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RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/21/2006 1:44:26 AM

EnglishDomNW

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I edited this on the grounds it was likely to cause offence to people of a sensitive political position.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/21/2006 1:47:46 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 4:23:36 AM

Master96

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Greetings everyone,

I’m not sure about how much Hamas stopped their actions against Israel. But I’m sure about this, they – Hamas – offered many times for an armistice. But Israel always ignored that and continues its single solution saying that there isn’t any Palestinian partner.

If Hamas is a terrorist group who won the Palestinian elections. Then the leaders of Israel are war criminals who won the Israeli elections. Because of the international politics they –Israel’s prime ministers and army leaders– aren’t prosecute through the International Court of Justice at The Hague, Netherlands; along side with Slobodan Milošević.

And regarding the Qassams… here in the Middle East, the situation is that Israel is doing the action, and the Palestinians are doing the reaction and defending themselves. Israel keeps saying the reverse of this, as Israel is defending itself in a reaction of the Palestinians.

When Israel established the Israelis started, and they are still, cast Palestinians out of their homes and lands; also killing armless Palestinians. Through time Palestinians reacted with resistance which got armed.

The creation of groups like Hamas is the result of the world ignorance towards the Palestinian’s suffers.

True… there are no innocent governments involved in this war. But the world keeps asking the Palestinians to stop and none asks Israel to behave itself.

Regarding Iran… I’m not happy like anyone lest with their hands in Iraq and
Lebanon. But the west has to understand that the Arabian governments don’t represent the Arabic people. Those governments are held by dictators. Those governments don’t want to involve in war with Israel. And no one wants way anyway. But the Arabic people are sick of the Israelis and their crimes. They are seeing Iran, Hezzbollah and Hamas the only people who are standing against Israel. Although many Arabs disagree with Hezzbollah but Hezzbollah’s leader is highly respected in the Arabic world for his work in retrieving the Arabic prisoners in 2000, and for his standing against Israel.

Well, I’m neither pro-Hamas nor Hezzbollah. I think the best way to resolve the American colonization in Iraq and Israeli colonization in the holy lands; is by peaceful resistance like the Indian way with Mahatma Gandhi. On the other hand, you can’t blame the armed resistance as it is a widely chosen through the world; for example in South Africa, Northern Ireland and Spain.
Master96,

< Message edited by Master96 -- 7/22/2006 4:26:40 AM >

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

Post #: 42

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 4:41:26 AM

meatcleaver

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These are some quotes I read in a post this morning. While it could be argued they are taken out of context, I think they do illustrate that the problems in the middle east are not all down to the Palestinians.

Some famous quotes from Israeli Prime Ministers regarding the Middle East conflict:
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): " If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return... The old will die and the young will forget."-David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, July 18, 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's "Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet," Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." - David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." - David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population; Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'? Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979; Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." - David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." - Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." - Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy." - Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
"I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism." --Moshe Sharett, Israel's first Foreign Minister and later a Prime Minister (p.51 Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel", 1987)
"The state of Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the methods of provocation and revenge.... And above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." -From the diary of Moshe Sharett, Israeli's first Foreign Minister from 1948-1956, and Prime Minister from 1954-1956.
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." - Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...." - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization." - Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/22/2006 4:53:39 AM >

(in reply to Master96)

Post #: 43

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 6:57:10 AM

Level

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Interesting quotes, Meatcleaver. I don't believe most Israelis feel that how they got their country is 100% kosher (no pun intended), but I certainly could be wrong. Irregardless, they will hold on to it for dear life, hoping for the eventual "forgetting" Gurion spoke about.

_____________________________

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Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 44

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 7:07:57 AM

meatcleaver

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That's the problem Level. Both sides are holding onto their own perceived version of truth and events for dear life.

One side hoping the other will eventually go away and forget while the other side knowing that has no intention of going away.

I don't know how true this is so if someone challenges it I'm not going to fight about it. But I'm led to understand Ghandi was asked to endorse the new Israel but he refused and said, taking through violence will only bring you trouble later.

