RE: Sustaining respect

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ResidentSadist -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/7/2016 8:58:01 AM)
Indeed... don't get me started. It doesn't cost anything to "pay" respect. I treat strangers with respect, I call strangers like my my waiter 'sir' out of respect and I certainly address people by the the title by which I am introduced. It's just good manners. If you think you have the right to judge whether someone deserves respect or being address formally, you only make yourself look small minded and ill mannered. That whole respect is earned thing is bullshit. Trust is earned, not respect. It seems to me that judgemental people with self image issues feel paying respect props someone else up and somehow puts themselves down. Giving respect only is a reflection of your good manners and I see bad manners as a huge red flag.

catize -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/7/2016 10:15:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant The respect/trust seems to become very blurry in the lifestyle, especially with the 50 shades rush to the lifestyle. Actually, I think it's always been blurry. As a sub female, the number of men that have told me that I have to call them "Sir" or "Master" because I owe them that respect has been huge. And I happen to think that in that case respect is earned. You're telling me that you're qualified at something and/or have an expertise at something and demanding respect because of that. I need to see it and that takes time. After all, I could claim to be the Queen of England and tell you that you need to call me "Your Majesty" and kneel to show respect. Would you? The "dominants" who demand this immediately are not respectful of or courteous to (the general submissive) you. I agree with the OP that respect is a two-way street. I also believe that respect does not necessarily equate with trust in the D/s sense....I can respect people for many things, but that doesn't mean I would trust them enough to submit to them.

Wayward5oul -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/7/2016 11:00:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist It doesn't cost anything to "pay" respect. I treat strangers with respect, I call strangers like my my waiter 'sir' out of respect and I certainly address people by the the title by which I am introduced. It's just good manners. If you think you have the right to judge whether someone deserves respect or being address formally, you only make yourself look small minded and ill mannered. I was raised in the South. Common courtesy is addressing people as ma'am, sir, using titles, etc. I open doors for people I don't know, out of common courtesy, not respect. Not just women or the elderly, but for children, teenagers, and men. I call waiters and waitresses 'sir' and 'ma'am', I also call a young boy who opens a door for me 'sir' when I thank him. And I do thank him. But I do not search out a random stranger and ask for their opinion on matters of importance to me. I search out people who have given me reason to think that their opinion is beneficial, or something I could learn from, someone who has earned my respect. I call my boss sir. Is it because I respect him? Not so much. I don't like him, and as time goes on, I have lost much or the respect that I had for him, years ago. It is professional courtesy. That's all. I also call the younger men in my organization 'sir' when interacting with them. Not because I am showing them any deference or respect. Its just courteous to do so. Some of them I respect for various reasons, and when the occasion arises I act in a manner that indicates as such. That doesn't mean that I am disrespecting everyone else. quote: It seems to me that judgemental people with self image issues feel paying respect props someone else up and somehow puts themselves down. Ishtar hit the nail on the head I think. Her explanation, at least in my interpretation, said that we are encountering two schools of thought here: One where a 'lack of respect' automatically means 'disrespect', which is my eyes is very black and white, with nothing in between. The other where disrespect is at one end of the spectrum, and respect is at the other end, with a 'neutral' lying the middle, or in other words, black and white, but with an acknowledgement of the gray area in between the two. My view of 'disrespect' and 'being judgmental' involves actual effort towards insult, which includes purposely slighting someone, or actively discounting someone. Perhaps something that is intentional? I may not respect my boss, but I would never behave in a discourteous manner towards him. I will extend to him the professional courtesy that is required in the workplace, and the same civility and courtesy that I automatically extend to everyone, as a default. But I will not seek him for anything that matters to me. I see it more as everyone is equal at the beginning, so everyone deserves courtesy and civility. At some point some people will give me reason to think more highly of them in some manner. That's building respect. Some people may, in time, give me reason to think less of them in some manner. That doesn't mean that I automatically treat them as such. I will still treat them with civility and courtesy, until they have given me a reason to actively and intentionally behave otherwise. quote: Giving respect only is a reflection of your good manners and I see bad manners as a huge red flag. My definition of respect towards people, as I practice it, is the idea of esteem. People that I hold in esteem, I indicate that with respect. Good manners are simply courtesy and civility. Bad manners are just bad manners. It says more about me and my upbringing that it says about the person that I direct the bad manners to. It isn't an indication of whether or not I hold them in esteem.

