RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 2:33:59 PM)

quote:

Perhaps you elevate evil to a status it does not merit. You are probably aware of Hannah Arendt's reporting on the Eichmann trial and the quote from her book: the banality of evil.

We had a case here in the States back in I can't remember when of a sniper, an ex-marine, who killed and wounded many from his perch atop the University of Texas campus Tower. Charles Whitman was his name. He had begun the day by killing his wife and mother. Whitman left a suicide note requesting an autopsy to find the cause of his uncontrollable rage. A tumor was found that might well have been the cause. Maybe some people, maybe many, have psychological tumors.


At risk of the usual crowd turning up to whinny about lefties and 'political correctness gone mad' - I'm not even sure that 'evil' is a useful concept, ultimately. I'm only sure that there are some people around who are so dangerous to the rest of us that they need to be taken outside of society in some way.

Eichmann's case takes the whole subject to a different level. Hannah Arendt read him as a 'bureaucrat' who was 'just doing his job' and 'only following orders'. The truly radical point Arendt made, for me, was that here was someone who was a monster not because of his hateful rage but just because he wanted to be 'efficient'. His feelings and emotions weren't the problem, per the usual image of evil monsters - but almost exactly the opposite: he *had* no feelings and emotions. Other than the desire to be 'efficient', that is.

Mind you, recently I read of some of his communications while in prison in Nuremberg, only recently released. He wasn't *quite* as emotionless about Jews as Arendt portrayed him, apparently. There was a sort of cold contemptuous dislike of them in the tone of his writings. One commentator here compared it to the feeling people generally have about bluebottles.

But, whatever: Eichmann was a hideous man and, fairly obviously, I'd rather have a thousand enraged berserkers at large in society - even ones like the subject of the OP - than one 'upright, clear-thinking and rational citizen' who simply wants to do an 'efficient job' of 'ridding society of a pestilence'.



kdsub -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 3:29:17 PM)

quote:

It does not seem to be a deterrent


Vince... you do know that some convicted murderers manage to kill again don't you? Will if they are dead that won't happen. Myself the Death penalty is simply a punishment not a deterrent. But it will certainly deter the murderer from killing again.

Some estimate 1 in 5 people have some kind of mental illness... the vast majority are not murderers. I do believe that there are a few severely ill individuals that out of fear of injury to themselves could lash out and injure or kill... but they are very rare.. and that certainly is not the case here.

There is no doubt this man is mentally ill... but sane or crazy he was still a murderer... he was not killing out of personal fear. Just as the mentally challenged should not be forgiven murder, they are just dumb murderers, neither should he even though he is certainly nuts.

Butch



PeonForHer -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 3:38:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince... you do know that some convicted murderers manage to kill again don't you? Will if they are dead that won't happen. Myself the Death penalty is simply a punishment not a deterrent. But it will certainly deter the murderer from killing again.


If I know that my crime will get me the chair, what have I got to lose? It would suddenly make sense to kill anyone and everyone who might help to get me put in jail and awaiting the inevitable sentence. Nobody would want a violent killer to get it into his head that he has nothing to lose by killing as many people - cops included - as he wants, surely?

That was part - just one part, mind - of the reasoning behind the end of the death sentence this side of the pond.



kdsub -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 4:06:37 PM)

Peon I think this is failed thought... If I knew that killing would get me the death penalty I would be just as likely not to kill than to kill... I believe most murders are out of emotion or fear... not an evaluation of the death penalty.

Butch



kdsub -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 4:16:06 PM)

HERE is an example of what can happen when murders are not executed... It is even worse here in the States... dead men do not kill again.

Butch



PeonForHer -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 4:20:36 PM)

So, fear of the chair, then? I mean, sure, fear of the the death penalty might put a man off killing in the first place. But, once he's already killed ... what then? Every cop who wants to catch you in effect is someone who's out to kill you, if you know that he's after you for a capital crime. Your first crime might have been done in a fit of rage or lunacy. But all your following crimes are completely logical and reasoning: they're necessary to prevent your being executed.



PeonForHer -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 4:22:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

HERE is an example of what can happen when murders are not executed... It is even worse here in the States... dead men do not kill again.