Where are the statesmen when you need them?

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 45

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 7:26:16 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

That's the problem Level. Both sides are holding onto their own perceived version of truth and events for dear life.

One side hoping the other will eventually go away and forget while the other side knowing that has no intention of going away.

I don't know how true this is so if someone challenges it I'm not going to fight about it. But I'm led to understand Ghandi was asked to endorse the new Israel but he refused and said, taking through violence will only bring you trouble later.

Where are the statesmen when you need them?

A quote I found on Ghandi and Israel:

"... if [the Jews in Palestine] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb."

Here's a link to the article in it's entirety (I haven't read the whole thing and do not vouch for its veracity).

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_gandhi.php

I don't know if the statesmen can help right now, Meatcleaver, but if any of them can prove me wrong, please do!

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 46

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 7:46:07 AM

meatcleaver

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It's somewhat different than I was led to believe but more the interesting and thoughtful. Thanks Level.

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RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 7:54:38 AM

Level

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You're quite welcome. And really, you may have it right; Ghandi also spoke quite a bit it seems on his thought that one should call wherever they're born and make a living home, makes you think he didn't wish to see the Jewish people pitching a tent where they did. I'm going to read up on it some more as time allows, I'm glad you brought it up.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 48

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 8:50:13 AM

cr0ckdile

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It's amusing to read over and over again that if only Israel gave up some territory, or if only Israel ceased to exist, then the problems of 1.3 billion Muslims would simply vanish. The Arab, and Muslim, world has been using Israel as a pretext since its birth to ignore its problems at home. Why deal with poverty (the Arab world has a combined GDP that is nearly equal to Finland's), tyranny, a Medieval judiciary, when you can rally around the banner of Palestine?

And if they are so concerned for the Palestinians, why have Palestinians who have fled to Syria and Lebanon been kept in permanent refugee camps and not allowed to settle, as citizens, in their new countries? In 1948, the Arab world expelled its Jewish population of several hundred thousands, which was then settled in Israel. Yet the Palestinians' supposed-brethern keep them as permanent refugees.

Muslims don't care about the Palestinians, but they do think destroying Israel will somehow alleviate their conditions. Instability keeps oil prices high and hatred rallies citizens around their governments.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 49

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 9:07:10 AM

meatcleaver

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I totally agree the Arab world has used the Palastinians as a pawn and don't care about them one jot and I believe it was around 4-700,000 Jewish expulsions from the Arab world, depending on the source and what you want to believe. There is also no doubt that the Jewish people need a homeland, you just have to look at the history of expulsions they have suffered.

However, just because the Palestians where betrayed by their so called Arab bretheren (they are just as closely related to the Jews), it doesn't make the injustices done against them any less. They were expelled from their homes and land. Now speaking as a Brit, I wouldn't expect or want to go and live with my European bretheren in Ukraine or Belorus for example if I was ordered out of my home at gun point.

What peace requires is some form of justice and compromise all round so nobody feels humiliated and wronged. That could come in many ways but a two state solution appears the only real option to stop the endless conflict is we don't want another 50 years of it with an increasing danger of war spreading throughout the region.

(in reply to cr0ckdile)

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RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 9:59:35 AM

cr0ckdile

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meatcleaver,

I agree, the two-state solution is the only solution. However, it is foolish to believe that peace begets peace. We have only to look to the 1920's and 30's to see that no matter how hard the European powers tried to maintain peace, they could not. The simple fact is, democracies and dictatorships, or dictatorships and dictatorships, cannot co-exist. Only liberty begets peace, and that is the value we should seek. By liberty I do not refer to national self-determination, which to me is irrelevant (of what worth is it to the individual if he is ruled by a homegrown dictator or a foreign one?), but to individual rights.

