RE: Monogamy?

RE: Monogamy? (Full Version)

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ExiledTyrant -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 10:59:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: satanscharmer https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yRYFKcMa_Ek Ha! I knew you had a theme song!

satanscharmer -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:09:20 AM)
[:D] Hardly. But if I had to choose one it would be: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TVEhDrJzM8E

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:18:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: satanscharmer [:D] Hardly. But if I had to choose one it would be: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TVEhDrJzM8E You went with that when you could've went with this THIS WTH woman?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:22:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant Ish, I think you are overlooking your ipso facto effect, whether deliberate or a passive/aggressive stab. You're on a monogamy thread decrying all males cheat... ipso facto, all men cheat. Many insects eat the male after intercourse, ipso facto all women are life sucking monsters that will discard your carcass after they've consumed you. Sure, you can hammer away at your "Must be right" but not 100% of any species is going to cheat. So, wot are you trying to bolster here, your need to validate that 100% of all males cheat and you're right or that "ipso facto" all men cheat? Again, I haven't said that all males cheat. I've said that in all research I'm aware of, while observed, males have not turned down opportunities to cheat. You know as well as I do that you can't prove a negative. All the evidence of the existence of males cheating shows that 'males who do cheat when given the opportunity to do so exist'. It does not prove that 'males who are faithful, even when given the opportunity to cheat, do not exist'. If you can show me evidence that 'males who are faithful do exist' I'll happily retract my wording and change it to: "Most observed males, when given the opportunity, will cheat". Again, also, just because 'male animals, while observed, cheat when given the opportunity' doesn't mean 'human men cheat when given the opportunity'. In fact, there is pretty clear anecdotal evidence that human men do NOT always cheat when given the opportunity. Any woman ever turned down by a man can attest to that. In fact, I've got personal experience with (unknowingly) hitting on pair-bonded men, who have turned down the opportunity to cheat for the sole reason that they were monogamous. So if it'll make you feel better, I will literally state that I have personal knowledge of the existence of human men who do not always cheat when presented with the opportunity to do so. Invalidating the theory (at least to me) that 'all men will cheat when given the opportunity'. Which again indicates that drawing conclusions from animal behavior is fallacious. Whether it's to use pair bonded animals as natural examples of monogamy, or whether it's to use cheating animals as evidence that fidelity is impossible. If people are idiots, and draw unfounded conclusions from things that aren't stated or implied, that's not really my problem. It's not my job, nor am I interested to make it my job, to educate people to draw sound and logical conclusions from webfora. If you want to make it your job (as you currently seem to be doing) then by all means do so, and contradict me when you feel I'm wrong, or explain why one can not draw generalized conclusions from specific individual observed instances. However, if you're going to be doing so, I'd appreciated if you would stop misquoting me, by insisting that I've said "a 100% of males/men cheat" when I've done no such thing, and I've -now multiple times- clarified that I've said no such thing.

DesFIP -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:34:07 AM)
Ish is ignoring the incidence of rape among species. Wild water fowl are monogamous. If a female swan bears eggs that are not her mate's, it's not because she cheated willingly. It's because of rape. In human cultures, I don't know of any poly that do not adhere to OPP. Polygamous Mormons or Muslims, etc - it's poly for the males only. And forced upon underage females. Saying someone ought to be faithful to a partner they did not choose, who engages in spousal rape does not mean a female who finds another partner is cheating. Because she didn't consent to the relationship nor did she choose it. Unless you have the opportunity to turn it down, there is no consent. So no, if they didn't consent to this willingly, then it isn't cheating to seek another partner for some happiness.