Butch


But it's not just about that particular murderer, is it? It's about all potential murderers - and those murderers who've not yet been caught.



kdsub -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 4:37:57 PM)

Well if he is convicted and killed we will not have to worry about him killing again... If he has already killed then fear of the death penalty makes no difference one way or the other... he is simply a killer... the death penalty did not make him or her do it.

Think about it Peon... if you were mad enough...or scared enough... or greedy enough with no conscience... would the penalty for murder deter you? I don't think it would even enter your mind when you pull the trigger.... But just my opinion and we are guessing... But killers killing again is fact.

Butch



Termyn8or -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 4:51:58 PM)

"It does not seem to be a deterrent. I read recently that states without the DP have less homicide rates than those that kill. "

I'll grant you that without asking for a cite, but...

This might be a case of reverse post hoc ergo propter hoc. Did it occur to you that states that have the death penalty need it ? There is a big difference in people in this country. Got someone from Texas, San Fransisco and Chicago they are likely to be very different. The environments are very different, and so are their attitudes.

But as another poster said, executing someone certainly guarantees they will not kill again. Sick or not, I don't care. The only problem is I do not trust the government to do it. I guess we have to do it at the back door in the middle of the night when there is NO doubt.

I have seen courts corruption, and actually enjoyed it a few times. I have seen it in other places as well, felony warrants just disappear, people do shit and never get charged, and I went through a stack of courtesy cards when I was young and dumb and full of cum. I got away with more than I got caught for. But I never committed murder.

But then we got :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney

We are not just talking about a fucked up court here, we are talking about a fucked up jury as well. While the young age, though making the injustice more heinous, matters not to me, there is a hell of alot of doubt about his guilt. He was Black, with a White jury in South Carolina in 1944. This shit stinks bigtime. If the accounts of this case are true (always question), those people down there were motherfuckers.

Maybe he was guilty. If so, then so what ? Of course he was sick in some way, but kill two girls and as far as I am concerned I am not interested in trying to rehabilitate you. But was he ?

THAT, is the crux of the problem. Unless you shoot someone at a fucking football game or something and it is on camera with 50,000 witnesses, it is hard to be sure. All kinds of things happen behind closed doors. In England they think they can fix it with a million cameras, but even that doesn't work. they might have a low crime rate (they don't really) but they don't have NO crime rate.

There is not much we can do. Maybe the US is doing right by starting wars. Too many people.

T^T



ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 5:11:36 PM)

quote:

Did it occur to you that states that have the death penalty need it ?

And why might they "need" it?



epiphiny43 -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 5:43:59 PM)

A Serious lack of awareness of relevant research, or just clear thinking all through the thread. Death penalties are for the emotional pleasure of a sadistic public. More akin to the rough 'justice' of Hollywood standards for movies that depict violence or anti-social conduct. Anything can be shown, if the miscreant ends up getting their 'just deserts' in the end. The fates of the Really evil people are disturbing (too rich or powerful to face Any karma from their damage), so the masses overcompensate with blood lust for punishing the little guy who screws up.
The death penalty is counter productive in controlling crime. Most places murders and such Increase after highly publicized murder trials. Copy Cat criminals alone, seeking recognition are enough of a danger to abolish the ultimate penalty.
People in emotional distress do Not consider the consequences of actions past their emotional horizon, usually the next few minutes.
Planned and deliberate murders aren't affected because Nobody plans on getting Caught! It's largely the ego of thinking one can game the system or local law enforcement that leads to murder. Educated estimates are as high as half of real murders simply aren't detected, but labeled accidents or 'other' causes. Particularly elderly and helpless people suffer this fate.
The massive injustice of how the death penalty is applied alone is enough to ban it. Wealthy people have to have terrible luck to even get Life. Nobody with competent to excellent legal representation gets offed by the State if they didn't manage to be incredibly beyond the pale of human conduct. Simple murder? Out before they are really Old. Poor folks, whole different story. If a racial or ethnic minority, kiss your family goodbye, unless some smart journalist finds the real murder, you're toast. The police sure aren't doing squat once they think they can make a Capital case.
The biggest reason to rationalize the penalties in terms of what works is the COST of capital cases and the interminable appeals under US law. The benefits of that much money could actually change the outcomes of the Justice System if properly allocated to measures that actually change public and private behavior.