Yes, Hamas was "democractically" elected, but that is irrelevant as well. Elections do not make a nation a free society; but rule of law (and I don't mean Sharia), judicial equality, and property rights do. If Arabs and Muslims really want to solve their problems, they must recognize that it is the lack of these fundamental rights, and not Israel, that is the root cause.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 51

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 10:17:07 AM

meatcleaver

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I can agree with you there. Statehood is not necessarily the answer, just one of the options, full and equal rights within the state of Israel is another.

It is just that after 50 years of fighting, does either side have anyone big enough to make the necessary gestures. Unfortunately I doubt it.

There seems little chance of either side having a leader with the vision to make a move, never mind each having a wise enough statesman on both sides at the same time.

(in reply to cr0ckdile)

Post #: 52

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 2:23:10 PM

RPutnamJr

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I'm going to throw in my 2 cents into this conversation since I see bias answers to both sides and to be honest neither side is completely at fault or a saint either once you understand why?

The problem with the middle east is something that goes back centuries to the beginning of recorded time. Throughout recorded time the are has been conquored ruled over by various people,
The Babylonians, Persians, Romans, Egyptians, English, French, Greeks, Ottomans, etc.

I do not know who came first to the land known throughout time as Palestine, be it the Jews or the Arabs. What is known is that in recent recorded history the Palestinian Arabs were the ones currently occuping the land in large numbers.

The problem is that history has a way of taking over events, in this case World War II. With the holecost in Germany and throughout Europe. Then you also have the ending of the age of colonialism. England and France slowly giving up control of their colonies, some more peacefully than others. Also have the expansion of Communism and Socialism at the time.

The USA was not a complete saint during this time nor were other European powers. The US fought for the freedoms from colonialism but also feared the expansion of Communism and Socialism, aka the Soviet Union. The US does what any other country in the world does when faced with fear. The US did what it did to meet our own self interests at the time. So long as you were friendly with us and not the Soviets then you were our friend.

The British though you could say were smart since alot of the problems that arise out of the modern middle east are a direct result of colonialism. One way to keep someone from becoming powerful is to keep them divided. I'll take the Kurds as an example, as an ethnic group they are mostly divided up among three different countries: Iraq, Iran, and Turkey. They are a distinct ethnic group, so why are they divided? They are divided because by keeping them divided they loose power and influence. Why are their more Palestinians in Jordan than Jordanians? Same reason, by dividing up Palestine the Palestinians loose power.

Again though history at the time played a part. With the end of colonialism, Arab nationalism was on the rise. But to keep them down in power the British divided up the lands according to British needs at the time. Under the original plan for Palestine as it was called at the time, The states of Israel and Palestine were supposed to be created in a larger area than just what we currently know as Israel, West Bank, and Gaza. The area was supposed to include a large portion of what we know as Jordan. But the Palestinian area was reduced in order to reduce Palestinian influence in the region. This was accomplished by giving Jordan a large portion of what was supposed to be the new state of Palestine.

Everybody knows that people fight over small crumbs when there are only small crumbs to fight over. People also fight over change. And finally over beliefs. Palestine was reduced in size, Israel also was created and nobody asked the people currently living there if they wanted a Israel to exist in the first place, and Jews have a completely distinct set of beliefs that are different than the Muslims currently living there at the time.

Thus the fight for the crumbs was on as soon as Israel was created by the United Nations. It was not the USA that went in there and created Israel, although we were the first to recognize it as an independant country.

You could say that we did have a hand in Israels creation, but you could also say we had a hand in forming the world at the time. After all Europe would be German, Asia would be Japanese, and who knows what the rest of the world would have looked like if the Axis powers had won the war. And yes the middle east would have been German also. Then you can talk about another holecost if that had happened. Yes we saved the world, not alone either, we did have help from our other Allies. What did we ask for in return? Money to pay for the war? Territory? All we asked for was nothing except for the United Nations to be established so that countries could work out their problems peacefully. Then after winning the war we rebuilt Europe and Asia, yes in our self interest to prevent them from falling into Soviet influence and were we saints in the process...NO. We also bribed and paid for the current new Middle Eastern governments to be our friends vs the Soviets friends. And yes not necessarily to the benefit of their people. Thus are we as Americans at fault for some of the problems...Yes, but not all.

