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RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 1:14:46 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/171685.pdf

I guess it is true....

Belgium has no Haarlem and is not the Netherlands, and the EU (even though it is still sovereign states each with their own internal laws and customs) was a bit after your time, oder?

After my time? I have no idea what that even means, considering that I'm still a Belgian citizen (not an American) and that will never change.

Besides that the formation of the modern EU predates me moving to the US by almost 20 years.

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Post #: 81

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 1:20:49 PM

Cinnamongirl67

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Help us or die.
No one cares about us I can guarantee.

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Post #: 82

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 1:28:21 PM

ThatDizzyChick

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quote:

No one cares about us I can guarantee.

And yet so many went to war on your behalf after 9/11.

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Post #: 83

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 1:44:14 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Belgium has a strong monarchy over parliament.

And not that it's relevant to the thread, but just because uninformed statements like that presented as fact piss me off:

Belgium doesn't even have a King.

As defined by the constitution, the King is King of the Belgians, not the King of Belgium.
In order words, he's a direct representative of the people, and for the people. His duty is to his subjects, not to the land, and he's got no claim or duty to the country itself. The sovereignty of Belgium as a country belongs to it's people, not to the King.

A Belgian monarch ascends the throne, only after swearing to the Constitution to the two houses of parliament. Considering that it's a popular monarchy -unlike any other currently in existence- the constitution allows for the Belgians, by means of elected government representation, to reject the King, and to refuse him the throne.

It's a distinction that's extremely important, both to Belgians, as well as the Royal family themselves (and they have historically always taken that distinction extremely serious).

As the representative of the people, it is the King's is bound by the Constitution more so than any other citizen, and it's his duty to act as the arbiter of the Belgians collective common conscious against the government, and to see that the will of the people is upheld by the government. He does this by signing laws into effect, after he's ethically decided that the law is indeed the will of the people, and is duty bound to refuse to sign laws he considers against his people's desires. At the same time, the King cannot make law, he can only approve it or reject it.

The only point in our short history (Belgium is a considerably younger country than the US) where it's ever been an issue is when the government asked the King to sign the abortion law into effect in 1990, which the King, as a private person and a devout Catholic could no ethically condone, while as an official representative of the people could not refuse because it was what the people wanted. Considering that he's constitutionally bound to place the interest of the Belgians above his own, he had no choice put to support the law, even though he personally rejected it.

The whole matter was solved by the King declaring himself "unable to rule" for a period of time, which is a provision made in case he's ill, or otherwise unable to fulfill his duty, at which point the Prime Minister signed the law into effect.

A monarchy over parliament? The King of the Belgians does not even stand in the way of the democratic desire of the people he serves when the will of the people demands of him to breach his own more core personal ethical and religious believes.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 3/23/2016 1:59:27 PM >

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Post #: 84

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 1:59:52 PM

mnottertail

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Piss you off or not, the misnformation is not mine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_of_Belgium

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/171685.pdf
http://www.euro-islam.info/country-profiles/belgium/
http://www.ijmsonline.org/archives/444

ad nauseam.

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Post #: 85

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 2:07:16 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Piss you off or not, the misnformation is not mine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_of_Belgium

That link directly supports everything I have just said, and explicitly names Filip as King of the Belgians, not of Belgium, as well as specifying that he was sworn in as King.

There is nothing at all in that article that even remotely indicates that Belgium has a monarchy over parliament.

Likewise none of your other links even remotely support an argument for Belgium being even remotely being a 'religious state'.

Your 'misinformation' isn't at all supported by the links you've just provided, as you have made claims about Belgium that are not supported by your links.

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Post #: 86

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 2:29:59 PM

mnottertail

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I understand English pretty well.

What is the fucking difference between King of Belgium and King of Belgians?

I put in king of norwegians, I get the king of norway
I put in king of spaniards, I get the king of spain.

In English, what is the difference?

He calls the government, he quits and is rehired when he wants, he is in a hereditary office, not by Althing.

And my many (which was the point of it) cites of the state sponsorship and subsidy of religion put those guys there, not socio-democratic policy. Those are in no wise equivalent.

Have it your way, he is king of the Belgians, and we will all still call him the King of Belgium.
It is no more than a fucking affectation.

