RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (Full Version)

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ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (2/28/2016 6:11:31 PM)

quote:

I do not believe he was the messiah or God.

That he was not the messiah is obvious, as the meaning of messiah had to be changed in order to fit the lack of anything the messiah was supposed to achieve into the Jesus narative.
As for the being God, well we are all God.



Greta75 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (2/29/2016 7:36:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cindyluvNY

When one googles this question there is compelling evidence that he never existed.


The funny thing is, when I went to Christian school, they say historically without a doubt, he existed, even in secular history.

Then I went to secular school later, my history teacher who was a Christian told us also that historically, without a doubt, he existed, even in secular history lol.

Anyway, I can't be bothered to question that at all. I don't care if a man called Jesus exist and he got nailed to a cross.

He would have just been a very charismatic person who inspired followers at that time.



CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/2/2016 7:18:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cindyluvNY
Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed?

When one googles this question there is compelling evidence that he never existed.


Yes.



Cinnamongirl67 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/4/2016 5:08:20 AM)

Absolutely.



dreamlady -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/5/2016 1:59:26 AM)

No question in my mind, and that he was who he said he was, starting with Son of Man (prophet as servant), High Priest (as sacrificial Lamb of God, without spot or blemish and therefore qualified to intercede on behalf of anyone who might otherwise feel themselves unworthy), and then Son of God.

Btw, he never proclaimed himself to be the sole son of God; he was advocating a spiritual shift in consciousness where instead of being God's servants, the Jews were to now to consider themselves as God's children and could address Him as "Abba" (Father, per the Lord's Prayer), entitled to all the benefits of a parent's love, guidance, and protection. The Kingdom of God is thereby our rightful inheritance, and the great mystery is that this Kingdom is to manifest itself here on Earth.

DreamLady



Termyn8or -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/5/2016 11:50:44 PM)

Arguing this shit and nobody knows his name.

Joshua ¯ Joseph.

One of the greatest prophets ever lived. If everyone lived by his tenets the world would be a near utopia. But they do not and it is not.

Son of your god, I do not care. Able to forgive my sins ? Nope. Able to forgive those who have sinned against me ? Same answer.

Just sayin'.

T^T



Phydeaux -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/6/2016 1:59:17 AM)

The Roman historian Josephus mentions Jesus.
The solar eclipse mentioned at the time of Jesus death occurred.
The Romans did three census and a few local census' around the times of the gospel.
While there is no direct support for the slaughter of innocents, herod was widely known as a brutal ruler, killing many.

But I think the biggest bit of evidence about the existence of the man is the existence and lives of the apostles. The travels, privationss, and teachings of the apostles are pretty well documented.. People will not spend their lives and suffer enormous hardship for something they know is false.

Paul was killed for his faith. Peter was crucified upside down. Thomas died in India. Stephen (the first disciple to die) was fed to the lions. The early churchwas persecuted severely and yet expanded rapidly.

Fundamentally, Christ said I am God.
That statement really only has 3 options. Either he's right, he's wrong, or he's crazy. Christ's prediction of his resurrection is an easy test.

On easter Sunday - those had Christ not arisen - those that believed would have fallen away from their faith - their God was dead. Certainly, when raced with torture - well documented under nero - they would have recanted. And yet they did not.

Some have suggested that apostles stole the body - but would these same apostles then be martyrs for their faith?
And how would they defeat a Roman cohort that was guarding the tomb?

Fundamentally, Rome had been a pagan nation for hundreds of years - and yet within a few hundred years Christianity supplanted it. This would not be possible unless something happened. what that something was is up to you to decide.



rkfdbdsm -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/6/2016 3:30:38 AM)

Local Jewish clergy recorded the birth of Yeshua ben Miniram. Roman tax men recorded Jeshua ben Minaram. There was a Buddhist ashram in Persia that lists Joshua bin Miniram as a student. Muslim records show Jesut ben Miniram visited several of their holy sites. The dates tend to indicate all of these were the same man. (Yes, the historical Jesus was apparently seeking knowledge beyond the Torah)