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:35:42 AM)
Ish, I've not once misquoted you, I've direct quoted you. Squirm all you want, it is wot it is. quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Males, on the other hand, will cheat any chance they get. It doesn't matter if the female is worse or better than the one they've got, if she's letting him mate her, and he's fairly convinced his partner won't find out, he will. Notice the absence of "most" "many" " a percentage". Feel free to spin it how you will. It is wot it is. Now, if your intention wasn't to make a sweeping generalization with a passive aggressive twist, you've failed miserably and aren't salvaging the debacle at all.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:39:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Ish is ignoring the incidence of rape among species. Wild water fowl are monogamous. If a female swan bears eggs that are not her mate's, it's not because she cheated willingly. It's because of rape. I'm not ignoring the evidence for rape. I haven't addressed it because it hasn't come up. You are correct that rape among water fowl has been observed. What also has been observed is BOTH females and males willingly cheating. A certain percentage of male swans raising chicks that aren't his will be due to rape (maybe even most, I don't have data on that), but not all are the result of rape. Some are plain and simple because females made advances to other males.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:42:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant Ish, I've not once misquoted you, I've direct quoted you. Squirm all you want, it is wot it is. quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Males, on the other hand, will cheat any chance they get. It doesn't matter if the female is worse or better than the one they've got, if she's letting him mate her, and he's fairly convinced his partner won't find out, he will. Notice the absence of "most" "many" " a percentage". Feel free to spin it how you will. It is wot it is. Now, if your intention wasn't to make a sweeping generalization with a passive aggressive twist, you've failed miserably and aren't salvaging the debacle at all. Which, again, is a factual statement (at least according to the research I'm aware off). ALL males who have been observed have cheated when given the opportunity. That doesn't equal 'ALL males have cheated', because not all all males have been observed to have the opportunity to do so. 'A + B = C' does NOT equal 'A = C'. Come on, you aren't this dense. Show me a documented example of a male who has turned down the opportunity to cheat, and I'll happily retract that statement.

satanscharmer -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:42:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant quote: ORIGINAL: satanscharmer [:D] Hardly. But if I had to choose one it would be: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TVEhDrJzM8E You went with that when you could've went with this THIS WTH woman? Lol! I need to rethink my strategy.

thompsonx -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:44:09 AM)
ORIGINAL: DesFIP Ish is ignoring the incidence of rape among species. Wild water fowl are monogamous. If a female swan bears eggs that are not her mate's, it's not because she cheated willingly. It's because of rape. I remember reading that they have a fake vagina that they use while being raped?

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:51:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant Ish, I've not once misquoted you, I've direct quoted you. Squirm all you want, it is wot it is. quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Males, on the other hand, will cheat any chance they get. It doesn't matter if the female is worse or better than the one they've got, if she's letting him mate her, and he's fairly convinced his partner won't find out, he will. Notice the absence of "most" "many" " a percentage". Feel free to spin it how you will. It is wot it is. Now, if your intention wasn't to make a sweeping generalization with a passive aggressive twist, you've failed miserably and aren't salvaging the debacle at all. Which, again, is a factual statement (at least according to the research I'm aware off). ALL males who have been observed have cheated when given the opportunity. That doesn't equal 'ALL males have cheated', because not all all males have been observed to have the opportunity to do so. 'A + B = C' does NOT equal 'A = C'. Come on, you aren't this dense. Show me a documented example of a male who has turned down the opportunity to cheat, and I'll happily retract that statement. Ish, you are totally allowing your ego to cockblock reason. Now you are qualifying it with "All males who have been observed"... wouldn't it be easier to say oops rather than continue to appear bitter and jaded?

