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Littlepita -> More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 9:47:02 AM)

 I got this off another forum and happen to think it has some very interesting things to say about the nation of Israel and her neighbors. I didn't want to intrude on someone else's thread so I started a new one. Hope that is OK?   A List Of Facts:


http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts.php


More Facts:

For those of us who believe that the "Israeli Occupation" has been bad for the Palestinian people, these facts may change your perception. The "occupation" seems to have brought nothing but good to the Palestinians - we can only imagine how much worse they would be if Israel hadn't helped them!

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts2.php


What Does The Koran Say?

People assume that the Koran (Q'aran - Muslim holy scriptures) has anti-Israel passages. While there is no doubt some level of anti-Jewish sentiment in the Koran, there are many passages that are actually in support of a Jewish state of Israel! The following are eleven passages showing the support for a Jewish state in the Muslim holy scriptures.

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/koran.php

[Mod Note:  Content deleted, links remain.  Please don't paste huge amounts of content from other websites into forum posts]



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 9:55:00 AM)

Prophecy is meaningless superstition. History can be discussed until we are blue in the face. What is needed is some sort of justice so both peoples can live side by side, even if they ignore each other. Their are people still alive who remember being turned out of their homes at gunpoint and told not to return.



Littlepita -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 10:02:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Prophecy is meaningless superstition. History can be discussed until we are blue in the face. What is needed is some sort of justice so both peoples can live side by side, even if they ignore each other. Their are people still alive who remember being turned out of their homes at gunpoint and told not to return.


Prophecy is only meanlingless when it isn't fullfilled. [;)]

Look at the map of the Middle East. I'm really sure that one of those great big, oil producing lands could have helped the poor Palestinians if they really wanted to. Of course they don't. Why is that?



Estring -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 10:20:48 AM)

The Palestinian people have been used as pawns by the Arab states ever since the creation of Israel. They were told to stay where they were because it was assumed that Israel would be destroyed by the strength of all the Arab nations against it. There is no reason that they couldn't have been taken in by any or all of the surrounding countries, except that they are more valuable as a propoganda tool to get world sympathy.



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 10:23:06 AM)

I doubt many Arab countries have any real interest in the Palastinians apart from using them as a pawn. Many kicked out Jews under the pretext of having to find space for the Palastinians. However, that doesn't nullify the injustices suffered by the Palastinians or their claim for their own state. It just shows up the Arab states for what they are but many have to take a rhetorical stance even if they don't want conflict because of the wider political picture and their domsetic audiences.

However, telling the Palastinians to go and live in Iraq or Saudi Arabia is like telling a Dutch person to go and live in the Ukraine, there is really nothing in common apart from a religion.



Lilmissbossy -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 10:24:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Littlepita

We can only imagine how much worse they would be if Israel hadn't helped them!


Now i've read everything.  If nothing else, at least that's amusing.



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 10:27:15 AM)

Yep. Stole their houses and land at gunpoint. If that is help, I'd hate to think what unhelpful is!



shivvy -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 10:29:28 AM)

Fast reply
 
sorry, i don't really understand all the politics and stuff, i just see children suffering, and i think that's wrong.. i'm irish, (admittedly from dublin and not NI) and we had our own problems, which are now only getting sorted out peacefully. i think terrorism is wrong, but so is bombing innocent people.
 
i honestly don't know wot the answer is, but i just wish they could settle all their arguements playing chess or something, and whoeva wins, wins.
 
edited to add, even after some of the really bad stuff the ira did to the english, you neva saw english aeroplanes bombing belfast.



Lilmissbossy -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 10:35:30 AM)

Littlepita, "MiddleEastFacts.com" is not an independent website.  It's owned, created and advertised by supporters of Israel with a vested interest in promoting Zionism.

That should have been apparent at page one.



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 10:49:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

There is no reason that they couldn't have been taken in by any or all of the surrounding countries, except that they are more valuable as a propoganda tool to get world sympathy.


Actually, there are Christian Palastinians too. Why would they want to go to other Islamic countries?



Littlepita -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 11:15:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

Littlepita, "MiddleEastFacts.com" is not an independent website.  It's owned, created and advertised by supporters of Israel with a vested interest in promoting Zionism.

That should have been apparent at page one.


Ohhhhhhhh and that is a problem? Why?