LadyPact -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/7/2016 3:03:11 PM)
This one is going to be long winded. [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant The concept of earning respect has always boggled my mind. I was conditioned at a young age to respect muh elders, teachers, persons in authority etc... however I do have two disadvantages; I am a Gemini and have that hardcore Gemini sense of justice and I am year of the dog (yes, I should've been the Pope or a serial killer driving around the country killing corrupt officials). I was brought up the same way. However, even in your beginning explanation, you are very specifically giving the reasons why you were instructed to give certain persons respect. Those reasons being the difference between courtesy and respect. quote: I extend everyone respect immediately. Now they have the option to lose that respect... many do... or they sustain that respect by behaving in a respectful manner. While I would asses you as going to the upper end of courtesy immediately, in my observation, I couldn't say it would be the same as crossing into the territory of respect. One thing I know about you is that you evaluate people. This is not the same as the standard of manners and civility that is your basic default. It is that evaluation that changes certain interactions. In most of them, if a person has lost your respect, you go back to the default. In extreme examples, where a person's actions leave you no other choice but disdain, it's evident. quote: In the lifestyle I come across the "earn respect" "prove yourself" crap all. the. time. That is further compounded by the idea that D types demand respect and the very very very wrong idea that /s types do not deserve respect. That, right there, is why these discussions regarding courtesy and/or respect don't tend to go well. Unless there is an underlying reason, most people attempting to DEMAND respect, as in more than common courtesy, don't go over well. Tell me or show me why you deserve more than I'm going to give the average person. It sure as heck isn't going to be because somebody picked a label from a drop down menu on the internet. quote: Respect and trust are very very different creatures. It is easy for me to extend respect to anyone, the trust part is extremely hard to earn. However, once earned, I am loyal to the bone (just ask my leather family). I would say this is an exceptionally accurate assessment. quote: The respect/trust seems to become very blurry in the lifestyle, especially with the 50 shades rush to the lifestyle. The pendulum seems to be swinging in EXTREME ways with the respect, earn it, give it, ideas... then we see "I'm the D hear me ROAR" and "you're a D but not my D". Trust is a completely different animal for you but the comparison can work. You don't give trust. For you, that's earned. quote: Respect should be extended to both sides of the kneel up front because they'll either sustain that respect with proper behavior or they'll fuck it up with improper behavior. Nevertheless, respect is one thing and trust is an entirely different creature that should be groomed, nurtured and cultivated into something worthy of you and your time. There isn't a preclusion one way or the other regarding respect for one side of the kneel over the other. That's taking the label over the person in words, acts, and deeds. If you say a person no longer sustains respect via improper behavior, the label doesn't matter. quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Indeed... don't get me started. It doesn't cost anything to "pay" respect. I treat strangers with respect, I call strangers like my my waiter 'sir' out of respect and I certainly address people by the the title by which I am introduced. It's just good manners. If you think you have the right to judge whether someone deserves respect or being address formally, you only make yourself look small minded and ill mannered. That whole respect is earned thing is bullshit. Trust is earned, not respect. It seems to me that judgemental people with self image issues feel paying respect props someone else up and somehow puts themselves down. Giving respect only is a reflection of your good manners and I see bad manners as a huge red flag. This treads into the territory of honorifics in relationship to respect, as opposed to pleasantries. I tend to split this into formal and informal. Yep, my waiter will here "thank you, sir" when taking my order or bringing the check to the table. I've worked customer service and sir or ma'am falls out of my mouth very easily as it's part of the job. Cop pulls me over? You bet. However, that's not my personal life. Titles and honorifics won't happen in that category unless they are freely given.

