RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/28/2016 8:27:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterBrentC

Jaguar, Republicans haven't done a damn thing to Obamacare. I defy you to name just one.


Well, first of all, it was a Republican idea in the first place. Chuck Grassley was jumping up and down about it back in the day.
Secondly, they blocked a public option (Baucus, and Grassley)
Thirdly, even though claim they are for competition across state lines. Their insurance lobby donors convinced them to block that too.

Now Cruz is supporting the idea. It would never happen in a Cruz administration.

So there is 3


Completely wrong. The had complete, filibuster proof majorities. They couldn't pass single payer because of opposition within there own party.
Second - while it is true that one wing of the republican party advanced these ideas (Cato, heritage) they were widely discredited in the late 90's. Saying they were republican ideas, without saying they were republican ideas that were discarded is disingenuous.
Three. Go back to #1. The republicans did not have the votes to block a single thing.

The republicans did not offer a substantive amendment - Reid filled the amendment tree on the bill, preventing it. Negotiations were not done under normal rule, aka in committe. There are not congressional records of the negotiations. Rather, the negotiations were hammered out among democratic operatives off -site.




Greta75 -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/28/2016 11:36:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterBrentC

Thompsonx...... The insurance companies could only sell within the state they were in. I live in Texas and I am prohibited by law to go outside the state of Texas for insurance. It's been that way my entire lifetime.

I never understand this state to state thingy. With health insurance especially. It's super important they got the masses across the board to get cheaper. If the government can't do negotiation for the whole country, competition should definitely be nation-wide. Prices will drop!

Government should provide website to do easy comparison of rates and benefits. That will force health insurers to be competitive well priced to be the preferred provider.




Greta75 -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/28/2016 11:39:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Yeah I will go with that. I was 21 when you were still wearing short pants. I am quite aware of what medical cost were, and a doctors visit was somewhat more than $20.

This is so super ridiculous on so many levels! Are you saying doctors visit is priced exactly the same EVERYWHERE, in ALL states in the US?
Just because you exist during that time, and your doctor didn't cost that little, doesn't mean somewhere in the US can't have cheaper doctors.

BTW, it's still $20 to $30 here to see a private doctor, depending on which clinics. Government clinics are $12. Prices never changed since I was a kid in my own country. Well the government clinics increased from $8 to $12.
It always puzzles me why GP is so damn expensive in the US.

I was just thinking also, $20 in the 1960's is like super duper expensive. Isn't that like the equivalent of $200 in today's value? Not sure how inflation has risen since the 1960's in the US.




mnottertail -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/29/2016 3:49:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i suppose picking up on a spelling error is much better than nutsuckering, asswiping, felching and slobberblogging.

in the meantime, imagine if our shyster president where not the president, but were instead a salesman (gee, he was kinda that wasn't he?) or an agent supposedly acting on our behalf (gee he was kinda that too wasn't he?), he would have been sued for fraudulent misrepresentation.

Imagine that we dismantle the insurance companies and have national single payer. Strip them of their assets as terrorists, and hang them for treason.

The fraud is perped here by the insurance companies, the nutsuckers, the lobbyists, and the felching nutsucker corporate catamite.

The error in spelling was the least of the problems with the asswipe posted.

Horseshit is horseshit, I pointed out the smallest pile.

Asswipe is asswipe, there is nothing but felch from the nutsuckers and their slobberbloggers.




bounty44 -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/29/2016 4:41:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AGuyNamedDave

And just exactly what did the GOP have to offer in terms of anything resembling a change to the screwed-up healthcare system in the US?

The ACA is far from great (barely even "good") but until Congress can get its head out of its collective ass and create some thing better we're pretty much stuck with it.

Whining about it at this point is like a 5yo throwing a tantrum.


um, sorry dave, there were plenty of republican alternatives that were discussed at the time, and that are still being discussed today. the notion that the gop had "nothing" is either an outright lie, or a myth repeated by people not paying close attention.

and your question by the way, supports this false premise that its the government's job to be involved in the health care system in the first place.

and no, "whining about it at this point" isn't like a 5 yr old throwing a tantrum, its a just criticism of liberal processes and outcomes that one can tuck away for future references, as well as to be used to address present concerns.




mnottertail -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/29/2016 4:43:45 AM)

Uh, no there were not. tort reform,thats it, hallucinatory pure nutsucker asswipe. The premise that healthcare is a right that should be protected by the government is not false.

There are no alternatives other than repeal and fuck you from the nutsuckers, nothing.




Phydeaux -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/29/2016 7:53:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, no there were not. tort reform,thats it, hallucinatory pure nutsucker asswipe. The premise that healthcare is a right that should be protected by the government is not false.

