The truth comes out about Flint.

The truth comes out about Flint. (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> The truth comes out about Flint. (2/12/2016 7:12:34 PM)
LOW lights from a conservative republican. Kinda long but worth it. Read the article too, there's a little more. Matt Latimer: a speech writer for President George W. Bush, is a partner at Javelin, a communications firm and literary agency. HERE EVER since I became a conservative as a teenager growing up in the city of Flint, Mich., I’ve heard again and again from Republican leaders about their commitment to minorities and the poor. If only Republicans would get a chance to prove it. That chance has arrived in a big way. Unfortunately, my party is not taking it. For those not following this news — that is, largely my fellow conservatives — my hometown has been poisoned On Tuesday, (1/19) Rick Snyder, the state’s Republican governor, acknowledged that his government had “failed” the city’s nearly 100,000 residents. That is an understatement. His appointed task force reported late last month that the state’s environmental agency had responded to those who tried to bring attention to this unfolding tragedy with a “persistent tone of scorn and derision.” No surprise there. Nobody has ever wanted to hear about what was happening in Flint. As Water Problems Grew, (officials Belittled Complaints From Flint JAN. 20, 2016) This is not just any town but one of Michigan’s largest. The location of one of the first sit-down strikes in the United States. The once proud home of General Motors. And it was where I was born and went to school. In the decades since, nothing has seemed to go right. Because nothing has gone right. General Motors, the city’s leading employer, left. Schools closed and crumbled. Most major grocery stores departed. Houses collapsed, as if the earth was slowly swallowing up the town. We had the nation’s highest arson rate and could afford only one full-time arson inspector. The city has long been listed among the nation’s most violent. There were divisive recall elections and new mayors — almost all of them Democrats — were ushered in with new promises. But the Republicans were never there, until 2011, that is, when the first of four state-appointed emergency managers was brought in by the Snyder administration to address the city’s financial woes. The water switch was intended to save $5 million over two years. But even after residents complained about the water, and even after the City Council voted to switch back to Detroit for its water, the Snyder-appointed manager said no. Flint was not mentioned in the last Republican debate. This is the Republicans’ chance to show their worth — the chance our leaders have said they always wanted. Why haven’t they been here over the decades, running serious candidates, supporting federal aid for the city, championing pilot projects that might show what a conservative approach to urban areas might do? Why aren't they in Flint today, shipping in water bottles and holding fund-raisers for kids now condemned to lowered expectations because their brains were poisoned by lead ? It cannot be, as the left would tell us, because Flint has a large African-American population. Or that the city has always been a Democratic stronghold. That’s exactly a place Republicans should target. I think it’s because they are used to staying away. The party is accustomed to talking about policies and ideas to help urban America and then implementing them in safe, Republican-friendly areas like Idaho or Arizona. It’s not easy to go to a place where nobody knows you or likes you. It’s not easy to make change. HERE

Phydeaux -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/12/2016 8:42:46 PM)
Hmmm Matt Latimer has criticized Spencer Abraham, Nick Smith, Jon Kyl, the Dod and the Bush White House. He seems to have a track record for criticizing republicans, publishing a tell-all book - whom his former boss has claimed is rife with falsehoods. I haven't heard of the the EM vetoing a switch to DWDS. Nor does a google search reveal that. Do you have a source?

