Phydeaux
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Joined: 1/4/2004
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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
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I have no idea what you or zonie are smoking - I don't mean to be caustic -
And to think I was trying to extend an olive branch after our unpleasant discussion in that other thread...
You don't mean to be caustic, but you are anyway. What else can I expect from you?
I appreciate your efforts to reach across the divide.
But seriously, my comment was not meant to be caustic. What you regard as a slight difference is a HUGE difference to those on the right. You saying it is slight casually dismisses the concerns of about 36% of the american population.
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The phony issue of Obamacare is a perfect example. The proper leftist solution would have been nationalized health care, or at least stringent price controls in the area of medicine and health insurance to make it more affordable. But both the Democrats and Republicans obviously agreed that they wouldn't do that, and instead ended up with this bogus plan. (And as for the right, if they were true to their free-market principles, they would have supported that in the healthcare field, where a good start might have been eliminating controlled substances and the laws which require doctor's prescriptions to obtain medicine. Talk about government interference in the private sector. Where was their devotion to the free market on that one? Do you have an answer, Phydeaux?)
1. The democrats tried for more than 9 months to get single payer. They couldn't get it passed inside their own caucus with Stupak and Baucus opposed.
2. Republicans and democrats did not agree they would not do that. Democrats drove the process; bypass the usual mechanism of committee meetings and instead made all the major decisions at democrat retreats. Public record. Google it.
3. The republicans had no input into this 'bogus plan'. (We agree its bogus). Not a single republican vote, nor a single republican amendment.
4. It is commonly, erroneously said that conservatives are against any government involvement in free markets. Thats not true. There is widespread support for the ideas that government standardizes weights and measures, for example. Government sets rules so that meat is not contaminated. In the same way, the government sets professional standards requiring what a doctor, engineer, or lawyer must demonstrate proficiency in. Government rules also control the standardization, packaging, medical testing, and access to drugs.
No republican stands against these provisions. Representing that they do is simply untrue. Representing that republicans are simplistically in favor of 'free markets' deliberately and purposefully misrepresents what republicans stand for.
In particular, regarding obamacare and health insurance - the republican position is/was:
a). That government oversite into what would be required coverage represented an unwarranted intrusion into peoples freedom to choose and insurance plan right for them.
b). That government cuts to medicare, to the tune of 791 billion dollars undercut one of the few areas of healthcare that were widely popular and working well, the medicare part b, (etc) plans.
c). That the obamacare insistence on abortion coverage violated prior precedent (the Hyde act) and the religious liberties of millions americans unnecessarily.
d). That the act was passed shadily using bribes (cornhauser kickbacks, louisianna purchase), shabby Byrd dropping rulings, reconciliation, and "deemed to have passed. Additionally, the Reid filled the ammendment tree and modified the senate rules of order mid session.
e). The act was bad policy as, after a brief honeymoon, it lowered medicare and medicaid reimbursements to doctors.
f). It cut successful Health savings accounts because these were a viable republican alternative, and hence a threat.
g). It represented the largest tax increase in the history of our country.
h). It would never work. (As indeed it is not working). People that would sign up would be sicker than expected, causing rates to rise, entering a classic insurance death spiral. Said spiral already commencing.
i). The comment that if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor was a lie - as preliminary documents filed in the federal register showed the obama administration expected up to 80% of people to lose their coverage. The figure of saving $2500 in premiums per family - was also blatant nonsense.
j) That the idea that *not buying something* was a function of interstate commerce was an unconstitutional expansion of federal power. With the adoptation of this standard, the supreme court has essentially ruled that ANYTHING can now be interpreted as insterstate commerce.
k. That the structure of obamacare was an unfunded mandate. IE, it passed what was a government mandate - you must buy insurance - but more than 2/3 of the cost of obamacare are not paid by the federal or state governments - rather by people that had insurance.
l. That the creation of 169 new federal bodies was.. ridiculous.
M. That it would result in the government paying for an ever increasing share of insurance - ie. it was lie, and a trojan horse towards single payer. And in fact, the amount of people getting their insurance through private means has dropped 10% during the time of obamacare.
n. No meaningful improvement of health would occur. Which has been shown by study after study.
I could go on - but you get the idea.
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The Republicans and Democrats want the people to think that there's a huge difference between them, when there really isn't. You encourage this deception by arguing as you do, trying to play up these minuscule differences and making them out to be as different as night and day.
You essentially accuse me in arguing of bad faith, unwilling to see that just because you see the differences as minor does not mean that they are.
Frankly, I think your position is unsupportable, as virtually every aspect of american life changes.
Electing a democrat - and you will see more bogus science on climate warming and unworkable mandates for renewable power.
You will see more liberal policies on 'safe spaces', and BLM initiatives, and discussion about reparations.
You will see continued degredation of relgious freedom.
You will see diminished support for israel and a heightened BDS movement.
You can expect further cuts to our military, emboldening China, Russia etc.
Again - I could go on.
< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 4/21/2016 11:20:59 PM >
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RE: Suggested reading for all liberals - 
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