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What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 8:26:55 AM

LadyPact

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Yeah, I know... Wiki and sh^t. The definition of "informed consent" is the following:

permission granted in the knowledge of the possible consequences, typically that which is given by a patient to a doctor for treatment with full knowledge of the possible risks and benefits.

It's easy to say that we play that way. Let's say, you and I agree to play with some wax. How do you make that decision that you'll play with me?

Hopefully, you'll do it based on INFORMATION. You will educate yourself about the potential risks and benefits and make an INFORMED choice. With the FULL KNOWLEDGE of what *could* happen.

If, based on that information, you choose to engage, and something does go wrong? You weren't oblivious. You knew going in. (PSA - There is ALWAYS a risk with open flame play, even if it's just wax.) I can't guarantee your safety. I can reduce your risk via education, but I can't eliminate it.

Is this the way of play or is it a concept of life? Does "informed consent" only exist in the dungeon, or is it something more. How far does the concept go?

How do you interpret "informed consent" in your day to day? What do you think you have the right to know *before* you engage? If you are not informed, do you see this as greater risk?

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 2/14/2016 8:27:04 AM >

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 8:38:24 AM

LordUnicron

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We hear a lot about consent violation from the Top side, which is as it should be. Consent violation is a definite problem, especially when the violator ought to know better or is working outside the clearly defined boundaries. I believe that consent violators, on BOTH sides of the slash, have an obligation to at a minimum apologize and try to make the situation better if they can, which if you've been following my writing you may have noticed is a recurring theme. The problem is that this paragraph reinforces the problematic and one-sided view that ONLY a Top can possibly be guilty of a consent violation, and I promise you from personal experience that this is simply not true. -From my journal. Please visit to read the entire post and see links to further commentaries that I've made on this topic on FetLife.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 8:46:04 AM

LilJuly76

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for me in regards to BDSM I have to trust and get to know the Dominant enough to know he or she will never put me in serious danger. Sometimes that takes a while to make sure I can trust them enough for play. The only exception I make to that rule is if we were recommended to each other.

my vanilla world informed consent when it comes to health care works wonders. Thankfully I have a wonderful doctor, if something comes up, she listens, than she recommends a route, I go home and do research and come back and say nay or yay, as long as I do my research when she brings ideas to me about my health, it's better to be informed before making a decision.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 8:54:33 AM

LordUnicron

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@LilJuly76: Well-said.

TL;dr: If I ask it, it's important. I ask about medical and sexual health and history, including medications, recent illnesses or injuries, joint, circulatory and breathing problems and emotional/psychological health issues and triggers. I also ask about the 48 hours immediately prior to play. Is the bottom hydrated properly? Have they eaten? Is there anything lurking in the background that may pose a problem?

If I don't know these things, or I find out later that I was not given full disclosure, informed consent and RACK play is simply not possible. And in the vanilla world, I am careful to clearly and explicitly state my hard limits with regards to interactions with others so they don't get to say later, "Oh, I didn't realize it would piss you off if I say 'Sorry' and do sweet fuck-all to fix what I fucked up." In short, informed consent is just as important in the vanilla world, it's just treated more cavalierly (generally and in my own personal experience) than it is within the lifestyle. At least if you're a D-type. If you're an s-type, then apparently consent violations rate a shrug and a "I didn't mean to!" and that's perfectly fine, for pulling shit a Top would be publicly crucified for.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 9:16:41 AM

LilJuly76

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personally in the BDSM world if a D type ever pulled the "I didn't mean to" crap with me, he be on the ground in pain, short people know how to kick in the crotch. I always and I mean always do my negotiations from day one, if he or she agrees then we continue and if he or she doesn't than well find someone else.

example:

if the D told me they want me to dress up like a little girl wearing diapers and sucking on a lolly pop, I would say no because that's out of my realm of comfort, if they persist that's what they want and I would say, you need to find someone else that is interested it.