There are no alternatives other than repeal and fuck you from the nutsuckers, nothing.


Factually untrue. Two fairly detailed plans were advanced. I don't happen to agree with either of them. As bounty noted, I don't think its the federal government's job to ensure you have healthcare. EMTAALA was a huge mistake.

But regardless of that, two republican concepts that have widespread support are Health Savings accounts (which Obamacare went out of its way to destroy) and the process that was used for medicare advantage, ie., subsidizing expensive patients.




mnottertail -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/29/2016 8:19:41 AM)

Medicare advantage is alive and well, from the 1970s and Nixon and the Nutsuckers disaster with their HMO disasters, robbed the public, enriched the insurance industry, and rationed healthcare.

MSAs are alive and well, havent changed much at all since Clinton championed them and got them thru congress. (95-96? somewhere in there anyhow)
HSAs are alive and well, and havent changed much since W signed them into law. (2003)

Obamacare became law in 2009 and was elected in 2008 and thats when we started talking about this, so the regressive nutsuckers came up with ideas that already existed and were law after the fact?

That was there plan? Nutsuckers will not rewrite history they are too fucking stupid, people see them.


So, nutsuckers are good at parroting asswipe, lets see some credible citations in the timeframe of their detailed plans, so that we may read them, and consider.

And trust me dont cut it for nutsuckers, they are shown to be of shoddy quality asswipe.




MasterJaguar01 -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/29/2016 8:39:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: MasterBrentC

Let the health insurance companies cross state lines and sell to anyone. The free market will allow people to find an affordable policy that they want without the government involved.

That is pretty much what we had before isn't it?



No, it is not what we had before. Republicans, and their insurance company donors won'the allow it. Just like Republicans, and their big Pharma donors won'the allow individuals and payers to find the best price for drugs.

2 free market principles which will help reign in the cost of healthcare. Both blocked by Republicans (and some Democrats).

Cruz and Trump talk about selling plans across state lines all the time. It will never happen until Congress is our of the pockets of the insurance and pharmaceutical lobby




AtUrCervix -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/29/2016 7:21:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: MasterBrentC

It still amazes me (I don't know why) that the dumbocrats want to blame the G.O.P. for Obamacare. They didn't have the votes to stop it and not a single G.O.P. member of Congress voted for it. So, for the disaster that the A.C.A. is and has become, it's all on the hands of the dumbocrats. Own it.

What would you sugest in the way of health coverage in the usa?



Other than.




Phydeaux -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/29/2016 11:25:04 PM)

Succint. Bravo.




mnottertail -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/30/2016 7:21:47 AM)

And as regressively useless as the most detailed (of which there are none whatsoever) nutsucker plans.




bounty44 -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/30/2016 8:09:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

um, sorry dave, there were plenty of republican alternatives that were discussed at the time, and that are still being discussed today. the notion that the gop had "nothing" is either an outright lie, or a myth repeated by people not paying close attention.

and your question by the way, supports this false premise that its the government's job to be involved in the health care system in the first place.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, no there were not. tort reform,thats it, hallucinatory pure nutsucker asswipe. The premise that healthcare is a right that should be protected by the government is not false.

There are no alternatives other than repeal and fuck you from the nutsuckers, nothing.


so which one are you in the equation? the outright liar? or the myth perpetuator who wasn't paying attention?

quote:

The premise that healthcare is a right that should be protected by the government is not false.


spoken like a true liberal comrade collectivist.




mnottertail -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/30/2016 8:21:25 AM)

As I have pointed out my bolshevik friend, I am the one reciting the facts.

As often as nutsuckers can tag slobbering nutsucker blogs, seems to me a trivial thing to pull up a cite of the bill of these detailed plans of healthcare.

But nutsucker toiletlicking, falsehoods, hallucinations, spewing smears and innuendos and felching every imbecile about is what is spoken like a real country destroying communist nutsucker.




bounty44 -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/30/2016 8:21:29 AM)

some arguments from the non-communist/socialist/progressive/liberal/collectivist position:

[from 20ish yrs ago mind you when hillarycare was in vogue]

"Health Care Is Not a Right"

quote:

...Of course, it is impractical—it does not work—but I hold that it is impractical because it is immoral...

What is morality in this context? The American concept of it is officially stated in the Declaration of Independence. It upholds man's unalienable, individual rights. The term "rights," note, is a moral (not just a political) term; it tells us that a certain course of behavior is right, sanctioned, proper, a prerogative to be respected by others, not interfered with—and that anyone who violates a man's rights is: wrong, morally wrong, unsanctioned, evil.

Now our only rights, the American viewpoint continues, are the rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness. That's all. According to the Founding Fathers, we are not born with a right to a trip to Disneyland, or a meal at Mcdonald's, or a kidney dialysis (nor with the 18th-century equivalent of these things). We have certain specific rights—and only these.