MrRodgers -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/12/2016 9:24:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Hmmm Matt Latimer has criticized Spencer Abraham, Nick Smith, Jon Kyl, the Dod and the Bush White House. He seems to have a track record for criticizing republicans, publishing a tell-all book - whom his former boss has claimed is rife with falsehoods. I haven't heard of the the EM vetoing a switch to DWDS. Nor does a google search reveal that. Do you have a source? Just Latimer so far. You even if in a slight way, I think...make his point. Repubs are all too wedded to the Reagan dictum...never diss or even criticize another repub. So you and others look for anything to question everything by even going after and questioning Latimer. This just in: Snyder said that Detroit, after being informed of the Flint council vote, sent a "letter of termination" of water service. Detroit sent a letter giving Flint one year on its existing contract, but that didn't mean Flint couldn't get water from Detroit after that date. In fact, there was a flurry of negotiations between Detroit and Flint to sign a new contract that would carry Flint through until it could connect to the under-construction pipeline. That new contract was going to cost Flint more money. This distinction is important to note because merely stating that Flint received a "letter of termination" makes it sound as if a thirsty Flint had no choice but to stick a straw in the Flint River. Flint could have elected to sign a new contract with the the Detroit water system (in fact, Flint reconnected to Detroit water after the situation in the city became a full-fledged, hair-on-fire crisis). Flint disconnected from Detroit because it was cheaper to take water from the Flint River until the new pipeline was completed. HERE More truth: City Counsel: The City Counsel voted 7-1 to switch water. But..... As for the decision to join the KWA, it was made even before Flint's elected leaders voted -- by the emergency manager Snyder had appointed to run Flint's affairs because the city was broke. The manager had total control over the city's government and the council only got to weigh in because the director of the new water authority insisted. "I said, 'I will not accept that,'" Karegnondi CEO Jeff Wright recalled in an interview with The Huffington Post. "I do require a decision of this magnitude to be voted on by the elected representatives of the people." "The governor's been trying to use that line -- that action that was taken by the city council -- to remove himself from this problem," former Flint City Council member Josh Freeman told "So That Happened," "At no time had we decided to use the Flint River... as our primary water source," said Freeman, who resigned from the council in December after serving more than 10 years. Here's what went wrong: Instead of telling the city to treat the water, the Michigan Department of Environment Quality told it to just monitor the water for a year, then decide what kind of corrosion treatment it needed, according to an MDEQ memo from November that was included in Snyder's recently released emails relating to the crisis. HERE Seems that just like the federal govt. can overreach given the power, states also given that power...also overreach and Flint really changed over way to early and many will tell you and I agree, because the EM came in, took control and told them too, making the vote only a formality even if the counsel was uninformed. Being objective, Flint was broke and according to your source, it was going to be $15 - $18 million and two years to do the job right, i.e. 2014 to 2016 if they spent the money and prepared for it. The thing is, there is no way Snyder & Co. were going to help Flint to pay for that. So.....?

Phydeaux -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/12/2016 9:30:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers But the Republicans were never there, until 2011, that is, when the first of four state-appointed emergency managers was brought in by the Snyder administration to address the city’s financial woes. The water switch was intended to save $5 million over two years. But even after residents complained about the water, and even after the City Council voted to switch back to Detroit for its water, the Snyder-appointed manager said no. So after extensive digging - it turns out that this is another example of partisan reporting. 1. The city council resolution had no force of law. 2. The mayor at the time - democrat Walling - turned down the idea. 3. Even if the council had the authority; even if the mayor hadn't vetoed the idea - Flint didn't have the money. This was ambrose's comment, in full: quote: It is incomprehensible to me that (seven) members of the Flint City Council would want to send more than $12 million a year to the system serving Southeast Michigan, even if Flint rate payers could afford it. (Lake Huron) water from Detroit is no safer than water from Flint." Again, recall that at that point the KWA timeline to provide water was June - July. Detroit was expecting a 30 year commitment to connect to solve a 3 month problem. By the way - here is an excellent source - the auditor general report - go to the end for a timeline. If you read the whole thing, it was the EPA administrator for district 5, that told Flint - over the objections of the michigan DEQ that it did not have to use corrosion control. http://www.audgen.michigan.gov/finalpdfs/15_16/l761032015.pdf

Phydeaux -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/12/2016 9:37:17 PM)
Oh - And for the record - Early - that nasty emergency manager who approved the mayor's decision to sign on - was a democrat http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/261548/democrats-filthy-flint-water-daniel-greenfield This cite: asserts all the emergency managers were democrats or political chameleons: http://rightmi.com/tag/ed-kurtz/ Good Source: http://bridgemi.com/2016/02/flint-water-disaster-timeline/

Phydeaux -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/12/2016 9:57:41 PM)
I've previously covered Detroit's offer to reconnect. DWDS was trying to kill the KWA; Flint and those others cities and counties were paying ridiculous amounts for water that was frequently unsafe. Detroit cut off the water with a short termination window in an effort to force flint to reconnect. When it offered to reconnect, it did so with a 30 year commitment Flint had already committed to KWA. Its taxpayers were on the hook for the KWA. Detroit was playing dirty pool - it had had a contract with flint for decades - it could have continued -without a long term contract if it actually wanted to protect the people of flint. But it didn't. It wanted to protect the 800+ unionized employees of DWDS.