OO8OO88O8 -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 12:04:12 PM)

Quick note on the Koran. The problem with it is that like other religious documents, it is very ambiguous. There are quotes that can be used to support anything. There are many calling for violence and the murdering of non-believers. There are some calling for peace and tolerance and even some direct quotes calling for the respect for Jesus Christ.

Israel's hands are jsut as dirty as their counterparts. I understand that when you are dead smack in the middle of the most volatile part of the world, you cna never show weakness. However you don't have to lower yourself to your enemy. I am tired of the media presenting Israel as the "good guy." When a woman does not want to be searched, you don't shoot her 3 times, put her in a coma, and then when she comes out of the coma, put her in jail. When there is a protest, you don't use bulldozers to break it up.

I understand you want to go after the Hezbollah, but work with the Lebanese. They don't want them there either. It's that they don't have enough muscle to remove them. Problem is they are a new government and are still very weak. People seem to forget that Beruit was shelled. It was just finally getting back on it's feet. When the country was destroyed it was rebuilt as a democracy and there are elections. Instead of working with the country and letting them keep their integrity, Israel is turning them into a parking lot.

Israel should be working with Lebanon. Israel should be concentrating their forces against Iran. Hezbollah is Iran's puppet. Iran doesn't believe we would nuke them without just cause. I don't think they hold the same thoughts for Israel. If Israel even bluffed using the nukes that they don't have but everyone knows they have (numbering at about 200 warheads,) Iran would blink. They don't have nukes yet.



OO8OO88O8 -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 12:06:25 PM)

I think I need a new keyboard.



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 12:16:27 PM)

Thinking about this, I think this war is down to Israel having a new leader Ehud Olmert and his trying to prove he can be as dirty and as macho of Sharon. A lot of lives he's taking to prove it too. He should be on trial with Bush and Blair and all the others who claim to be upholding civilisation.

So let's show them scummy Islamists how civilised we really are and put them all on trial along with Saddam.



Master96 -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 12:19:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Littlepita
...I didn't want to intrude on someone else's thread so I started a new one. Hope that is OK?


No problem.

I'd like to emphasize what I said in my thread...

Terrorism can be done by individuals, organizations or states.

Is Hezzbollah a terrorist organization? By the Israeli and western nations yes.

Is Israel a terrorist state? In the Arabs eye that’s definitely true.

Not all Lebanese agree with Hezzbollah. But all of them agree that Palestinian refuges should return to Palestine; which is an Israeli taboo!

Does anyone care about Lebanese, Palestinian and other Arabs prisoners in Israel? Seems no to the Arabs. But the entire world cares about two Israeli solders.

That is Hezzbollah’s claim: Nobody cares about you Arabs. We’ll return the prisoners as we did in 2000.

When anyone says Israel has the right to exist. To Arabs it is like saying the Apartheid in South Africa had the right to exist. Why would some Europeans had the right to exist in South Africa with black people suffering?

Arabs don’t have issue with Jews. In fact many Arabs are Jews. There are Iraqi, Syrian, Yemeni, Egyptian and other Jewish Arabs. So there is no any problem to the Arabs with Jewish people living in Palestine. The problem is with Zionism; which is Israeli’s foundation.

Zionism is stated to be a racist movement by the United Nations.

Please take Arabs opinions seriously. Please respect the Arabic people. Please try to look through the Arabic eyes.

I’m not saying that I or all Arabs are happy with Hezzbollah or Hamas. But it seems to be that they are the only people care about us.

Arabs are more welling to establish friendship with the west; even people like Hamas.
Hamas stopped every activity against Israel after winning the elections; for about a year. But nobody valued that. Anyway they resumed after the Gaza beach’s massacre.  

The problem is that the west is supporting dictators in the Middle East. If America respects Arabs choice, all the problems will be solved.

Ps: I’m not Arabic. I’m from the Circassian minority in Middle Eeast.

Thanks to everyone cares about innocent Lebanese, Palestinians.

Master96,



Mercnbeth -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 1:04:36 PM)

quote:

Hamas stopped every activity against Israel after winning the elections; for about a year. But nobody valued that. Anyway they resumed after the Gaza beach’s massacre.  