What you have to remember is the time Israel was created...the surviving Jews were promised a homeland thus they migrated to British Palestine at the time. After surviving what they survived they were very militaristic and would not allow what happened during WW II to happen again. The Palestinian's were getting their freedom from British rule at the time also along with all the other Arab colonial countries. Thus it would be like someone coming to your state and telling you right after you got our freedom from the British...oh by the way...all these people who have nothing in common with you are now going to rule over your state as an independent country and you have no say what so ever about it.

Who can blaim the Arabs for fighting for their land? Who can blaim the Jews? After all it was their land once upon a time also, the Bible tells us that. Who won the war between them...simple the Jews. Who won the next war? The Jews. Who has won every war between the two groups. Israel. I have lost track of how many wars have been fought. But if somebody was fighting for your distruction you might get tired of it too. Thus Israel has occupied what was supposed to be the State of Palestine. And to solve their security problems Israel occupied the Golan Heights (Syria), Lebanon, parts of Egypt.

Everybody throughout history has taken control over territory when winning a war. US included if you count the wars with the American Indians, Mexico, Spain, etc. We were the first country to break the trend though...look at WW I, WW II, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I, and eventually Gulf War II once we are finally able to leave.

Israel gave back the lands after their first war of independence, they gave them back after the second war of independence. So can you blaim them for not giving back the territory after their third major war? Egypt made peace...got the Sinai back. Jordan made peace. Lebanon has not made peace, Syria has not made peace, the Palestinians have not made peace. That's three neighbors that have yet to say that Israel has a right to even exist as a state.

Whether they should be there or not is another question. The United Nations said yes when it originally created the states of Israel and Palestine. The Arabs have yet to be convinced. Ask Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria if Israel should exist...the answer is NO.

The Palestinians are finally on the verge of peace with Israel yet they keep taking one step back. Yasser Arafat was offered peace with 90% of what he wanted...but no he wanted 100% so he turned it down. He wants things to go back to the 1948 United Nations agreement which started everything. Lets face it after three major wars, Israel is not going to agree to it. If the Arabs had agreed to it back in 1948 then it would have been a done deal, but no they didn't and now the Palestinians have to pay in territory for their desire for war at the time.

Do the Palestinians still have the desire for war...I believe yes and no...after all they did elect a terrorist, government that wants to destroy Israel. So have they gotten what they asked for, Yes. They have a new small scale war with Israel right now. All Hamas had to do was publically say that Israel had the right to exist and give up violence. Then they would have had all the money the PLO got during Arafats rule. No they would not do that, so they were cut off from money by the international community. Does that make things harder for the Palestinians yes, but who elected Hamas? The Palestinians...thus they made their own problem there. Did Hamas say they'd give up violence? NO again. Was Israel attacking Gaza? No, Israel had pulled out of Gaza, but was continuing to be attacked from Gaza. So do I blaim them for going back in to stop the attacks, for retalliating? No, if it was the US in that position, we would do the same thing.

As for Lebanon, again they would have peace if Hezbollah wasn't there attacking Israel. They just don't have the power to put Hezbollah back in its place, so long as Hezbollah is stronger than Lebanon's military. Hezbollah is receiving money from Iran and Syria. If the money stopped then Hezbollah could be eventually stopped, so long as the money flows then they will remain a pawn to who is supplying them the money to carry out their war against Israel. Do I blaim Israel for attacking? No, again if it was the US we would do the same thing to protect our citizens.

Syria can have peace too if they truely wanted it as well as Iran. Syria would probably have to give up the Golan Heights though as punishment for starting the wars with Israel. And Iran would loose face by having to admit that they did not defeat and destroy Israel like they say they will. Neither though has decided that war with Israel is worth giving up yet. Same with the Palestinians, so long as the world community turns a blind eye to their stated goals.