joether -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/13/2016 9:54:19 AM)
Some poor black kid poisons another kid (whom doesn't die but has many problems becomes of the poison); he gets 10-20 years. Gov. Snyder poisons a....WHOLE CITY....of 100,000+ people; and doesn't get so much as a slap on the wrist. This nation is becoming something the founding father warned as NOT to become: a two class system. They envisioned it as 'the nobility' and 'everyone else'. Right now, laws get handled in two ways: 'Those in the Nobility" and those "Whom are Everyone Else". Gov. Snyder and his group should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But since he is in 'the nobility', he will suffer no prison time. Just like those Wall Street folks whom FUCKED with our economy. Or the Republican Senators whom wrote a letter to the head of state for Iran. Or the Representative whom created fake evidence with which to attack Mrs. Clinton on Benghazi. Or the whole of the Bush administration that stated there were "massive stockpiles of WMDs in Iraq". So long as this nation always this 'two class' system to stay in place; we'll have more problems like Flint in our future. No one is above the law. Be they Republican or Democrat. Rich or Influential. Is the DA of Michigan unable to perform his/her job? Sounds like an issue that places all other issues on hold. Or maybe we should investigate the DA and that office for corruption? Bottomline: We should clean out Gov. Snyder's bank account, the bank accounts of his 'friends' to help pay for damages they inflicted on the people of Flint!

MrRodgers -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/13/2016 10:47:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux I've previously covered Detroit's offer to reconnect. DWDS was trying to kill the KWA; Flint and those others cities and counties were paying ridiculous amounts for water that was frequently unsafe. Detroit cut off the water with a short termination window in an effort to force flint to reconnect. When it offered to reconnect, it did so with a 30 year commitment Flint had already committed to KWA. Its taxpayers were on the hook for the KWA. Detroit was playing dirty pool - it had had a contract with flint for decades - it could have continued -without a long term contract if it actually wanted to protect the people of flint. But it didn't. It wanted to protect the 800+ unionized employees of DWDS. In reply to all of your stuff, so what ? I don't care what they were, I care what they did and at whose behest. The whole affair was directed from the state (R) level and to me Latimer's whole point is that here was a republican admin. (with a $500 million state surplus) and for all we know and as far as any democrat and independent can judge is what ? They not only did nothing but even told Flint to go to hell in so many words. To be equally and more objectively partisan as far as I am concerned, the dem EM's were appt. and dem city councils voted, typically for nothing more than political cover and it works with diehard partisans like yourself. I don't know how far Latimer would go but I'll just say it's because the repubs at the state level, flat out and despite all of the early complaints...didn't give a fuck. All they are worried about and all too typically is all they worry about...is party and getting power. And as for protecting constituencies. The repubs are all about protecting their business constituencies all over this country and don't give a fuck if the great capitalist proletariat or anybody suffers from their policies. The real conservative republicans left me soon as Reagan was elected and [they] became all about party, money and power.

Phydeaux -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/13/2016 11:16:18 AM)
There is no evidence that what you say is true. Read the damn auditor's report. The only evidence we have to date says that the local democratic officials chose to switch to kwa. Local Democratic officials chose to cut off detroit water. Local Democratic officials chose to switch to the flint river water. At that point the Snyder administration gave them money that they needed, per request from Democratic officials. It was Democratic officials at the EPA that told them they did not have to do corrosion control. Over the objections of the Democratic official at the MDEQ. It was Democratic officials who falsified the water tests. It was the Democratic official who sat on the test results showing they were poisoning Flint people. So where is your evidence that this is the Republicans fault? What exactly do you think they did that was so much more egregious then these well documented Democratic faults?

thompsonx -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/13/2016 12:27:48 PM)
ORIGINAL: Phydeaux So where is your evidence that this is the Republicans fault? You may not have got the memo. The gov. said he did it and was sorry.[8\|]

MrRodgers -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/13/2016 4:21:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux There is no evidence that what you say is true. Read the damn auditor's report. The only evidence we have to date says that the local democratic officials chose to switch to kwa. Local Democratic officials chose to cut off detroit water. Local Democratic officials chose to switch to the flint river water. At that point the Snyder administration gave them money that they needed, per request from Democratic officials. It was Democratic officials at the EPA that told them they did not have to do corrosion control. Over the objections of the Democratic official at the MDEQ. It was Democratic officials who falsified the water tests. It was the Democratic official who sat on the test results showing they were poisoning Flint people. So where is your evidence that this is the Republicans fault? What exactly do you think they did that was so much more egregious then these well documented Democratic faults? You obviously didn't read my links. Almost none of what you have here is true except as I say...democrats at the local level, giving cover for the the repub state exec, branch.

