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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 1:35:37 PM

meatcleaver

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What the hell, just read it and page 2 & 3.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 1:43:34 PM

joshua69

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Heh...

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 1:44:49 PM

Alumbrado

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Nice article..particularly the mention of the Kingdom of Transjordan.

Where is that located again? And how many Transjordanian citizens are there? How many were there in say....1918? And who was this al-Husseini guy anyway?
And what exactly does 'Iran' mean anyway? I thought it was called Persia?

Or we could drop the propaganda slinging and admit that this goes back through a long, long, path of European colonialism, using anyone with different colored skin as poker chips.

And pretending that the previous spate of violence somehow justifies the next violent retaliation is a game with no winners.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 1:53:47 PM

meatcleaver

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There are still people alive that have first hand experience of that event so it hasn't yet fully passed into history.

Actually that area was part of the Ottoman Empire until 1918 and wasn't colonised by the Europeans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:15:12 PM

Alumbrado

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If you read your own link it says that Palestine was under British rule for a year before 1918...The Ottoman Empire had finished its collapse by the end of WWI, and European colonialism had been manipulating things in that overall area for a longer time.

Not a very effective sidestep, I'm afraid...

I'll repeat....the current troubles are tit-for-tat going back centuries, so that the Europeans could exploit and grow wealthy at the expense of the people in those places.
The current problems are no more justified by what happened before, than any other form of revenge.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:18:47 PM

LadyEllen

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Hi Mr Rodgers
Thanks for correcting me where I was wrong - perhaps there were UN resolutions, but the fact remains that British Palestine was inhabited in the majority by Palestinian Arabs, who were then subjected to terrorist actions to remove them by the new state of Israel. The fact remains that many British soldiers were injured or killed by Jewish terrorists on the road to that state.

Your argument that the Palestinians have been displaced and should accept that, is exactly what I was saying in relation to the Jewish people - they were displaced from Palestine almost 2000 years ago by the Romans - the reason the Jews have spent centuries in a diaspora, the reason the Jews were to be found throughout Europe was that the Romans expelled them and destroyed their temple. My argument was, why should the Jews be allowed to recover their ancestral land, if I am not permitted to do the same and expel a Danish family from their home? If I then make them live in the garden shed, deprive them of everything which I have, then surely it would be my own look out when they threw a petrol bomb through my (their) house window? One cannot expect the expelled family to become wealthy in such circumstances, just as one cannot expect a middle class to develop in the ghettos where the Palestinians are confined.

The invitation to live with the Jews in the Israeli state I will cede to your greater knowledge as being true - however, let me ask you this. If someone broke into your home right now and threw you out and treated you as described above - would you seriously be prepared to talk to them about sharing the house? Of course not - you would want your house back and the intruders gone.

I did not understand your proposal for a solution I'm afraid. The fact remains that the only solution other than total extermination of one or the other side, is diplomacy - but this is not possible unless and until the religious aspect is removed and the world confronts both sides to make them take action.

As for the current violence - both the kidnapping in Gaza and on the Lebanese border are unacceptable. The violence since is also unacceptable - and what is worst, all these deaths and horriific injuries will not bring the kidnapped soldiers back, but only serve to harden attitudes on both sides and provide a recruiting tool for the likes of Hezbollah and Hammas, neither of which are going to give up their captives now, with so much of their reputations at stake. At the same time, Israel cannot back down until the soldiers are returned, and have unfortunately now played their hand - they cannot go back either without losing reputation. This episode is a microcosm of all that has transpired since Israel was established - injustices (the kidnappings in this case), lots of killing and maiming, lots of hatred, but no solution.

regards
E

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:21:32 PM

meatcleaver

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Are you for real? The British were there in 1917, which I accept is before 1918 but that wasn't my point of posting it, it was for the history of area. And if I remember correctly, the USA were Britain's allies!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/20/2006 2:22:39 PM >

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:28:35 PM

pollux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The invitation to live with the Jews in the Israeli state I will cede to your greater knowledge as being true - however, let me ask you this. If someone broke into your home right now and threw you out and treated you as described above - would you seriously be prepared to talk to them about sharing the house? Of course not - you would want your house back and the intruders gone.

Well, if it were me, I'd probably fight three bitter wars over it. Having lost the three wars, I might try a compromise and see if I couldn't figure out a way to just get along.

Unless I came from an honor/shame-based culture and was heavily invested in a fundamentalist religion which praises "holy war" against apostates among its highest values. In that case I guess I'd fight to the death while being sure to cause as much bloodshed as I possibly could on my way out.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:36:14 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

Are you for real? The British were there in 1917, which I accept is before 1918 but that wasn't my point of posting it, it was for the history of area. And if I remember correctly, the USA were Britain's allies!!!!!!!!

Again, nice try at substituting propaganda for reason...and dodging the questions about Iran and Transjordan and al-Husseini, and the history of the whole area.