Israel I believe wants peace, they have not attacked Egypt or Jordan since making peace with them. They do not send suicide bombers to attack the Palestinians or fire rockets into Palestinian territory unless provoked by attacks on its citizens first. When Israel responds yes they do it with all their might and they have alot of it compared to their neighbors. You would too if you had neighbors who were out to destroy you. Thus I cannot blaim Israel for its actions.

I cannot blaim the Palestinians either, nobody asked them if Israel should be there and in some ways maybe Israel shouldn't be. The fact is is that Israel does exist and will continue to exist, better get used to it and just make peace. When the Palestinians, Syrians, Lebonese, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranians, etc finally come to realize that then there will be peace in the middle east. So long as they want to fight, there will be fighting.

Just be glad I'm not the one in charge of the US military...I have less patience for this 60 years of bullshit. Hopefully things are changing. Iraq will have a new government hopefully more responsive to its people, only time will tell. To have done nothing is to keep the status quo, at least we did something good or bad who knows. Saudi Arabia is becoming more open by having elections. Lebanon has peace after a long civil war, if it can survive Hezbollah. Syria is on the chopping block along with Iran. But slowly the world is opening its eyes to both and is getting tired of the BS also. If the world does not wish to take action and Iran and Syria both don't want to change their policies then maybe we will have to push them along like we did Iraq and then hope for the best. Libya is back in the world community fold without firing a shot in a long time once they stopped being beligerant towards the US. Afgahnistan is hopefully improving, women are going back to school, and yes the fight is still on there too. Pakistan is somewhat peaceful, despite our support for a dictator that overthrew a democratically elected government. Again meeting our needs vs the needs of the people.

If Iraq was smart they would stop fighting long enough for us to rebuild them and pull out. I guess if you live under stupidity long enough that makes you stupid. But that is another story.
Peace be to all someday.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 53

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 3:27:03 PM

meatcleaver

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Palestine was not part of the British Empire. Britain was given a mandate at the Versaille Peace Conference after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire after WWI with the promise to set up Israeli and Palestinian states in Trans-Jordania. Neither side trusted the British and both sides thought the British were biased towards the otherside. Britain gave notice to quit and said they wanted to be out by 1948 after several terrorist attacks because it thought it wasn't worth the effort and the UN took over with a five nation council, none of the large powers were represented. It was that council that decided to devide the territory into a Jewish and Palestinian state. Most Jews agreed and the Palestines rejected the proposal. Menachin Begin the Irgun leader rejected the proposal saying Israel couldn't be divided. On British withdrawal, an Israeli state was set up unilaterally without agreement with the Palestinians who called on other Arab states to help them. This started the first Arab-Jewish war. The Arabs failed in their attempt to prevent Israel being set up. Many Palestinians fled and many more were forcibly removed from their homes at gunpoint. There were several waves of Palastinian expulsions by the Jewish brigades.

If you think that the Palestinians are war mongering people because they are muslim and that is what muslims do. (Don't forget many of the Palestinians were Christian). Read about Nakba. If the Palestinians were so violent and war like, why was if so easy to remove them? The fact is that Israel was set up by terrorism. Now it is de facto a state and there is no going back to the original situation, things have to be worked out from here. But don't say the Palestinians don't have reason to feel a great injustice was done to them. 750,000 were displaced. Even today there are several different classiifications for Palestinians in Israel, including the Orwellian classification 'present absentee'.

(in reply to RPutnamJr)

Post #: 54

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 3:45:44 PM

meatcleaver

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6 million Palestinians remain refugees.

According to international law and which is recognised by all western powers.

1. Refugees have the right to return to their homes of origin

2. Receive real property restitution.

3. Compensation for losses and damages.

As a solution, only repatriation or return is a right recognized under international law.

Israel refuses return because it says there is no room in Israel and the Palestinians are a security risk.

Result. Nearly 60 years of being refugees.

If western powers refuse to recognise the Palestinians rights under international law, is it any wonder that Palestinians have turned to terrorism when their plight was started by terrorism?