I had another experience where a guy was masquerading as a D type so he can find girls to give him milk, I went to the store and bought it and open it and said here you go.

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Post #: 5

RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 10:00:54 AM

Wayward5oul

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LilJuly76
on the ground in pain, short people know how to kick in the crotch

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Post #: 6

RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 10:02:47 AM

LilJuly76

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see now that's where I meant to be funny, but it's true you know.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 10:06:21 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LilJuly76
see now that's where I meant to be funny, but it's true you know.

Best thing I ever learned about self-defense. In most circumstances, nobody with two hands can protect their eyes, throat, and balls at the same time.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 10:19:00 AM

LilJuly76

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yeah I think they would need to be an octopus to protect thyself. thankfully I only had two instances in my life where I needed to do self defense.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 12:46:03 PM

spellslave

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Hopefully, you'll do it based on INFORMATION. You will educate yourself about the potential risks and benefits and make an INFORMED choice. With the FULL KNOWLEDGE of what *could* happen.

^ As LadyPact said in the OP, I go by this.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 12:48:50 PM

SuaveGentleman

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I understand the tricky line you drew there.

For me informed consent comes in layers. First up, a scene needs to be discussed. I would not describe the scene minute by minute to my partner, since that completely ruins the spontaneity aspect. However, I will ask questions about her acceptance of what all I intend to do. That way, she is aware of what is coming, but has no idea of how it will actually play out in sequence. That, I found, makes her feel both safe and aroused.

And then yes, there is the obvious chance that things will go wrong. It happens all the time. I insist very strongly on safe words, and honor them to the dot. At one point a sub went "red" and I released all restraints, covered her and had her in my arms within the minute.

Other times they have not been so obvious. I have had to look keenly into the situation to gauge whether she is in discomfort but is shying away from voicing it. Granted, it takes away some of my pleasure since I have 25% of my brain processing safety in parallel. But when it comes to someone new, I would rather sacrifice that sensation to (try and) guarantee her safety.

Lastly, on the topic of some forms of "risky" play - I refrain from doing what I am not comfortable in. Does branding play / body piercings excite me? Hell yes. But I would not do it to anyone since I dont consider myself expert enough to keep someone safe while executing it.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 2:15:53 PM

satanscharmer

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I deal with risk for a living. Not something I particularly enjoy, but something I'm apparently pretty good at and I give credit to my personality. I'm always assessing risk, in everything I do, and if I'm unfamiliar with all the potentials and details then I make sure I do my due diligence. It seems like common sense to me. I place the responsibility on my own back. It is my responsibility to know and trust the top, and also my responsibility to educate myself in the activities I want to partake in. Not educating one's self is opening up for additional risk, greater risk.

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Post #: 12

RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 5:50:38 PM

mousekabob

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Informed consent is knowing exactly what my partner wants and is like in all parts of his life...not just bdsm. I accept that he's going to leave his shoes all over the house just as much as I accept he can do what he wants to me because I learned what kind of person he is and what he is looking for.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/14/2016 9:25:52 PM

littleclip

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the S side needs to make sure that the D is knolegable and skilled in the play there doing. like with wax play knowing that differn wax burns at diffrent temps and darker colors and scented ones as well. knowing that the D has the knolege and skills will keep the limits and not go beyond. for example LP is exclent with wax makes her own and keeps safty gear on hand for when things happen. i know that she has studied in depth the wax making and use and how it is applied to the skin where and how, and what to do when something goes wrong before doing it. as compared to someone who saw it in a bdsm flick and just grabs a candle and lights it. there are seirus burns 3rd degree requiring hospitilization and surgery to correct.
as a example of limits if the S says no genitial wax at all and during the play the D is realy enjoying the play and does it on the genitials anyway. as opposed to staying within the limits and asking the S if they would like to try some there before doing it and abiding the choice.
this is why one should do some checking on the D type for refrences before playing as the D should as well on the S for the same.
i am fluid bonded with my owner and trust her to keep me safe and can play as she sees fit. i trust my owner to be knoledgeable and play safely to push my boundrys and fly deeper for both of us

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Post #: 14

RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/15/2016 3:59:27 AM

longwayhome

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Big complicated question - if only because people have such different ideas about it in practice, and that can lead to life/death, prison cell/freedom, serious damage/extreme ecstasy, relationship-ender/happily-ever-after sorts of issues.