mousekabob -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/7/2016 3:28:27 PM)
If I stick around in a relationship with you, then I respect you. Otherwise I'd be gone in a heartbeat. I don't stick around where I'm not respected or I don't respect the other person. Seems like a waste of time. As for respecting others, I can count on one hand those I respect in the entire world....very, very, very few.I will give you common courtesy but respect is much deeper and is given because I honor what you do and that's extremely rare in the world.

stef -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/7/2016 11:23:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist I call strangers like my my waiter 'sir' out of respect and I certainly address people by the the title by which I am introduced. It's just good manners. That's courtesy, not respect. quote: If you think you have the right to judge whether someone deserves respect or being address formally, you only make yourself look small minded and ill mannered. That whole respect is earned thing is bullshit. Bless your heart. quote: Trust is earned, not respect. Trust is also earned.

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 6:42:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact This one is going to be long winded. [:D] See, she loves me, really loves me... she doesn't ever slip on kid gloves with me :) So, in an effort for me to wrap my mind around the courtesy/respect conundrum, I'll substitute "respect" with "courtesy" in a few statements that mean something to me... I have a great deal of "courtesy" for the works of: Marcus Aurelius and his meditations. Although I've never met him, I have great "courtesy" for his writing. Ieoh Ming Pei and his architectural genius, although I've never met him, I have a great deal of "courtesy" for his work. Vincent Van Gogh... Brahms, Schubert, Prince, David Bowie, Maria Brink, Georgia O'Keeffe, Voltair, Da Vinci, blah blah blah... The people above never earned my respect, their acts, actions, essence inspired my respect. That said, they may have demons buried within their pasts that could damage the respect I have for them, but until those are revealed I will continue to respect them. I have oodles of respect for ~steff, because she is brilliant and very knowledgable in the lifestyle. I rarely extend her courtesy because her crass nature gives me the heebee jeebies, but that does not diminish the respect I have for her. That said, my personal perception/execution of "respect vs. courtesy" is simply my own. I do not ever put the "best foot forward" because I choose to be me and I do not ever want to "maintain" who I am not (best foot forward). I can/will respect someone for who they are for as long as they are "genuine" in who they are. Clearly I am wired differently because I choose to offer and extend respect until someone proves themselves unworthy of such. Meeting them in person is not a requirement for me to respect them... I have many people on this site that I have a great deal of respect for, Col. Sanders, and have never met them, most likely will not ever meet them, but their consistency in who they are and their ability to ADMIT/OWN their fault(s), failings, or simply acknowledge difference of opinion is all I need to sustain the respect that I freely extended to them sans their need to earn it. Jus sayin

LadyPact -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 7:36:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant See, she loves me, really loves me... she doesn't ever slip on kid gloves with me :) Yeah, but you knew that already. quote: So, in an effort for me to wrap my mind around the courtesy/respect conundrum, I'll substitute "respect" with "courtesy" in a few statements that mean something to me... I have a great deal of "courtesy" for the works of: Marcus Aurelius and his meditations. Although I've never met him, I have great "courtesy" for his writing. Ieoh Ming Pei and his architectural genius, although I've never met him, I have a great deal of "courtesy" for his work. Vincent Van Gogh... Brahms, Schubert, Prince, David Bowie, Maria Brink, Georgia O'Keeffe, Voltair, Da Vinci, blah blah blah... The people above never earned my respect, their acts, actions, essence inspired my respect. That said, they may have demons buried within their pasts that could damage the respect I have for them, but until those are revealed I will continue to respect them. The terms aren't necessarily interchangeable [:)] re·spect rəˈspekt/ noun noun: respect 1. a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. This is something that should be right up your alley because a person's achievements can get you to respect their work. However, other actions can cause you to lose that respect. It will depend on which area holds more value to you. O.J. Simpson, Michael Jackson, Jared Fogle, a number of Catholic priests... Not little stuff or minor mistakes. I do know there are areas where that redemption thing, ain't happening. quote: I have oodles of respect for ~steff, because she is brilliant and very knowledgable in the lifestyle. I rarely extend her courtesy because her crass nature gives me the heebee jeebies, but that does not diminish the respect I have for her. I'd call that personality clash. [8D] Not enough of one to detract from the reasons that you respect her. quote: That said, my personal perception/execution of "respect vs. courtesy" is simply my own. I do not ever put the "best foot forward" because I choose to be me and I do not ever want to "maintain" who I am not (best foot forward). I can/will respect someone for who they are for as long as they are "genuine" in who they are. Clearly I am wired differently because I choose to offer and extend respect until someone proves themselves unworthy of such. Meeting them in person is not a requirement for me to respect them... I have many people on this site that I have a great deal of respect for, Col. Sanders, and have never met them, most likely will not ever meet them, but their consistency in who they are and their ability to ADMIT/OWN their fault(s), failings, or simply acknowledge difference of opinion is all I need to sustain the respect that I freely extended to them sans their need to earn it. Jus sayin I think this is why I liked Ishtar's post on this thread so much. We don't all see this in the same way and the way she illustrated it was quite good. I probably am more the scale type because I interweave it with certain things. Perhaps it could be looked at as you give the respect immediately, but keeping it is the earning part for you. (?)