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Post #: 87

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 2:34:41 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I understand English pretty well.

What is the fucking difference between King of Belgium and King of Belgians?

The difference is that he's King by election of the people, and that he's bound by the constitution instead of standing above it. Unlike a traditional monarch, he has no power to create laws.

The King of Norway is not the King of Norwegians. He's the King of the land. His domain is over the territory of Norway.

The Belgian King does not have domain over the territory of Belgium.
He's, by popular elect, the King of the Belgians, and the servant of his people. He has no claim over the country of Belgium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_monarchy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Belgium

It matters on a whole slew of issues. For example, the King of Belgians does not have subjects (and would never refer to Belgians as his subjects), he has 'fellow country men'. He's King, by grace of the Belgians, not by the grace of God, and he doesn't 'rule' Belgians, but represents them.

I'm sorry that your language apparently doesn't have the capacity to accurately translate the distinction when it's said that the current King is Filip of Belgium (literally translated of "Filip from Belgium") but the fact that the nuance is lost in that specific translation doesn't make him the King of Belgium (nor is that his official tittle in English, it's "King of Belgians").

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 3/23/2016 2:46:29 PM >

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Post #: 88

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 2:43:31 PM

mnottertail

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The King Elected?

Looks like blood-lines heredity to me. Please provide cites of the many King elections there, how often they are elected, and so on. I know there was a non-binding referendum on the return of Leopold some years ago. I for one would love to be enlightened because..........well, never have we in the west (even all that time I was in Europe) heard of this wondrous thing.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/23/2016 2:46:40 PM >

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Post #: 89

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 2:46:37 PM

ThatDizzyChick

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Typical fucking Yank, shooting their mouth off without knowing what the fuck he is talking about.

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Post #: 90

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 2:48:41 PM

mnottertail

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Wonder who that might be?

Funny bunch of pissflaps here though.

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Post #: 91

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 2:51:51 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The King Elected?

Looks like blood-lines heredity to me. Please provide cites of the many King elections there, how often they are elected, and so on. I know there was a non-binding referendum on the return of Leopold some years ago. I for one would love to be enlightened because..........well, never have we in the west (even all that time I was in Europe) heard of this wondrous thing.

The King is elected every time before ascending the throne, by parliament.

Ascension is not guaranteed, just because of blood lines.

Just like the original King was offered the throne by elected representatives, so again was every King after him. The Constitution guarantees that the King may be rejected ascension any time, for any reason, if the people so wish it, and that the monarchy can be dissolved at any time.

Belgium has a monarchy because the King was OFFERED the throne originally, and every King since has been offered the throne, by the Belgian people.

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Post #: 92

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 2:54:52 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The King Elected?

From the Wiki:

quote:

The proper title of the Belgian monarch is King of the Belgians rather than King of Belgium. The title indicates a popular monarchy linked to the people of Belgium (i.e., a hereditary head of state; yet ratified by popular will), whereas King of Belgium would indicate standard constitutional or absolute monarchy linked to territory or state.[1] For example, in 1830, King Louis Philippe was proclaimed King of the French rather than King of France. The Greek monarch was titled King of the Hellenes, indicating a personal link with the people, not just the state. Moreover, the Latin translation of King of Belgium would have been Rex Belgii, which, from 1815, was the name for the King of the Netherlands. Therefore, the Belgian separatists (i.e. the founders of Belgium) chose Rex Belgarum.[2]
Belgium is the only current European monarchy that does not apply the tradition of the new monarch automatically ascending the throne upon the death or abdication of the previous monarch. According to Article 91 of the Belgian constitution, the monarch accedes to the throne only upon taking a constitutional oath before a joint session of the two Houses of Parliament.[24] The joint session has to be held within ten days of the death of the deceased or abdicated king. The new Belgian monarch is required to take the Belgian constitutional oath, "I swear to observe the Constitution and the laws of the Belgian people, to maintain the national independence and the integrity of the territory," which is uttered in the three official languages: French, Dutch, and German.

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Post #: 93

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 3:02:39 PM

mnottertail

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Phillipe was elected in what year? How did you vote? How many other guys ran for king that year? How long is he voted for? Or was he installed by parlimentary referendum (you know, he aint blind, crippled or crazy so good to go) in proforma fashion?