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 55

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/22/2006 4:00:32 PM

popeye1250

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Being an American of Irish descent I don't care for either side.
I just don't have a dog in that fight.
I wish that my govt. would stop giving my taxdollars to foreign countries!
I was raised Catholic. Maybe that's why I don't care about any religion. As for Gandi I don't care about Hindus either.
Imagine swatting a fly and thinking it's your grandmother or some such foolish nonsense?
They should probably bulldose or demolish every single "holy site" in the Middle East so that there's no more "religion" over there.
Make them all agnostics.
When this crap comes on the t.v. here I just go "Click". I'd rather watch golf, or paint dry!
Just keep the U.S. out of it.
NO MORE MONEY!

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 56

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/23/2006 10:58:54 AM

Master96

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RPutnamJr
As for Lebanon, again they would have peace if Hezbollah wasn't there attacking Israel. They just don't have the power to put Hezbollah back in its place, so long as Hezbollah is stronger than Lebanon's military. Hezbollah is receiving money from Iran and Syria. If the money stopped then Hezbollah could be eventually stopped, so long as the money flows then they will remain a pawn to who is supplying them the money to carry out their war against Israel. Do I blaim Israel for attacking? No, again if it was the US we would do the same thing to protect our citizens.

Many people are upset by Syria and Iran involving I Lebanon. I have a question though… do you know why Hezbollah kidnapped the Israeli solders? The answer is about Arabic prisoners in Israel, which include anti-Israel activists, women and underage boys and girls. If Hezbollah trusts, with the rest of all Arabs, Israel to fee those prisoners; Hezbollah wouldn’t kidnapped the solders at the first place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RPutnamJr
Syria can have peace too if they truely wanted it as well as Iran. Syria would probably have to give up the Golan Heights though as punishment for starting the wars with Israel. And Iran would loose face by having to admit that they did not defeat and destroy Israel like they say they will. Neither though has decided that war with Israel is worth giving up yet. Same with the Palestinians, so long as the world community turns a blind eye to their stated goals.

I agree with meatcleaver when he mentioned refugees’ rights. I’m from a Circassians from Golan Heights. And I’m living in Jordan. I want my parents house in Jeweza village over there. It is our house there, me and my sister.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RPutnamJr
Israel I believe wants peace, they have not attacked Egypt or Jordan since making peace with them. They do not send suicide bombers to attack the Palestinians or fire rockets into Palestinian territory unless provoked by attacks on its citizens first. When Israel responds yes they do it with all their might and they have alot of it compared to their neighbors. You would too if you had neighbors who were out to destroy you. Thus I cannot blaim Israel for its actions.

Well, they are attacking Palestinians with heavy tanks and F-16. Many times Hamas and the Arabic states offered armistice. But Israel wants to disarm Hamas to be able to hit Palestinians without defending themselves against the Apache and F-16.

I’m neither pro-Hamas nor Hezbollah, but I’m trying to give people on CM what most of Arabs thinks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Just keep the U.S. out of it.

The Americans didn’t handle loosing 20 solders in Somalia, and handing 2000 loses in Iraq. I wonder why? Hummmmmm….. does Somalia has oil?

Master96,

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 57

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/23/2006 11:08:25 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Master96

Many people are upset by Syria and Iran involving I Lebanon. I have a question though… do you know why Hezbollah kidnapped the Israeli solders? The answer is about Arabic prisoners in Israel, which include anti-Israel activists, women and underage boys and girls. If Hezbollah trusts, with the rest of all Arabs, Israel to fee those prisoners; Hezbollah wouldn’t kidnapped the solders at the first place.

Hmmmmm. Did not Hezbollah come into existence for the sole purpose of getting the Israeli army out of Lebanon? Once that was accomplished, they didn't disband; maybe they are not easily contented.....

I agree with meatcleaver when he mentioned refugees’ rights. I’m from a Circassians from Golan Heights. And I’m living in Jordan. I want my parents house in Jeweza village over there. It is our house there, me and my sister.

