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Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdered Hi... - 3/30/2016 10:25:31 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-man-who-killed-daughters-says-he-s-too-delusional-n547481

http://news.yahoo.com/texas-execute-man-murdered-two-daughters-110344507.html

This is a heartbreaking story. This guy shot his own kids while they were talking on the phone with their mother.

The reason for the stay of Wednesday's execution has to do with a lawyer who allegedly failed him. But now he is claiming he suffered from undiagnosed (in 2001) bi-polar disorder.

I was not aware that bipolar disorder (I have a touch of it) could be so extreme to cause his history of irrational violence to the extent of murdering his girls like that.

Your comments . . . .
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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/30/2016 12:39:37 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		I never damn well know whether we're talking very mad, very evil, or a mixture.

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/30/2016 2:45:42 PM   
Real0ne


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Status: offline 		Its pretty clear he lost his faculties.

The just-us-club has a duty to 'properly' defend him (or at least make it look that way to the legally ignorant).

With all the legal drugs that contribute to insanity today, I dont know how the death penalty can even be considered.

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/30/2016 9:21:03 PM   
Greta75


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Status: offline 		Personally.
I have a very cold view on this.
We have too many human beings in this world.
We don't need the ones that are capable of killing.
Whether because his mentally insane or a genuine killer or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

I don't think people should be able to plead insanity to get off any death penalty.

In a world, where you do not show any tolerance or mercy for killing of any kind.

Murders will drop, when it becomes an no excuse world for murder.

So I believe in no excuse for murder, ever! If you commit murder, you pay with your life.

The only exception is IF it was done in self-defense to prevent yourself from being the one murdered.


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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/30/2016 9:21:27 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Its pretty clear he lost his faculties.

The just-us-club has a duty to 'properly' defend him (or at least make it look that way to the legally ignorant).

With all the legal drugs that contribute to insanity today, I dont know how the death penalty can even be considered.


Let us assume he "lost his faculties". Could a case not be made that he was responsible for seeking help prior to losing his "faculties", that he was therefore negligent and thus guilty of negligent homicide?

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/30/2016 11:14:54 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline 		He hasn't been pardoned, nor has the sentence been overturned, the execution has just been halted because his appeal was botched, so they have to redo that appeal. His sanity is merely one of the grounds on which the sentence is being appealed, so now it is up to his lawyers to make their case to the appeals court.
As far as I can see, they did the right thing. If one is going to use the law to kill somebody, then you have to observe that law scrupulously.

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/30/2016 11:28:47 PM   
Termyn8or


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I have to agree with Greta here. If you are sick enough to murder, you get killed. Really, to kill someone with no good reason really is indicitive of some sort of mental problem, but that matters not. You got sympathy for a rabid dog that killed one of your Womenfolk ? I don't. And if that dog looks ad talks like a human, that doesn't mean shit.

Yes they are sick, and a trip to the electric chair will fix them right up. They will not "suffer" anymore.

And if we don't start executing people it is going to get worse, much much worse. It is something about the gene pool I know, and it is also upbringing and a few other factors, like feeding kids drugs instead of raising them. But the fact is, we cannot handle this many people that would do this shit. We do not have the money, and most of them are not rehabilitatable.

People from other countries, or liberals here can say I am a barbarian, but the fact is I make sense. Commuting that death sentence does not make sense. so he is sick, flip the fucking switch and cure him once and for all.

T^T

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 5:44:12 AM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		This is very much the same thing as I was trying to convey on the other thread about this issue.

The point of law that says we don't execute sick people really does get abused sometimes. This was an abusive asshole who shot his own children to 'punish' his ex wife. Does anybody really think the guy didn't know it was wrong to do that?


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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 6:11:03 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		There are several arguments against the DP which should be considered.

It does not seem to be a deterrent. I read recently that states without the DP have less homicide rates than those that kill.

Quite a number of DNA-innocent men have been released from death row in recent years. More than 100 I think. See the Innocence Project for numbers.

There is an institutional bias against the impoverished accused.

District Attorneys are politically ambitious. There have been cases of prosecutorial misconduct, hence the outcry recently over Netflix's doc. "The Making of a Murderer."

If killing is immoral for individuals it is immoral for states, all the more so because they have such great power over the individual.

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 6:14:47 AM   
satanscharmer


Posts: 376
Status: offline 		So incredibly sad.