satanscharmer -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:58:26 AM)
Fr I really don't think men are much different to women in regards to cheating, or whether or not they're wired for monogamy. It is extremely difficult to accurately measure how many men cheat (though it's estimated near 50% from what I have read), and would be near impossible to determine whether or not those men would cheat if given a chance. Personally, I believe monogamy is caused by nature and nurture. Cultural and familial upbringing coupled with something that is hard-wired into our brains. I'm curious on personal observations. Strictly monogamous couples often times seem to be very territorial to me. Is this something that happens in open or poly relationships?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 11:59:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant Ish, you are totally allowing your ego to cockblock reason. Now you are qualifying it with "All males who have been observed"... wouldn't it be easier to say oops rather than continue to appear bitter and jaded? Nope, because I'm not cockblocking reason. I've stated multiple times that I'm more than willing to change my opinion if you show me evidence that I'm wrong. And of course I'm talking about 'all males observed' we don't actually had scientific data on things that we haven't observed, now have we? If you want to project emotion on me and presume that I'm bitter and jaded, have at it, though I have a hard time picturing exactly what I'm supposed to be bitter and jaded about, because I'm neither monogamous, nor have I ever been cheated on, so it's not like I've got a vested stake in giving a fuck about the fact that male animals have been observed cheating in every species we have documentation on. Especially not, considering that I've also already said that I know from personal experience that human men do NOT always cheat, considering that I've been turned down by them before. Heck considering that I'm not monogamous, and tend to be pretty selfish when I want to fuck somebody, IF I had anything to be bitter and jaded about, it would be that human men don't cheat ENOUGH (because their lack of cheating has caused me the personal embarrassment of being turned down when I was trying to get some of them in bed). It's you who is cockblocking reason, by your continued insistence that "A + B = C" means exactly the same thing as "A = C", and your refusal to acknowledge that a negative cannot be proven.

satanscharmer -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 12:04:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Heck considering that I'm not monogamous, and tend to be pretty selfish when I want to fuck somebody, IF I had anything to be bitter and jaded about, it would be that human men don't cheat ENOUGH (because their lack of cheating has caused me the personal embarrassment of being turned down when I was trying to get some of them in bed). That sounds like anecdotal evidence that some men do not cheat even if given the chance...or is this a hypothetical and not something that has actually happened.

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 12:05:39 PM)
Ish, I'm not going to continue to quote you over and over again. Apparently you have a special filter that allows you to inject words into your statements that are not visible to other readers. So we will just have to settle on "Males, on the other hand..." has evolved to "Observed males, on the other hand..." I don't have any issue with your "observations" I have issues with your initial sweeping statement that you continue to deflect.

tj444 -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 12:10:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: satanscharmer quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Heck considering that I'm not monogamous, and tend to be pretty selfish when I want to fuck somebody, IF I had anything to be bitter and jaded about, it would be that human men don't cheat ENOUGH (because their lack of cheating has caused me the personal embarrassment of being turned down when I was trying to get some of them in bed). That sounds like anecdotal evidence that some men do not cheat even if given the chance...or is this a hypothetical and not something that has actually happened. but not all men are hetro so some men (like gay dudes, especially the really cute ones) will tend to turn down women, even given the "chance"... just sayin'.. [;)]