Also, the story of Jesus was told by miriads of individuals, including Jesus himself. However, these "gospels" were often very short, or contained depictions of Jesus that ran counter to the needs of the church. This is why the Council of Carthage chose only 4 to include in the Bible. Dozens of these other gospels, the gnostic texts as they're called, have surfaced over the last few centuries, including one written by Mary Magdalene, anothef by Mary, mother of Jesus, and even, supposedly, a few words by Pontius Pilate. A text supposedly written by Jesus himself is one of the more hotly contested documents discovered in the last hundred years. The 1999 film Stigmata deals with The Gospel of Thomas, a real document said to be the closest thing to Jesus' actual words in sermon, though it has not stood up to the rigorous tests most of the other gnostic texts have and is considered a fake and heretical by the Catholic Church. (Note, other than the gospel of Jesus himself, almost all of the other gnostic texts are acknowledged as 'likely authentic' by the church)

Did Jesus live, in a historical sense? Absolutely! Was he charismatic, with a large following of devout disciples? Apparently. Was he the son of God? That's for each of us to determine on our own. Though supposedly, just before leaving the ashram, he declared that "We are each of us the sons of God and must act in accordance". If that's true, then one could reasonably infer that he WAS a son of God. But only one among many! Makes me, personally, wonder what the man actually taught to his followers...



Phydeaux -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/7/2016 10:12:56 PM)

Thanks, you reminded me that the Jewish Talmud refers to Jesus as the bastard son of Mary....



Dvr22999874 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/7/2016 10:27:58 PM)

rkfdbdsm............................Thank you for that. It was intelligent and intelligible and certainly totally believable; which is more than can be said for some of the rabid roarings of the ranting religious ratbags on here.



rkfdbdsm -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 1:54:06 PM)

Meh... No biggie. Hubby's folks taught at a seminary while he was growing up, he's since attanded one and been ordained, and his two favorite subjects were comparative theology and historical theology. He gave me about 8 books, started putting sticky notes in them, and insisted on explaining about 8 times more info than I actually wrote. I had heard a lot of this before, but I still get a kick out of the Catholics saying the books they've had copies of for almost 2000 years are "likely authentic". They could just as easily say "It's the truth, but not OUR truth. We'll call it 'A truth', ok?"



Dvr22999874 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 2:55:01 PM)

Those books sound like they may be compared to Robert The Bruce's war axe....................It's totally genuine except it's had a couple of new heads and a half dozen new handles since The Bruce used it *smile*.
Or the Abbot that eventually discovered a word in the bible that had been copied wrongly hundreds of years ago and never been noticed................it had been copied as 'çelibate' and should have read 'celebrate' !!!



Phydeaux -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 3:02:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkfdbdsm
. I had heard a lot of this before, but I still get a kick out of the Catholics saying the books they've had copies of for almost 2000 years are "likely authentic". They could just as easily say "It's the truth, but not OUR truth. We'll call it 'A truth', ok?"



Could you elaborate?



Cinnamongirl67 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 5:48:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkfdbdsm
. I had heard a lot of this before, but I still get a kick out of the Catholics saying the books they've had copies of for almost 2000 years are "likely authentic". They could just as easily say "It's the truth, but not OUR truth. We'll call it 'A truth', ok?"



Could you elaborate?


I'm waiting too. Please elaborate, Lady of prestige.



Dvr22999874 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 6:25:15 PM)

Why should she bother to elaborate ? your minds are made up, so why bother you with facts ? you won't believe them even if they are attested to by every judge in the land.



Cinnamongirl67 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 6:31:48 PM)

True DVR, we don't pay any attention to heresay.



Dvr22999874 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 6:36:00 PM)

Ah, like the hearsay about the sky-wizard I have heard talk of ?



ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 6:37:12 PM)

quote:

Why should she bother to elaborate ?

Because her statement was vague and unclear.



Dvr22999874 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 6:51:25 PM)

If you say so........you COULD be right.



Gambler2015 -> RE: Do You Believe Historical Jesus Actually Existed? (3/8/2016 6:57:00 PM)

quote:

Muslim records show Jesut ben Miniram visited several of their holy sites. The dates tend to indicate all of these were the same man. (Yes, the historical Jesus was apparently seeking knowledge beyond the Torah)


Really? Keeping in mind that Muhammad lived (c. 570 – June 8, 632 CE or AD) and it was during the last 22 years of his life, beginning at age 40 in 610 that Muhammad reported revelations that he believed to be from God and he preached to the people, imploring them to abandon polytheism and to worship one God. While, according to many scholars, Jesus was crucified April 3rd of 33 AD. A difference of 537+ years.



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