As for convicts who kill again, lack of effective management of the Justice System in a massively politicized bureaucracy and simple incompetence of appeals boards are the key, not killing them all and letting God sort it out. Which brings in the most human of all objections against Death Penalties: the Massive amount of false convictions and the other contributing abuses built into our system. Maybe much of the forum is at peace with the few random white guy getting gassed or hung, but at peace as long as they are black or poor hispanic. Hope you sleep well (NOT!), and don't fit some profile a local Prosecutor has in their hand as they work to build a strong record of courtroom success to boost their next election to higher office.

(Reply to thread, not a particular post)



Termyn8or -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 5:44:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Did it occur to you that states that have the death penalty need it ?

And why might they "need" it?


Because they have the right not to coexist with certain organisms.

Do I have to live with roaches ?
Do I have to live with rats ?
Do I have to let wild dogs in ?

Because they claim their right not to coexist with animals and dangerous defectives. And I believe we have that right. I believe we have the right to keep dangerous animals out of our neighborhoods, schools and grocery stores.

And if you don't like it, GTFO and go live with those animals and see how that works out forya.

When I was making it, I almost bought an entire neighborhood. Who gets to rent is my choice. If it had worked out, it would be a mini utopia.

Being around people, not having any control who they are is for people in fucking jail. If I do not want you in my neighborhood I should have the right to keep you out. Too bad.

And that would not be based on race. Maybe religion, but that is a choice. A bad choice.

T^T



kdsub -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 5:53:17 PM)

Why not write this out and stuff it in an envelope and send it to the targets of Obama's drone war on terrorists...Same way of thinking...and I mean this.

Only war works... and so does the death penalty... there is no difference.

Butch



vincentML -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 6:12:27 PM)

LadyPact:

quote:

I'm familiar with The Innocence Project, Vincent. It's a non-sequitur in this case. The little girls didn't call from another person's phone saying "Daddy don't". You can't even try for mental disease/defect without the acknowledgement that the defendant did it.

I was speaking generally of the death penalty; not this particular case.

quote:

And defense attorneys aren't? What about career ambitions? Even just getting a person life without the possibility of parole in a death sentence case is pretty prestigious. More people can name OJ's "dream team" than they can the last four appointments to the Supreme Court.

Often, as I understand it, the impoverished are represented by public defenders who lack experience and resources but have an ample case load. Additionally, defense attorneys have less of a duty to the state and more of a duty to their clients. I think that is significant.

quote:

No, it's not. An individual can take a life without justification or cause. There is no recourse. No appeals. No weighing of evidence.


This from a citizen of a nation that wantonly tortures individuals and invades other nations based on fraud or pretense?

Greta:

quote:

Sometimes it's arguable which is worst. Life in prison or death. Some people who got life sentence have plead to get death instead.

I think the third option is worst: execution of the innocent.

Staleek:

quote:

On this case in particular, I personally can't bring myself to believe that the healthy or even moderately unhealthy human mind would seek to destroy its own offspring. Anyone who has kids of their own knows exactly what I'm getting at here. I don't know the full facts of the case and I certainly don't know everything there is to know about mental illness, but fuck... something clearly isn't right with this guy.


I agree.

satancharmer:

quote:

But have you ever become dangerously violent?

Impatience, obsession, anger, and self-destructive behavior.

quote:

Everything I've ever read on bipolar suggests that becoming dangerously violent is not a trait solely related to bipolar, but when coupled with alcohol, drugs, or emotional stress it may increase the risk. Then again, those things may increase the risk in people who are not bipolar.
Maybe. But, does the second mediate the first? Maybe both are true. Probably, it is not binary. The guy in this particular case evidently was a mess.



Greta75 -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 6:15:50 PM)

quote:

I think the third option is worst: execution of the innocent.

Obviously to get death penalty, there has to be evidence you murdered.
And someone insane who commit murder is not innocent. Personally, to me there is no difference between someone who systematically cold bloodedly plot and executed a string of mass murders, and does it for pleasure, as someone who has schizophrenia or whatever. Both are of a mental condition that are not of the norm. For someone to enjoy killing, is already a mental deviation from the normal mindset just like being schizophrenia. Something is different in their brain.