MrRodgers -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/13/2016 7:48:16 PM)
Here's another link and the basis for a lawsuit and one that plaintiffs are very likely to win. Low lights: MDEQ Mistakes and Deception Created the Flint Water Crisis Phase 1. MDEQ Fails to Require Corrosion Control for Flint River Water (April 2014) Phase 2. MDEQ misinforms the USEPA about Flint’s Corrosion Control (February-March 2015) Phase 3. Walters and Del Toral Investigate the Veracity of MDEQ Statements (April to June 2015) Phase 4. MDEQ “Handles” the LCR Report, ACLU-Michigan, Virginia Tech and Miguel Del Toral (July to August 2015) FOIA Documents: Emails between MDEQ, USEPA, and Ms. LeeAnne Walters I highly suggest all of you who care read it because this lawsuit will be in the news now for some time and with good reason. The Michigan auditors report kicks everything to either Flint or the Fed EPA and tries its best to absolve MDEQ which was as likely, their goal. HERE

Phydeaux -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/13/2016 8:51:10 PM)
I read your links. Then I read the flint city minutes and the auditor's report. Your links repeat partisan crap, such as the decision was made while under an EM. The implication being v that the EM made the decision. When in fact he did not. We agree that the democrat heading the MDEQ fucked up. I've said from the beginning. The us epa told them flint didn't have to use corrosion control. And they applied monitoring standards appropriate for a town of 50k not 100k. Snyders gave the town the money they asked for within two weeks of the request. The us epa sat on the poisoning results for 8 months. Instead of parroting talking points, what exactly do you think Snyder did wrong that is so egregious compared to the multiple wrongs I've already documented that dims did?

MrRodgers -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/14/2016 12:35:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux I read your links. Then I read the flint city minutes and the auditor's report. Your links repeat partisan crap, such as the decision was made while under an EM. The implication being v that the EM made the decision. When in fact he did not. We agree that the democrat heading the MDEQ fucked up. I've said from the beginning. The us epa told them flint didn't have to use corrosion control. And they applied monitoring standards appropriate for a town of 50k not 100k. Snyders gave the town the money they asked for within two weeks of the request. The us epa sat on the poisoning results for 8 months. Instead of parroting talking points, what exactly do you think Snyder did wrong that is so egregious compared to the multiple wrongs I've already documented that dims did? My link was FOIA request for memos which demonstrated a lack of envir. management at DEQ and may well get the case to trial at the very least where it will all come out. Snyder's money was late at best because of DEQ's disregard. Plus to me, it was a problem that DEQ didn't address as promptly as they should have and from a culture of disregard. And according to my previous link, it was in fact the state appt. EM that did make the decision (he took control of the city as they stated) and the CEO (water co.) refused until the council voted on it which to me was perfunctory and only because in fact the EM was in control and ordered it. That may have prompted that one member at least to resign the council. What part of this do you not understand ? "As for the decision to join the KWA, it was made even before Flint's elected leaders voted -- by the emergency manager Snyder had appointed to run Flint's affairs because the city was broke. The manager had total control over the city's government and the council only got to weigh in because the director of the new water authority insisted. It isn't just Snyder, it is all too often repubs that refuse to correct their own very hasty and this case, costly moves simply to save money and Flint is just a glaring example...right now and not insisting on a complete understanding of the actual situation on the ground in localities for which they are as responsible as the locals. For example, there was new construction for water ongoing which could have been online this year but that wasn't good enough. So when the whole thing blows up, they kick to the problem to the fed EPA and to the locals in a shallow attempt to deflect any blame.

Phydeaux -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/14/2016 9:13:26 AM)
I don't really care about it going to trial - public policy interests me; what payouts that occur in the liability lottery do not. As for your quote quote: "As for the decision to join the KWA, it was made even before Flint's elected leaders voted -- by the emergency manager Snyder had appointed to run Flint's affairs because the city was broke. The manager had total control over the city's government and the council only got to weigh in because the director of the new water authority insisted. it is contradicted by the minutes of the city, by the sworn testimony of the mayer, and the auditor generals report. These testify that the the decision was made by the mayor, and approved by the EM. This is a self serving accusation by a democrat - the head of KWA. And it is PATENTLY false. If you read the city minutes - you see that the city continued functioning under the city council and mayer; they continued making decisions, they continued spending money. I read minutes for 3 months and found ZERO cases of the city council or mayor being overruled by the EM. Now, I'm not saying that didn't happen; clearly it did. But to say that the decisions of the city were made by the EM - is just flat out wrong. Second - even if you say the EM's were horrible (and they weren't).. THEY WERE DEMOCRATS. Time and again - you make accusations which are untrue. The USEPA had to sign off on all water decisions. It had to approve the treatment plan, water source. I can tell you from my own experience - I tried to drill a well - and couldn't do it unless I got both state and fed approval - and after over a year of fighting with them I just gave up and sold the property. I'm done arguing with you - The fact remains that the only person in this whole sorry state of affairs that you can identify as a republican is the governor. Which is what happens in places run by the democrats for 41 uninterrupted years. City council - democrats Mayor - democrat KWA - democrats Consulting engineer- democrat Senator - democrat House of Representatives - democrat Head of Public works - democrat Head of testing for flint - democrat Head of michigan Deq - democrat EPA administrator for district 5 - democrat EM - democrat And yet its the mean nasty republicans fault. Get real.

