the original that the person wants to leave. Wanting to leave the other person is the first steps of someone taking their own will back.
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When that happens, you can argue till the cows come home about whether or not the person should be allowed the right to revoke consent, and that they have the legal right to revoke consent, and that they have the physical ability to walk out the door and never look back, but the fact remains that if they if they're mentally submitted to the stronger will of another to the point that they cannot conceive of disobedience, they will not leave without without permission, even if they want to.
This part is very good because I think you know me well enough to know that I'm prone to say 'submission isn't always about what you want to do'. At the same time, unless somebody's kink is to be miserable. I'd have a hard time keeping them that way. (Don't think I wouldn't indulge in their misery from time to time. Oh, sorry, my sadist is showing.)
When does "I don't want to" get to a high enough percentage of the time that a person is not happy and the relationship is no longer viable?
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You see this in abused women sometimes, where they are mentally bound to their abuser to the point of not being able to disobey him, even when it's pointed out to them that they legally have every opportunity to do so. Of course, in these types of situation, the foundation for the mental bondage is fear, which one would hope wouldn't be the case in a consensual non-consent BDSM relationship.
This is a problem. It is exactly why those of us who engage in consensual dynamics and/or BDSM are going to have trouble with legal matters. So much of what we do can look exactly what an abusive relationship looks like and the only difference that we have is about the concept of consent.
Have you ever heard of this thing called the Superman complex? It's pretty much like what it sounds. The abused party really starts to think that their abuser has Superman like powers. As in, even if s/he stabs him in the chest while the person is asleep, that person will get up and (non con sensually) beat the person who stabbed them. With the way your mind works, you might find it fascinating reading. You'd get into the psychological aspects.
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This state of mental bondage can be broken, usually by external forces who are stronger than the commanding dominant, or by the subject themselves -by means of personal growth-, or by the dominant force -because of a failure to maintain dominance-, or by an extreme change in circumstances. But even though the state can be broken, until it is broken, the subject lacks the ability to revoke consent, because they cannot conceive of disobedience.
I'm still leaning towards, when a person wants to leave, and makes the attempt to do so, it has been broken.
I've mentioned this before. One of the things I very much respect about Gorean culture is, if a person has not been Mastered, they encourage the kijara to run. Can be a smart move in some cases.
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Some people want this type of mental bondage, and so they go looking for people who will deliberately attempt to induce such a state, with varying degrees of actual success.
Agreed. Some people do. It's not just the M-types that I've heard/read (knowing them in real life, not internet BS) giving these opinions. Just as often, I hear this desire from the s-type as well. They honestly want the M to come and get them back.
In the back of my mind, I am always thinking... Yes, you say that now, because everybody is happy and you are where you want to be. Right up until, you don't.
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Lots of people who claim that they've achieve this type of mental bondage are full of shit, and are kidding themselves because it's something they'd like to be true.
I'm with you. When I don't know people, I take the stuff they spout online with a grain of salt. At least 80% and I'm seriously low balling.
Yet, I am the same person who, just today, was reminiscing about dragging someone around my kitchen floor. It was one of those "I'll put you where I want you and you'll like it" moments. Huge turn on. But, if he would have actually wanted to walk out the front door, I'd have let him go.
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Using physical force to bring back a person who rejects your authority over them isn't cool. It's illegal, and I also consider it immoral.
Again, I agree. I know, sometimes, I have some odd outlooks on consent. However, isn't that pinnacle of consent the difference between us and criminals?
_____________________________
The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT
Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD
Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.
Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread
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Let's get it on... The CnC thread - 
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