What was the actual vote for him, and for each of them other kings?

Again, an affectation. What king or queen in the parliamentary and constitutional systems (and even before) with the exception of Scandinavian Althings have not done that?

Althings were direct elections every year for the king. Of course he ran unopposed, or was killed to make way for the new King.

Nothing different about the King of Belgium than Old Cabbage and the big cloth-eared bints she has calfed, and for centuries before.

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Post #: 94

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 3:04:16 PM

PeonForHer

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FR

I don't care about the monarch. What *I* can't get over is Belgium being younger than the USA. I mean, Jesus, the USA was only founded two weeks ago last Tuesday.

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Post #: 95

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 3:05:18 PM

UllrsIshtar

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From the Dutch Wiki:

quote:

Leopold was de eerste Koning der Belgen omdat zij hem zelf hun kroon hadden aangeboden. Dit heeft nog steeds gevolgen. De Koning der Belgen wordt koning bij de gratie van zijn landgenoten, niet bij de gratie Gods. De koning staat daarmee niet boven België, vandaar dat de koning spreekt over landgenoten en niet over onderdanen. De Koning der Belgen neemt de troon in bezit nadat hij de Belgen heeft beloofd dat hij de onafhankelijkheid zal handhaven.[1] Maar de troon is van de Belgen en niet van de koning in persoon, hij mag de troon van de Belgen gebruiken in ruil voor zijn eed. De koning moet aan zijn landgenoten, vertegenwoordigd in het parlement, verantwoording afleggen. De macht is namelijk van het volk en niet omgekeerd. Uiteraard moet de koning neutraal zijn, hij fungeert als een soort scheidsrechter. Hij kan geen contracten afsluiten in zijn naam, zelfs niet privé.

Leopold was the first King of Belgians because he was offered the throne. This fact has certain impacts, The King of Belgians is king by grace of his fellow country men, not by the grace of God. The King therefore does not rule over Belgium, no is he above it. It's because of this that the King will speak of his fellow country men, not his subjects. The King of Belgians resides over the throne of Belgium after he has sworn to the Belgians that he will protect their independence. But the throne does not belong to the king, but to the Belgian people, he is offered the use of the throne in exchange for his oath. The King has to justify himself to his fellow country men, and their representatives in parliament. This is because the power of his station belongs the people, and not to himself, instead of the other way around, and he has to justify to the people how he is using the power granted to him by them. The King is required to be neutral, he is expected to serve as a referee of sorts. He is not permitted to have personal standing in a contract, not even as a private individual.

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Post #: 96

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 3:07:55 PM

mnottertail

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http://www.royal.gov.uk/ImagesandBroadcasts/Historic%20speeches%20and%20broadcasts/CoronationOath2June1953.aspx

OO-er, Old Cabbage must recite the magic words too, so ol Phil aint so unique in this.

Royalists got long noses for lookin down on ya, but they are stupider than any Tory puts his dick in a dead pigs mouth.

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Post #: 97

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 3:13:03 PM

mnottertail

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Insofar as offering, the swedes couldnt get there peckers up, and had to import their royalty. William of Orange and George of Hanover were invited. Old Cabbages family were invited Krauts.

Nothing new under the sun.

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Post #: 98

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 3:13:55 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Phillipe was elected in what year? How did you vote? How many other guys ran for king that year? How long is he voted for? Or was he installed by parlimentary referendum (you know, he aint blind, crippled or crazy so good to go) in proforma fashion?

He was sworn in by parliament in 2013.

He was voted for by the Belgian people voting for political representatives who are either pro, or against the monarchy (among other political issues) in 2010.

As per usual, the only party who is against the monarchy disastrously lost the election, and their representation in parliament voted against swearing him in, but lost the vote (I don't know by how many votes, and I don't feel like looking it up).

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Post #: 99

RE: Brussels, Belgium - 3/23/2016 3:15:56 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

I don't care about the monarch. What *I* can't get over is Belgium being younger than the USA. I mean, Jesus, the USA was only founded two weeks ago last Tuesday.

I know. Everybody is always surprised to find out that the US predates us by over 50 years.