I can't see Israel giving up Golan, it would make attacks far easier if they did; if they gave up an equal or greater amount of land elsewhere, would that be seen as suitable by any Palestinians? I understand if the answer is no, I'm just curious.

Well, they are attacking Palestinians with heavy tanks and F-16. Many times Hamas and the Arabic states offered armistice. But Israel wants to disarm Hamas to be able to hit Palestinians without defending themselves against the Apache and F-16.

Israel, and others, see Hamas as speaking with a forked tongue. Hard to believe them when they offer an armistice and chant death to Israel at the same time.

I’m neither pro-Hamas nor Hezbollah, but I’m trying to give people on CM what most of Arabs thinks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Just keep the U.S. out of it.

The Americans didn’t handle loosing 20 solders in Somalia, and handing 2000 loses in Iraq. I wonder why? Hummmmmm….. does Somalia has oil?

Master96,

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Master96)

Post #: 58

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/23/2006 2:12:33 PM

Master96

Posts: 593
Joined: 2/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile
It's amusing to read over and over again that if only Israel gave up some territory, or if only Israel ceased to exist, then the problems of 1.3 billion Muslims would simply vanish. The Arab, and Muslim, world has been using Israel as a pretext since its birth to ignore its problems at home. Why deal with poverty (the Arab world has a combined GDP that is nearly equal to Finland's), tyranny, a Medieval judiciary, when you can rally around the banner of Palestine?

And if they are so concerned for the Palestinians, why have Palestinians who have fled to Syria and Lebanon been kept in permanent refugee camps and not allowed to settle, as citizens, in their new countries? In 1948, the Arab world expelled its Jewish population of several hundred thousands, which was then settled in Israel. Yet the Palestinians' supposed-brethern keep them as permanent refugees.
Muslims don't care about the Palestinians, but they do think destroying Israel will somehow alleviate their conditions. Instability keeps oil prices high and hatred rallies citizens around their governments.

It isn’t fare to say that Muslims don’t care about Palestinians. Well, the Arabic governments, maybe!
On the other hand I agree with you that the Israeli-Palestinian issue isn’t the cause to the Arabs or Muslims problems. It is the symptom of our disorder of being divided, this disorder which enables other nations to colonize us. But sadly most Arabs and Muslims believe in conspiracy theory; where the western nations along side with Israel are stopping in the face of Arabs and Muslims developing.

Regarding refugees…because it isn’t right; they, the Palestinians, have to return to their homes which are occupied now. Also, it was wrong when the Arab world expelled its Jewish population, if they want to move to Palestine, that’s OK. Just without taking other people (Palestinians) homes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I can't see Israel giving up Golan, it would make attacks far easier if they did; if they gave up an equal or greater amount of land elsewhere, would that be seen as suitable by any Palestinians? I understand if the answer is no, I'm just curious.

Why wouldn’t they (the Palestinians) see it suitable when Israel give up any land?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Israel, and others, see Hamas as speaking with a forked tongue. Hard to believe them when they offer an armistice and chant death to Israel at the same time.

Well, Sinn Féin party in Ireland never recognized the British autherity over northenireland. Enven though, the Brithish talked with them and made peace. When Hamas never, at least directly, recognizeIsraell; that isn’t the main difficulty infront peace process.

Thanks,
Master96,

< Message edited by Master96 -- 7/23/2006 2:15:35 PM >

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 59

RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations - 7/23/2006 4:11:17 PM

Estring

Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I’m neither pro-Hamas nor Hezbollah, but I’m trying to give people on CM what most of Arabs thinks.

How about the giving the people on CM the truth on what most Arabs think about the right of Israel to exist? If Hamas and Hezbollah quit attacking Israel, there would be peace. If Hamas and Hezbollah recognized Israel's right to exist, there would be peace. But the truth is, that will never happen.

_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

(in reply to Master96)

Post #: 60

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