He's an angry, violent person that happens to be bipolar. That's how I view it. I don't see him as insane, or temporarily insane.
I hate when this defense is used. It is a defense that has been overly abused. If he had been diagnosed as schizophrenic, then I'd have a different take.



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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 6:23:00 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I never damn well know whether we're talking very mad, very evil, or a mixture.


Perhaps you elevate evil to a status it does not merit. You are probably aware of Hannah Arendt's reporting on the Eichmann trial and the quote from her book: the banality of evil.

We had a case here in the States back in I can't remember when of a sniper, an ex-marine, who killed and wounded many from his perch atop the University of Texas campus Tower. Charles Whitman was his name. He had begun the day by killing his wife and mother. Whitman left a suicide note requesting an autopsy to find the cause of his uncontrollable rage. A tumor was found that might well have been the cause. Maybe some people, maybe many, have psychological tumors.

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 6:28:45 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: satanscharmer

So incredibly sad.

He's an angry, violent person that happens to be bipolar. That's how I view it. I don't see him as insane, or temporarily insane.
I hate when this defense is used. It is a defense that has been overly abused. If he had been diagnosed as schizophrenic, then I'd have a different take.





IDK, s.c. I have been nasty to people when off my meds. A lot of impatience. Blind rage does not seem to be totally unlikely a symptom of the illness. Then, there may be a close genetic association between the BP spectrum and the Schizophrenia spectrum, I have read.

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 6:50:45 AM   
Staleek


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Status: offline 		I find the death penalty to be logically inconsistent as it is. Is killing a harmless individual justifiable? If it is, then murder isn't always so bad, so why execute people for it? If it is not, then we shouldn't allow the state to murder on our behalf.

As such I think if someone takes a chainsaw and attacks a bus full of nuns with it "for a laugh", he still shouldn't be executed.

On this case in particular, I personally can't bring myself to believe that the healthy or even moderately unhealthy human mind would seek to destroy its own offspring. Anyone who has kids of their own knows exactly what I'm getting at here. I don't know the full facts of the case and I certainly don't know everything there is to know about mental illness, but fuck... something clearly isn't right with this guy.

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 6:54:21 AM   
Greta75


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Status: offline 		Sometimes it's arguable which is worst. Life in prison or death. Some people who got life sentence have plead to get death instead.
Personally, I know the argument in the US is lethal injection and electric chair cost more than life imprisonment. But over here, we just hang. It's just a rope. Cost nothing.

So it's cheaper. I'd go with let's spend that taxpayer money on needy children and nurturing the future to prevent more murderers rather than saving murderers.

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 6:59:04 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Quite a number of DNA-innocent men have been released from death row in recent years. More than 100 I think. See the Innocence Project for numbers.

I'm familiar with The Innocence Project, Vincent. It's a non-sequitur in this case. The little girls didn't call from another person's phone saying "Daddy don't". You can't even try for mental disease/defect without the acknowledgement that the defendant did it.

quote:

There is an institutional bias against the impoverished accused.

The guy was a former accountant. He wasn't broke. He might have spent more than he wanted to fighting his other charges of DV...

quote:

District Attorneys are politically ambitious. There have been cases of prosecutorial misconduct, hence the outcry recently over Netflix's doc. "The Making of a Murderer."

And defense attorneys aren't? What about career ambitions? Even just getting a person life without the possibility of parole in a death sentence case is pretty prestigious. More people can name OJ's "dream team" than they can the last four appointments to the Supreme Court.

quote:

If killing is immoral for individuals it is immoral for states, all the more so because they have such great power over the individual.

No, it's not. An individual can take a life without justification or cause. There is no recourse. No appeals. No weighing of evidence.

How many times over has this man been allowed to live longer than his own daughter said, "daddy don't" and he pulled the trigger? The only reason this guy is still sucking air is because he learned a thing or two about law in the joint. I hope he's enjoying that tattoo he went out and got. That alone says he *knew* those two little girls were extinguished, and he knows he's responsible.


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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 7:07:38 AM   
Staleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Sometimes it's arguable which is worst. Life in prison or death. Some people who got life sentence have plead to get death instead.
Personally, I know the argument in the US is lethal injection and electric chair cost more than life imprisonment. But over here, we just hang. It's just a rope. Cost nothing.

So it's cheaper. I'd go with let's spend that taxpayer money on needy children and nurturing the future to prevent more murderers rather than saving murderers.