Look, OJ got free. What execution of innocent?



Greta75 -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 6:22:41 PM)

quote:

People in emotional distress do Not consider the consequences of actions past their emotional horizon, usually the next few minutes.

This is about taking responsibility for your actions. Many people do stupid things out of emotions. But when penalty is high, and people who value their life will make more efforts to be more disciplined.



Greta75 -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 6:27:04 PM)

quote:

If I know that my crime will get me the chair, what have I got to lose? It would suddenly make sense to kill anyone and everyone who might help to get me put in jail and awaiting the inevitable sentence. Nobody would want a violent killer to get it into his head that he has nothing to lose by killing as many people - cops included - as he wants, surely?

I really don't understand this as a reason against death penalty. The same scenerio will happen whether it's imprisonment for life or death penalty. I think life sentence also means the guy's life is over. Life is about freedom, not staying in a cell forever. For that same reason, the guy also have nothing to lose and will destroy everything on his path since his gonna be lock up forever and be unable to do anything anymore. And all this does is, we feed and clothe and house someone undeserving for free, when this money could be use for some struggling poverty line person to feed, cloth and house them.



dcnovice -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 7:47:00 PM)

quote:

Obviously to get death penalty, there has to be evidence you murdered.

Unfortunately, that's less obvious than one might hope.

Since 1973, when the first death penalty laws now in effect in the United States were enacted (8), 143 death-sentenced defendants have been exonerated . . . .

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230.full



LadyPact -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (3/31/2016 10:26:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

LadyPact:

Good Evening, (sorry, Morning) Vincent.

quote:

I was speaking generally of the death penalty; not this particular case.

That's kind of an issue, isn't it? When looking at a facts of a case, one must concentrate on that particular case. Not person B got a harsh sentence or person C *must* have done it but got off scott free.

quote:

Often, as I understand it, the impoverished are represented by public defenders who lack experience and resources but have an ample case load. Additionally, defense attorneys have less of a duty to the state and more of a duty to their clients. I think that is significant.

I'll offer my apologies if I missed where this particular defendant was impoverished. I only read the two links posted and nothing on this particular person's financial status.

My point with my prior comment is that some defense attorneys are looking for that opportunity to make a name for themselves, just as much as prosecutors. Various types of cases can be that 'big break' to argue something in front of the Supreme Court. It might not be the road to Congress that a DA might see, but it is the way to notoriety, the big office, and the lucrative billing hours.

quote:

This from a citizen of a nation that wantonly tortures individuals and invades other nations based on fraud or pretense?

Nice try. Has nothing to do with a father shooting his own children.

If you want to talk about law, stick with law. Skip world politics.

The prosecutor in this case probably had a cake ride. The defendant did it. Nobody disputes it. From the sound of it, premeditation existed because he prepped one of the children about what to say during that phone call before she was shot. Easy win.

The defense attorney, at best, could only mitigate damage. That whole person's job should have been to keep his guilty client alive. Didn't succeed because the client got the death penalty.

So, the convicted goes to the joint, where he finds folks who know the law just as well (or better) than some folks who have passed the bar...

Wait! What about the long shot of mental disease/defect? No real history of it, but, oh-ho! The lawyer didn't try it. That translates into lacking an affirmative defense. Ipso facto, they HAD to stay the execution on the premise of law, based not on whether the defendant did it or not, whether he was really mentally ill or not. It's based on lacking trying a defense that is nothing short of grabbing every straw possible, even if it's not realistic.

In the meantime, this guy who shot his two little girls, keeps breathing.



Staleek -> RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered His Own Daughters (4/1/2016 3:11:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

People in emotional distress do Not consider the consequences of actions past their emotional horizon, usually the next few minutes.

This is about taking responsibility for your actions. Many people do stupid things out of emotions. But when penalty is high, and people who value their life will make more efforts to be more disciplined.



Do you think people *want* to be locked up in prison for decades?

Here is why death penalty, or even prison, isn't an effective deterrent - nobody who commits a crime expects to get caught. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about stealing a can of coke from the service station when the tillers back is turned or pulling a gun and blowing his head off to empty the till.

If someone thought they would get caught they wouldn't do it.

The fact they don't expect to get caught means that consequences aren't part of the equation.




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