I think I know what I mean by informed consent and it includes understanding competence, how someone will react, how you really say no if necessary (safe words/signals etc.), how much someone can take and an understanding of someone's underlying values. As a result for me, if consent is to be totally meaningful, the only way of avoiding over-scripting and a complete lack of spontaneity, is knowing your play partner very well, which in itself informs the choices I make about relationships and play.

The problem is that we all know, however sensitive, smart or experienced we are, that there are practical problems to overcome, and things go wrong. Things like general consent being too general (e.g. doing what you think the other person likes), areas where competence outweighs actual consent (safe word or signals being less valuable than knowing what you are doing for serious breath play), things you both think are okay and then discover they are not, complete misjudging of risks on the part of one or both parties, consenting to the act but not the consequences, and doing things that are too complex or too risky far too early, before you really understand what consent means to both of you.

My greatest fear is being in a situation where, despite best efforts, another person and I completely misunderstand what we mean and ending up in a situation where someone gets hurt (in a way neither of you intended). Despite this fear I do enjoy play which is edgy and strays into the possibility of pushing on past my safe word. That is a complex form of consent and not something I am ever doing with someone I don't trust hugely. I enjoy being alive and in one piece too much.

In terms of the example LP gave about the wax, the two issues for me would be competence and general risk. Pain without permanent damage is not a limit for me. If I knew LP was competent, I would live with the general risk because it is not life threatening, and would not blame her if something went wrong despite her best efforts.

For me however that would either involve watching LP with someone else, or building up over a few sessions. In other words for the consent to be informed, unless I knew LP very well, I would need some evidence other than her assurances. Very safe, but hardly spontaneous.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/15/2016 7:18:11 PM

MercTech

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Informed consent.

I've been dealing with an occupation where "informed consent" plays a major legal factor. With radiation workers who are trained, informed of the hazards, and know their options for minimizing the hazards; they can be legally exposed to 5000 mRem per calendar year from operations at a licensed facility. Without the training and informed consent; the limit is the general public limit of 100 mRem per calendar year.
In a legal context; consent to engage in hazardous activities may be revoked at any time. No one can be compelled to place themselves at hazard. Rewarded for doing so; you betcha. Compelled, not so much.
Full disclosure of the hazards is needed for "informed consent". Knowingly withholding information about hazards opens the door to a whole shit storm of legal penalties and litigation.
This applies to hazardous occupations and even extreme sports.
There is one other factor that applies to edge play; one cannot consent to being intentionally harmed. Whether your local jurisdiction will prosecute is another issue. But, under most legal jurisdictions in the U.S.; consent for intentional harm does not exist under the law.
Will your local D.A. consider a spanking assault or not?

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/15/2016 8:51:19 PM

StrongSpirit

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When you get surgery you are consenting to allowing them to intentionally harm you more than a spanking. The prime example is kidney donation. There the surgery will not in anyway help or benefit you, it is clearly consent to harm you with no benefit to yourself. In fact, it is illegal for you to benefit from donating a kidney.

Similarly there are many other lesser cases where you give consent to harm - tattoos are one of the most common. They hurt. Boxing is another case where you are clearly consenting to be harmed.

In Britain, there was a legal case where they declared that you can give consent to certain sexual acts, but there are limits. Specifically, you can't consent to be maimed.

Different countries treat it very differently - and in the US it even depends on which state you are in. Federal law says that if the injury is not serious OR is part of a 'legal' sport or medical procedure, you can consent to it. But several states don't always pay attention to this.