Bringing cost into it sets an extremely dangerous and nasty precedent. You are basically putting a dollar value on human life. Yes, spend the money on needy children, but which children? If we don't have enough to go around all the children we'll have to pick. "Normal" children should get most of it obviously, but what about kids with Downs Syndrome for example? Kids who we know will never be able to contribute as much as they take from society?

What does that have to do with it? Well look at the foundation of your argument - money. Resources. The life or death of someone based upon their cost to the state, not on morality.

Ironically this is a very hard-left position because it is an extreme example of the sort of utilitarianism espoused by Mao.

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 8:19:10 AM   
satanscharmer


Posts: 376
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: satanscharmer

So incredibly sad.

He's an angry, violent person that happens to be bipolar. That's how I view it. I don't see him as insane, or temporarily insane.
I hate when this defense is used. It is a defense that has been overly abused. If he had been diagnosed as schizophrenic, then I'd have a different take.





IDK, s.c. I have been nasty to people when off my meds. A lot of impatience. Blind rage does not seem to be totally unlikely a symptom of the illness. Then, there may be a close genetic association between the BP spectrum and the Schizophrenia spectrum, I have read.



But have you ever become dangerously violent?
It is estimated that 5.7 million people in the U.S. alone are bipolar. That would mean 5.7 million people (not including all other illnesses/diseases/disorders) that have an increased risk of committing murder. I don't buy it.
Everything I've ever read on bipolar suggests that becoming dangerously violent is not a trait solely related to bipolar, but when coupled with alcohol, drugs, or emotional stress it may increase the risk. Then again, those things may increase the risk in people who are not bipolar.

For the record, I was diagnosed as having Bipolar II (highs are what others consider normal and lows are really, really low). I don't take meds. Aside from all the different concoctions of medications making me depressed when I wasn't, it wasn't why I saw him and I didn't agree with the assessment at all (I still gave it a try because he was, after all, the "expert").
I had three kids. The first one was colicky - no, colicky doesn't even begin to describe the amount and degree of crying. It wasn't just two hours a day. It was stressful, to say the least. I was depressed, stressed out, sleep deprived, and at times angry. A couple of times, I had to lay her down and walk outside for a few minutes to take a deep breath. If the doctor was right, that would mean I was at high risk of being extremely dangerous. Three kids, they're all still alive and never was there a moment where I would have harmed them in any way. Never crossed my mind. I know people are different and my example may not be the best one, but this is where I'm coming from. I don't think it's the bipolar. These people are different. If you strip away the bipolar, I believe you're still left with someone capable of murder. Bipolar does not make a murderer.


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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 8:23:41 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		One cannot; argue, debate, rationalise, with madness, a state of being..that is how it is. So a line is drawn, rightly or wrongly, save for the most extreme provable cases...which makes not too much sense to me.

what is right
what is wrong
what is monster
does monster know its a monster and so on it goes

foots real0nes nuts - i expect more from that brain of yours

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 9:04:59 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: ifmaz

Let us assume he "lost his faculties". Could a case not be made that he was responsible for seeking help prior to losing his "faculties", that he was therefore negligent and thus guilty of negligent homicide?

How would he have known he was going bonkers?

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RE: Appeals Court Stays Execution of Father Who Murdere... - 3/31/2016 9:21:47 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
Bringing cost into it sets an extremely dangerous and nasty precedent. You are basically putting a dollar value on human life.

You have to put a dollar value to human life when you are managing national funds. If not managed correctly, whole country goes bankrupt and then you got Greece Crisis. I mean, it's just a reality.

Murderers are people who do not value the life of other human beings, and chose to take the life of another human being, so they forfeit the right to their own lives and do not deserve any consideration at all.

And there is a dollar value to everything, even in deciding who deserves the welfare cheque. And who deserves how much.

quote:

Yes, spend the money on needy children, but which children? If we don't have enough to go around all the children we'll have to pick. "Normal" children should get most of it obviously, but what about kids with Downs Syndrome for example? Kids who we know will never be able to contribute as much as they take from society?

No, usually when fundings goes to needy children, they don't care if it's down syndrome or not, it simply goes by income level of their family, regardless of the mental health of the child. I have never heard of this down syndrome kids gets less financial help than normal kids, if both are equally poor. My country certainly doesn't do that.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 3/31/2016 9:23:57 AM >

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