You've already tried to lay the blame for 1600s slavery at the feet of the nation of America, now you want to add them into the mix of the British East India Company and the Palestinian Mandate as well?

I guess America also forced people like Allenby and Disraeli and Lawrence to do the exact opposite of what they really wanted to do?

Riiiight..... You might as well be blaming Bill Clinton for the Opium Wars.

European colonialism, and neo-colonialsim is writ large across the entire planet, and people are still dying for it today.

And once you get past 'they took my grandfather's house' as an excuse for killing, it becomes inexcusable.

Glib words and selective blindness toward history does not make such things defensible.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/20/2006 2:39:37 PM >

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:44:17 PM

DarkSideOfThMoon

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Slavery, the slave trade was the fault of 3 nations, if you put it at the feet of a country rather then a group in society.

Britain: Shipped goods to africa, fabrics etc.

Africa: Conflicting tribes captured each other and sold each other to the Britishas slaves for the goods. These slaves are packed in literally like sardines to these ships by the British.

America: America buys the slaves and has them work on plantations, the strongest are forced to breed. They give the British raw materials, and the cycle goes on.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:45:51 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Are you for real? The British were there in 1917, which I accept is before 1918 but that wasn't my point of posting it, it was for the history of area. And if I remember correctly, the USA were Britain's allies!!!!!!!!

Again, nice try at substituting propaganda for reason...and dodging the questions about Iran and Transjordan and al-Husseini, and the history of the whole area.

You've already tried to lay the blame for 1600s slavery at the feet of the nation of America, now you want to add them into the mix of the British East India Company and the Palestinian Mandate as well?

No I didn't. You called the slave trade European. I pointed out the US was just as involved in the slave trade as Europe.

I guess America also forced people like Allenby and Disraeli and Lawrence to do the exact opposite of what they really wanted to do?
Riiiight..... You might as well be blaming Bill Clinton for the Opium Wars.

When have I mentioned the opium wars? Oh I have mentioned the opium wars somewhere on CM and I said it was a shaming British espisode.

European colonialism, and neo-colonialsim is writ large across the entire planet, and people are still dying for it today.

You do pretty well out of it I bet! Why don't you give everything back to the people it belongs to?

And once you get past 'they took my grandfather's house' as an excuse for killing, it becomes inexcusable.

Glib words and selective blindness toward history does not make such things defensible.

You are starting to write like you are on opium.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:46:26 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

Slavery, the slave trade was the fault of 3 nations, if you put it at the feet of a country rather then a group in society.

Britain: Shipped goods to africa, fabrics etc.

Africa: Conflicting tribes captured each other and sold each other to the Britishas slaves for the goods. These slaves are packed in literally like sardines to these ships by the British.

America: America buys the slaves and has them work on plantations, the strongest are forced to breed. They give the British raw materials, and the cycle goes on.

Actually, 3/4 of the slaves at the very least were bought by Britain, Brazil, and places in the Carribean...not by the colonies that would become the US.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/20/2006 2:47:49 PM >

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:49:03 PM

meatcleaver

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Oh sorry. Now I see where you are coming from. Everything that happened in America before Independence was down to Europeans and not colonists and everything after was down to Americans!

It still makes America shoulder deep in the cslave trade. Sorry.

Look, however you like to put it you had slavery until 1865. A long time after the British had banned it and fought against it.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/20/2006 2:50:26 PM >

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:50:12 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You are starting to write like you are on opium.

And you are still dodging the questions with childish debate tricks...and you are still making excuses for killing.

Your choice, from the safety of your keyboard.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:51:09 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You are starting to write like you are on opium.

And you are still dodging the questions with childish debate tricks...and you are still making excuses for killing.

Your choice, from the safety of your keyboard.

To be honest I am losing track of what you are actually talking about.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:55:12 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Oh sorry. Now I see where you are coming from. Everything that happened in America before Independence was down to Europeans and not colonists and everything after was down to Americans!

It still makes America shoulder deep in the cslave trade. Sorry.

Look, however you like to put it you had slavery until 1865. A long time after the British had banned it and fought against it.

And however you put it, the slave trade from medieval times on was not the American slave trade...the proper term is European, just like the proper term for European colonialism is, surprisingly enough, 'European colonialism'.

Your red herring game of trying to add the words 'America did it' is just a smoke screen to avoid answering the questions, and to rationalize the killings.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 2:58:22 PM

meatcleaver

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Why don't you start a thread called European Colonialism v Manifest Destiny thewe can discuss the rights and wrongs of European and Americn Imperialism and which caused the most shit!

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 3:01:50 PM

meatcleaver

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I think you will find Medieval slavery was a very different animal to the black slave trade which was not only European but had Arabic, Jewish, American and African involvement too.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 3:03:46 PM

Alumbrado

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You already started this thread on European colonialism. And you are still running away from the questions about the cycle of killing started by it.

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RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism - 7/20/2006 3:05:57 PM

meatcleaver

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I didn't start this thread on European colonialism. READ THE OPENING POST!

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