In practice, when no blood is drawn (i.e. light spanking), the courts will consider to be not serious, and there you can consent to it. To anything more serious than that would be risky. If blood is drawn, the courts stop thinking about sports/tattoos and starts thinking about unlicensed street brawling and non-surgical knife attacks.

Knife play in particular is legally risky

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/19/2016 6:18:36 AM

LadyPact

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Nah. I just figure if you want threads about BDSM, sometimes, you have to write them.

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/19/2016 9:51:49 PM

DocStrange

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Is this the way of play or is it a concept of life? Does "informed consent" only exist in the dungeon, or is it something more. How far does the concept go?

How do you interpret "informed consent" in your day to day? What do you think you have the right to know *before* you engage? If you are not informed, do you see this as greater risk?

Informed consent plays out in day to day life in many ways. You go to the bank for a loan, you are going to sign a bunch of papers informing you of all terms, conditions, fees etc for the loan. Mainly to protect the bank (not you necessarily). Much of the information is now required by law to prevent laws suits. The informed consent (my opinion) is really meant to protect the bank in this case versus actually informing the person.

In the medical industry, informed consent plays out in you signing a bunch of papers agreeing for the doctor to treat you, agreeing you will pay whether the insurance pays or not and so on. I am not sure I would call it “informed” though. Again the doctor’s office, hospital, treatment facility is just protecting themselves. Actually informing you is really secondary. Though I did have 1 surgeon who was very up front and explicit on risks. I have had several spinal procedures done. He was always upfront on the success rate and failure rate. Also stating complications like staff infections etc. In one case I was given an experimental drug (this may explain a lot lol) for one of the procedures. This particular drug has a higher rate of anaphylactic shock and when it happened it was highly fatal. He made sure I knew and was okay with it. You see many TV ads for lawsuit for drugs having bad side effects that were never disclosed to the patients that took them. I have to give my surgeon credit, he always made sure I was totally aware of all the risks.

Informed Consent in a BDSM context for me is more of an open dialog between the 2 people. Being on the s side of things I never took for granted the M knew what she was doing ( I do not mean that in a bad way). I always made sure I know the M’s capability and experience. But also communicated if experimentation was happening in areas we both had not played before what was okay, and what was not okay. And there was always the safe word/gesture beyond that. I always made it my responsibility to be informed for my own safety.

It does make me wonder how many people play without any type of informed consent. My gut feeling tells me it is a large number but that is only my opinion.

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RE: What is INFORMED consent? - 2/19/2016 10:30:54 PM

dreamlady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange

Informed Consent in a BDSM context for me is more of an open dialog between the 2 people. Being on the s side of things I never took for granted the M knew what she was doing ( I do not mean that in a bad way). I always made sure I know the M’s capability and experience. But also communicated if experimentation was happening in areas we both had not played before what was okay, and what was not okay. And there was always the safe word/gesture beyond that. I always made it my responsibility to be informed for my own safety.

It does make me wonder how many people play without any type of informed consent. My gut feeling tells me it is a large number but that is only my opinion.

I'm sure of it considering that (in my opinion), you will find more impulsive, thrill-seeking behavior where people will sometimes choose NOT to proceed with eyes wide open.

I suppose that's part of the thrill for them, to take the plunge before they chicken out. Like taking a blind leap of faith in skydiving, not knowing for sure that your parachute got folded properly, that your response time to pull the cord on your back-up chute will suffice or whether you'll seize up in panic. Or going bungee jumping without questioning whether measurements (distance, stretch) are within safe limits. There are people do things every day without taking precautions or without questioning the word of an "expert."

That's good that you did not operate as if you automatically assumed the Dominant was infallible or all-knowing. This sadly, is often a part of the fantasy construct also, coming from both directions.

Even with informed consent, I've heard of a sub-bottom panicking and causing injury to the Top. While there's no way to anticipate every single variable, there's no excuse for acting foolishly by not taking precautions to the extent practicable.

DreamLady

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