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 7:38:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Perhaps it could be looked at as you give the respect immediately, but keeping it is the earning part for you. (?) YESSSSS!!!!!

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 7:59:50 AM)
So here's a situation I am having trouble with... As you know I've been adding a second story to muh house... by myself... yep, working alone cuz I'm just not very likable and the budget doesn't allow me to hire a helper. So I am texting back and forth with someone while I was putting the roof on the second story. I had to attend a meeting... city crap... so I put my phone on airplane mode (which is always a bad idea for me because I forget to switch it back until I notice days have gone by and I've not heard from anyone). So, when I switch the phone back on... because I knew the person I was texting was well aware that I was working on a roof and she might be very worried, a very very dismissive text is wot pops up. Not an ounce of concern, just an "oh well". So this one is creating a huge struggle for me because I have a lot of feelings for this person and respect, but looking at the nature of the text and the situation I was in, I am really struggling with it. Instinct is screaming to drop this one like a hot potato but the history I have is creating a lot of struggle for me. That situation was part of the reason I made this thread, though I wanted something that would create some interaction sans the inane crap that dominates the boards, the topic is always a grey-wash of various schools of thought.

Bhruic -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 8:52:41 AM)
I don't think respect and trust are all that different. I think respect can be interpreted in two basic ways... courtesy, and admiration. I automatically extend respect, in the form of social courtesy, to everyone. But I don't automatically admire everyone. I have to know someone before my admiration has any value. Trust can be expressed the same way. One tends to automatically give people the benefit of the doubt that they will behave in a socially acceptable manner, that is a form of automatic trust. But we have to know someone before we extend our trust outside of the socially common place. I agree thought that those higher forms of respect and trust are something that is given, not earned. And the recipient of our respect or trust can only justify the gift and maintain, or show themselves undeserving.

Bhruic -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 9:27:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant So here's a situation I am having trouble with... As you know I've been adding a second story to muh house... by myself... yep, working alone cuz I'm just not very likable and the budget doesn't allow me to hire a helper. So I am texting back and forth with someone while I was putting the roof on the second story. I had to attend a meeting... city crap... so I put my phone on airplane mode (which is always a bad idea for me because I forget to switch it back until I notice days have gone by and I've not heard from anyone). So, when I switch the phone back on... because I knew the person I was texting was well aware that I was working on a roof and she might be very worried, a very very dismissive text is wot pops up. Not an ounce of concern, just an "oh well". So this one is creating a huge struggle for me because I have a lot of feelings for this person and respect, but looking at the nature of the text and the situation I was in, I am really struggling with it. Instinct is screaming to drop this one like a hot potato but the history I have is creating a lot of struggle for me. That situation was part of the reason I made this thread, though I wanted something that would create some interaction sans the inane crap that dominates the boards, the topic is always a grey-wash of various schools of thought. "oh well" seems like a fairly benign reaction to what could be interpreted as your disregard for her concern. It's sounds like she was trying to text you, knowing that you were doing something dangerous, and as far as she could tell you were ignoring her messages. If she was unaware that you were in airplane mode for other reasons, then it is a simple misunderstanding, is it not?