96,

According to this, pro Hamas article this is not accurate. Although the article is directed to the inappropriate Israel response it does not indicate that Hamas ever completely stopped lobing shells into Israel.  
quote:

From March 29, 2006 until June 13, 2006, Israel dramatically upped its attacks, firing 4748 artillery shells and 107 missiles while Palestinians shot 455 Qassams - 10.7 Israeli strikes per Qassam fired. After March 28, Palestinians did increase the average number of Qassams they fired from 24.5 per week to 41.4 per week.
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4844.shtml
 
The massacre occurred as a consequence to a Qassam rocket being fired 1,300 feet from where the Israeli shelling killed 7 wounding 30 more. The launching point was the target. Was it deliberately fired from a target difficult to hit without killing civilians? Hamas has that answer. But that it was launched by them is not in question.
 
The Israel response at the time;
quote:

The Israeli commander for the south, General Aviv Kochavi, called the incident "an accident" and said the army was investigating whether a shell had missed its target 400 meters, or 1,300 feet, from the beach.

 
Hamas is the only viable military in Lebanon. There is no balancing power within Lebanon or it's government. The situation is similar to a one sided Vietnam, where Iran is supplying rudimentary armament and equipment to poke the Israeli border. The Qassam are useless as an effective military weapon, but if they land on or near you, it will still kill. As the government whose people are the target should you ignore their daily launching and tell you're people to deal with the inconvenience? Of course the Israeli response is comparably "inappropriate". Tell me, what is? Based upon Hamas, they didn't stop even after the election.
 
There are no innocent governments involved in this war. A pox on both houses.
 
There are plenty of innocent people dieing and hurt on both sides of the border.



juliaoceania -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 1:12:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Littlepita

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

Littlepita, "MiddleEastFacts.com" is not an independent website.  It's owned, created and advertised by supporters of Israel with a vested interest in promoting Zionism.

That should have been apparent at page one.


Ohhhhhhhh and that is a problem? Why?


Yes it is a problem if you want to discuss things in a factual and unbiased way. It is kinda like asking Native Americans or Westward expansionists to give an unbiased view on American history.. perhaps that analogy might be helpful in understanding how bias can taint information

You can give any information and by omission or by including irrelevant facts skew the interpretation of the actual facts at hand



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 1:15:09 PM)

Read this by Sandy Tolan. If you don't know who she is, google her name.

Start at the sub heading Castrophe if you can't be bothered to read it all.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2006/07/palestinian_catastrophe.html?welcome=true

As pollux reminded me. Sandy Tolan is a man. Just read it and pages 2 & 3.



maybemaybenot -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 1:57:08 PM)

Master96:
I was wondering if you would give us your own views on this topic, since you are living there and have a closer view of what is happening. Thank You for sharing your thoughts.

I posted in your other thread that I find this whole situation very Hitleresque. As you probably read, I cannot in any fashoion ratioanalize or condon the actions of Hezzbollah. But a greater thing concerns me. Hezzbollah is an Arab organization/terrorist group. It is backed by Iran, a non Arab country whose relationship with the Arab world has been rocky at best. Only 3 % of the population of Iran is Arabic. Iran backs Hezzbollah, which is dividing some of the Arab world. Some Arab countries have come out and said, in the last few days, that they will not support/condone Hezzbollahs current attack.

I would offer that this has caused or will cause a split within the Arab world.Lebanon is already considering siding with Hezzbollah. A Democratic, peaceful people, who are probably only siding with Hezzbollah because of the destruction that is happening to their country and citizens. As with Hitler.. once he had Poland.. the rest was just a matter of time. Iran is using Hezzbollah  to get to the greater goal of conquering the Arab world. If Hezzbollah suceeds, Iran will not give one fig about Hezzbollah, unless they can promote their greater cause.  < this paragraph is theoretical and how I see the future playing out >

If I were an Arab, living in an Arab country, I would be very uncomfortable with the Israel/Hezzbollah situation.. for more than it's face value. Iran is at the root of this, and Iran has not been very secretive about their goal of Islamic Revolution. History has shown Iran not to be a friend to the Arab countries and my guess is it has not changed it's spots in the last year or two.

I pray for all the innocent Lebanese, Palestinians and Israelis. Many forget that there are innocent Israelis being killed in this too. Yesterday, three Israeli Arab children were killed by one of Hezzbollahs rocket attacks on Nazereth. Nazareth has a very large Arab population and is not only a Christian Holy City, but also an Islamic Holy City.
                          mbmbn 



pollux -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 2:21:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You can give any information and by omission or by including irrelevant facts skew the interpretation of the actual facts at hand


Kind of like this business about Israel bulldozing homes with the families still inside?  And meatcleaver claiming that Israel receives three times the amount of US aid that Egypt does?




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