Why only these? Observe that all legitimate rights have one thing in common: they are rights to action, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. The system guarantees you the chance to work for what you want—not to be given it without effort by somebody else.

The right to life, e.g., does not mean that your neighbors have to feed and clothe you; it means you have the right to earn your food and clothes yourself, if necessary by a hard struggle, and that no one can forcibly stop your struggle for these things or steal them from you if and when you have achieved them. In other words: you have the right to act, and to keep the results of your actions, the products you make, to keep them or to trade them with others, if you wish. But you have no right to the actions or products of others, except on terms to which they voluntarily agree.


http://www.afcm.org/hcinar.html




mnottertail -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/30/2016 8:26:03 AM)

some of the positions of the nutsucker/felcher/slobbering/nazi/propaganda/pantshitting nutsuckers:


Some rightwing gasbag ignores the actual constitution, the founding fathers, rather he paraphrases communists:


The right to life, e.g., does not mean that your neighbors have to feed and clothe you; it means you have the right to earn your food and clothes yourself, if necessary by a hard struggle, and that no one can forcibly stop your struggle for these things or steal them from you if and when you have achieved them.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

Communism, nutsuckerism, nazism. No difference.




Lucylastic -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/30/2016 8:29:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

um, sorry dave, there were plenty of republican alternatives that were discussed at the time, and that are still being discussed today. the notion that the gop had "nothing" is either an outright lie, or a myth repeated by people not paying close attention.

and your question by the way, supports this false premise that its the government's job to be involved in the health care system in the first place.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, no there were not. tort reform,thats it, hallucinatory pure nutsucker asswipe. The premise that healthcare is a right that should be protected by the government is not false.

There are no alternatives other than repeal and fuck you from the nutsuckers, nothing.


so which one are you in the equation? the outright liar? or the myth perpetuator who wasn't paying attention?

quote:

The premise that healthcare is a right that should be protected by the government is not false.


spoken like a true liberal comrade collectivist.


Then why havent they introduced anything since the last plan was denigrated.
Its only been seven years, you would think something positive would be in their platform. But not ONE candidates healthcare plans is new or will work without MILLLLLLLLIONS of people being kicked off insurance .

You have NOTHING. not one damn thing.
Millions still slip thru the gaps, poor people in states that refuse the mandate or expand healthcare are the worst affected.
Considering that every developed country BUT the USA has healthcare as a right, AND the UHRC signatories agree it is.
Your ignorant idiocy about liberal comrade collectivist is about as ignorant and partisan as me calling you a republicunt. WHIch I would Never do.
[8D]





bounty44 -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/30/2016 8:54:29 AM)

and more:

"Healthcare Is Not a Human Right"

quote:

When we claim to have a right to something we mean that we have dominion over that something and that others are obligated to respect this dominion. The various versions of the texts leading up to the final draft of the Declaration of Independence reflect this natural rights tradition in America: we are all created free and independent, we have certain inherent natural rights that precede the State and therefore cannot be granted nor taken away by the State, among those rights we have life, liberty, and the means of possessing private property to pursue and obtain happiness and safety.

When person A claims that he owns this watch, person B’s obligation is to recognize this watch as A’s property. B is therefore precluded from taking it from A unless (1) A sell’s it to B, (2) A gifts it to B, (3) A lends it to B temporarily. If B steals it from A, B may enjoy it, but B does not have a right over it because in stealing B violated A’s dominion to the watch, therefore A has the right to demand its return, if necessary use violence against B to claim it back, and in addition, exact a punishment against B.

When person A claims that he has a right to his life, person B’s obligation is to recognize A’s body and refrain from harming it. A’s right to life does not demand action on the part of B. It demands restraint. If A is drowning, A’s right to life does not force B to save A from death. But A’s right to life does force B to not drown A.

Strictly speaking, then, rights place an obligation on others to not act in a way that invades that which is claimed by those rights. A’s right to the watch places an obligation on B to not take away the watch unless conditions 1, 2 or 3 above are met. A’s right to life places an obligation on B to not take A’s life. Rights do not demand action from others to sustain that which is claimed by those rights. A’s right to the watch or to his life does not demand that B support A’s ability to enjoy the watch or his life, for example by requiring that B repair the watch if it were broken or requiring that B financially support A’s lifestyle. Rights demand recognition, respect and restraint on the part of others. Rights do not demand action…

Supporters of positive rights confuse justice with charity and in their confusion they improperly establish a system of “compulsory charity.” Saint Thomas Aquinas defines justice as “the perpetual and constant will to render to each one his right” and states that “a man is said to be just because he respects the rights of others” (Summa Theologica, II-II q. 58 a.1). The claim that those in need of food, shelter and health place on others are not claims of justice for the object of justice is rights and rights are restraints on action rather than obligations to act; therefore, justice requires that people be left alone free to enjoy their rights…