joether -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/14/2016 10:00:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux it is contradicted by the minutes of the city, by the sworn testimony of the mayer, and the auditor generals report. That would be the former Mayor of Flint. The current one took office in November of 2015 (months after the problems started). quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux And yet its the mean nasty republicans fault. Get real. WHO cut the funding at the state level, thus forcing Flint stop buying water from a safe source to use an untested one? That would be the Republicans.... So if the Republicans didn't cut the funds, NONE of this would have taken place. Therefore, its their fault!

MrRodgers -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/14/2016 11:36:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux I don't really care about it going to trial - public policy interests me; what payouts that occur in the liability lottery do not. As for your quote quote: "As for the decision to join the KWA, it was made even before Flint's elected leaders voted -- by the emergency manager Snyder had appointed to run Flint's affairs because the city was broke. The manager had total control over the city's government and the council only got to weigh in because the director of the new water authority insisted. it is contradicted by the minutes of the city, by the sworn testimony of the mayer, and the auditor generals report. These testify that the the decision was made by the mayor, and approved by the EM. This is a self serving accusation by a democrat - the head of KWA. And it is PATENTLY false. If you read the city minutes - you see that the city continued functioning under the city council and mayer; they continued making decisions, they continued spending money. I read minutes for 3 months and found ZERO cases of the city council or mayor being overruled by the EM. Now, I'm not saying that didn't happen; clearly it did. But to say that the decisions of the city were made by the EM - is just flat out wrong. Second - even if you say the EM's were horrible (and they weren't).. THEY WERE DEMOCRATS. Time and again - you make accusations which are untrue. The USEPA had to sign off on all water decisions. It had to approve the treatment plan, water source. I can tell you from my own experience - I tried to drill a well - and couldn't do it unless I got both state and fed approval - and after over a year of fighting with them I just gave up and sold the property. I'm done arguing with you - The fact remains that the only person in this whole sorry state of affairs that you can identify as a republican is the governor. Which is what happens in places run by the democrats for 41 uninterrupted years. City council - democrats Mayor - democrat KWA - democrats Consulting engineer- democrat Senator - democrat House of Representatives - democrat Head of Public works - democrat Head of testing for flint - democrat Head of michigan Deq - democrat EPA administrator for district 5 - democrat EM - democrat And yet its the mean nasty republicans fault. Get real. The governors appointees are not appointed to put in place [their] policies. They are appointed to carry out the governor's policies, namely cut Flint's spending on water. That so many people in the Flint govt. were dems is inconsequential given the states exec. takeover of Flint management and the stonewalling by MDEQ. MDEQ did the same thing with Flint having found Legionnaires disease with 87 cases that actually killed 10 people. HERE And as for party affiliation, Lartimer is a repub, blames the repub admin. of Mich. and the over all lack of repub effort to go into such cities as Flint and actually demonstrate that their polices are about governing properly at the local level.

Phydeaux -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (2/14/2016 5:23:16 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux it is contradicted by the minutes of the city, by the sworn testimony of the mayer, and the auditor generals report. That would be the former Mayor of Flint. The current one took office in November of 2015 (months after the problems started). Just as Shrillary is addressed as Madame Secretary, and Ed Koch was always "his honor" - it actually isn't necessary to qualify it as the former mayor. Bust yes, the former mayor announced the switch of water supplies and was a big booster of it. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux And yet its the mean nasty republicans fault. Get real. WHO cut the funding at the state level, thus forcing Flint stop buying water from a safe source to use an untested one? That would be the Republicans.... So if the Republicans didn't cut the funds, NONE of this would have taken place. Therefore, its their fault! Actually, flint funding that year increased 4.1 %. Figures courtesy of the state of michigan budget office. http://www.michigan.gov/budget Next lie?

thompsonx -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (3/9/2016 8:04:39 AM)
ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Actually, flint funding that year increased 4.1 %. Figures courtesy of the state of michigan budget office. http://www.michigan.gov/budget Your cite speaks of 2017.

satanscharmer -> RE: The truth comes out about Flint. (3/18/2016 5:38:28 AM)
Some video highlights of yesterday's hearing. http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/flint-water-crisis/2016/03/17/snyder-flint-water-crisis-congress-testimony/81938278/

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