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 12:14:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant Ish, I'm not going to continue to quote you over and over again. Apparently you have a special filter that allows you to inject words into your statements that are not visible to other readers. So we will just have to settle on "Males, on the other hand..." has evolved to "Observed males, on the other hand..." I don't have any issue with your "observations" I have issues with your initial sweeping statement that you continue to deflect. The fact that I was speaking of 'observed males' has always been stipulated. That entire section started with the preface: "So far, we haven't found a single species that's actually sexually faithful though. While there are animals who pair up for life, we have found that in all of them, between 10% and 40% of the young are not genetically related to the male that's raising them." I made it very clear that we were speaking of OBSERVED behavior, things we have conclude via means of research, and I left plenty of room for there being behavior that was not yet observed, and that new observations can very well change our current understanding. Just because you quote out of context, on a specific sentence that was not prefaced by the fact that I was speaking of observed behavior, doesn't mean that I made a sweeping generalization, until stated otherwise. When speaking of scientific things, such changes in prefacing are usually made by "Observation is XYZ. Speculation based on the observation is ABC". To actually make a sweeping generalization: Nobody, including yourself, prefaces, and re-prefaces, and re-prefaces every single sentence they write, every single time. When a prefaces is made, to indicate what type of thing the speaker is talking about, it's generally assumed to apply to the entire subject. I said from the beginning: "We have found that (observed), when males are given the opportunity, they cheat." = "We have found that (observed) that when A + B = C"... You can try to make that into "We have found that (observed) A = C" all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 12:21:08 PM)
Incidentally... Why is it that you're so intent on making this discussion personal (IE, I hold the position that I do because I'm jaded and bitter, instead, for example, to assume that I'm plainly wrong and uninformed)? Why is it that it seems that the only way you can cope with me holding my position is by writing it off as me being emotional about the subject? And that's not meant as a jab at you... I'm genuinely interested why you seem to think that me -a woman- cannot have an opinion about cheating behavior in male animals UNLESS it's caused by jadedness and bitterness? If a man had come in and made the same argument, would you have accused him of being bitter and jaded as well?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 12:25:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: satanscharmer quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Heck considering that I'm not monogamous, and tend to be pretty selfish when I want to fuck somebody, IF I had anything to be bitter and jaded about, it would be that human men don't cheat ENOUGH (because their lack of cheating has caused me the personal embarrassment of being turned down when I was trying to get some of them in bed). That sounds like anecdotal evidence that some men do not cheat even if given the chance...or is this a hypothetical and not something that has actually happened. Nope, not a hypothetical, as I've stated before in post #144 (and you might have missed it, because these posts are getting rather tedious and repetitive): I have personal experience with hitting on men whom I didn't know where in a relationship (in bars, primarily) making it very clear that I wanted to fuck them. On multiple occasions, I've been turned down by such men, because they were monogamous. They'd tell me they have a girlfriend, and say 'thanks but no thanks'. So me, personally, I am absolutely 100% convinced that not all human men cheat when given the opportunity to do so. Whether that convinces others as well all depends on how willing they are to accept anecdotal evidence in this instance. I'm not convinced that male animals will refuse the opportunity to cheat, because I haven't seen a single documented example of that happening. I think that the difference comes down to integrity and ethics. Human men are capable of both of those, and thus, an ethical man with integrity will turn down the opportunity to cheat when he is in a monogamous relationship, even if biologically he might have the urge to cheat. I think humans have the capacity to use their ethics to override biological drives, and it's my hypothesis that human men who have turned down the opportunity to cheat with me have done so because they've ignored their biological instinct to do so, in favor of taking a ethical approach. I think that male animals have not been observed to turn down the opportunity to cheat, because male animals do not have ethics and integrity, and so they are subject to their biological urge to procreate, with nothing but the fear of getting caught (and losing their mate) to stop them from doing so. Incidentally, I think it's exactly our capacity to ignore our instinct, and do what we feel is morally right instead, that separates us from animals, more so than any other thing. As far as I'm aware, we're the only thing on this Earth in control of our own biology.

LadyPact -> RE: Monogamy? (3/9/2016 12:34:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Incidentally... Why is it that you're so intent on making this discussion personal (IE, I hold the position that I do because I'm jaded and bitter, instead, for example, to assume that I'm plainly wrong and uninformed)? Why is it that it seems that the only way you can cope with me holding my position is by writing it off as me being emotional about the subject? And that's not meant as a jab at you... I'm genuinely interested why you seem to think that me -a woman- cannot have an opinion about cheating behavior in male animals UNLESS it's caused by jadedness and bitterness? If a man had come in and made the same argument, would you have accused him of being bitter and jaded as well? Nah. Both of you know and study people more than that. All of this talk about various species, mating for life, and all that.. Let's say we haven't really established that for people. What we really have to go on is the way that people feel about it. For all we know, fidelity (either in monogamy or poly) might be one of a person's core virtues. A simple slip of a word or misunderstanding gets close. How horrible would it be if I came in here and stomped all over the OP's (or her Dominant's) dedication to monogamy in their relationship? I'd be attacking their core values (as they see it). It's how they identify and I'd be a jerk for doubting their word.

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