“Compulsory charity,” that is, the threat or the use of violence to expropriate the wealth and income of some for the purposes of aiding those in need cannot be morally justified.1 First, expropriation, regardless of its beneficial end, violates the principle of negative human rights or side-constraints. Aquinas states (Summa Theologica II-II q.32 a.7) that when a thing is ill-gotten (for example, through theft), it may not be given away in alms because it must first be restored to the proper owner. Second, we cannot properly speak of charity in a compulsory arrangement of expropriation because coercion violates the voluntary characteristic of charity.

Healthcare services can only be provided and can only be properly justified under arrangements that are voluntary and that do not violate negative human rights. Only two types of arrangements fit this description. One, under a free market in which producers and consumers of health freely buy and sell services. Two, under a charitable arrangement in which organizations financed by voluntary contributions from donors or by their own profitable ventures provide health services to those in need free of charge or at a discount.

We conclude, therefore, that the apparatus of compulsion set up by the state to finance and provide healthcare to those in need cannot be morally justified.2 It may be the “law of the land” and the state’s subjects in all likelihood may have to submit to it under the threat or use of state sponsored violence, but let us be clear, this “law” cannot be derived from any reference to human rights. It is strictly based on violence and coercion and therefore cannot possibly be morally justified.


http://libertarianstandard.com/articles/gabriel-e-vidal/healthcare-is-not-a-human-right/

but hey vile critter parts, maybe you can make that all go away with some nutsuckering and asswiping? (and maybe try looking up what a "Bolshevik" is too? youre embarrassing yourself more than usual)





mnottertail -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/30/2016 9:00:10 AM)

Yeah, the nutsucker is spewing asswipe.

The whole fuck-o-ree is faulty, claiming you own a watch does not constitute any fact that you have ownership of it. Who is bound to respect such fucking stupidity?

Consider:

Nutsucker: I can call the ghosties!!!
Factbased person: Aye, but do they come when you call 'em?

Same sort of asswipe.

The rest of the toiletlicking from that point on is of even more deplorable cretinism.

If you cant make the first premise at least plausible, as an internet millionaire, then you deserve no further honest consideration.

I will not bother with the rest of his shiteating.




Phydeaux -> RE: Lies your president told you about Obamacare (3/30/2016 11:13:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

um, sorry dave, there were plenty of republican alternatives that were discussed at the time, and that are still being discussed today. the notion that the gop had "nothing" is either an outright lie, or a myth repeated by people not paying close attention.

and your question by the way, supports this false premise that its the government's job to be involved in the health care system in the first place.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, no there were not. tort reform,thats it, hallucinatory pure nutsucker asswipe. The premise that healthcare is a right that should be protected by the government is not false.

There are no alternatives other than repeal and fuck you from the nutsuckers, nothing.


so which one are you in the equation? the outright liar? or the myth perpetuator who wasn't paying attention?

quote:

The premise that healthcare is a right that should be protected by the government is not false.


spoken like a true liberal comrade collectivist.


Then why havent they introduced anything since the last plan was denigrated.
Its only been seven years, you would think something positive would be in their platform. But not ONE candidates healthcare plans is new or will work without MILLLLLLLLIONS of people being kicked off insurance .

You have NOTHING. not one damn thing.
Millions still slip thru the gaps, poor people in states that refuse the mandate or expand healthcare are the worst affected.
Considering that every developed country BUT the USA has healthcare as a right, AND the UHRC signatories agree it is.
Your ignorant idiocy about liberal comrade collectivist is about as ignorant and partisan as me calling you a republicunt. WHIch I would Never do.
[8D]





So what?

The end all be-all isn't whether a person has insurance. Its:

A). Can the person afford medical care?
B). Does it bankrupt him or put him significantly in the hole?
C). Is it cost effective
D). Are the unintended consequence manageable.

Obamacare fails every prong of these tests.
Obama care hasn't been shown to result in better health outcomes; doesn't decrease trips to the ER. It doesn't reduce the number of people going bankrupt due to medical fees - in fact the caps on deductibles and copays under obamacare bronze and silver are lower than the average employer health care. Per the GAO, obama care is delivering between 20 and 40 cents of services for every dollar. Finally, millions of employers are dumping employee healthcare because they can't afford obamacare mandates.

Ie., the percentage of people with employer provided healthcare is down more than 7% since the onset of obamacare. So these costs go from being picked up by individuals and corporations - to being picked up by the government, which is why obamacare fuels massive deficits as far as the eye can see.




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