LadyPact -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 9:32:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant So here's a situation I am having trouble with... As you know I've been adding a second story to muh house... by myself... yep, working alone cuz I'm just not very likable and the budget doesn't allow me to hire a helper. So I am texting back and forth with someone while I was putting the roof on the second story. I had to attend a meeting... city crap... so I put my phone on airplane mode (which is always a bad idea for me because I forget to switch it back until I notice days have gone by and I've not heard from anyone). Bahahahahahahaha. This absolutely is one of my faults. I'm very anti-cell phone at the club. On any given Sunday, unless there is a conversation in progress, I am ALWAYS forgetting to turn it back on. (Yes, I had to do just that.) quote: So, when I switch the phone back on... because I knew the person I was texting was well aware that I was working on a roof and she might be very worried, a very very dismissive text is wot pops up. Not an ounce of concern, just an "oh well". What's the alternative here? Did you want her to think you fell off of the roof? quote: So this one is creating a huge struggle for me because I have a lot of feelings for this person and respect, but looking at the nature of the text and the situation I was in, I am really struggling with it. Instinct is screaming to drop this one like a hot potato but the history I have is creating a lot of struggle for me. I can't side with you entirely here. You did contribute in a lack of consistency. What's your policy at this point for messages being an every day thing? quote: That situation was part of the reason I made this thread, though I wanted something that would create some interaction sans the inane crap that dominates the boards, the topic is always a grey-wash of various schools of thought. It's an interesting thread. One we haven't had in a while. [:)]

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 9:58:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant Marcus Aurelius and his meditations. Although I've never met him, I have great "courtesy" for his writing. Ieoh Ming Pei and his architectural genius, although I've never met him, I have a great deal of "courtesy" for his work. Vincent Van Gogh... Brahms, Schubert, Prince, David Bowie, Maria Brink, Georgia O'Keeffe, Voltair, Da Vinci, blah blah blah... The people above never earned my respect, their acts, actions, essence inspired my respect. That said, they may have demons buried within their pasts that could damage the respect I have for them, but until those are revealed I will continue to respect them. You said it yourself: You don't have respect for them as people. You don't know enough about them as people to have respect for them personally. You admire them as people, because they have done great work, but what you respect is not them, but the work. You have respect for the work of all these people. In order for you to be able to have respect for them personally, you would actually have to get to know them, and figure out if there's something about them that triggers you to not respect them as human beings. It's quite possible to disrespect a person, but respect their work. Or some aspect about them. We could find out that Michelangelo was a mass murdering rapist fuck head, and that certainly would make him a less respectworthy human being, but it wouldn't make the Sistine Chapel ceiling any less impressive on the scale of 'human accomplishments'. The respect you have for these people WAS earned. It was earned through the work they did. If the work hadn't been done, you wouldn't feel this respect for them at all, even if you knew about them, just like you don't feel this particular respect for any other historical figures you know about but whose work impresses you less. The reason you feel this respect for these particular historical figures, and not all the others is because this group's work earned your respect, and the others work did not (to the same extend).

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 9:59:41 AM)
quote: because I knew the person I was texting was well aware that I was working on a roof and she might be very worried, a very very dismissive text is wot pops up. Not an ounce of concern, just an "oh well". So you're annoyed the other person wasn't worried enough about you? Really? That seems more than just a little egocentric if you ask me. And this is the reason you started a thread claiming that respect ought to be given without having done anything to earn it? Maybe you should have respected that other person's choice to not be freaked out that you didn't text them right back, or the fact that they might have been busy themselves, maybe they had some "city stuff" to do as well. Or maybe they just had enough respect for your good sense and ability to do the repairs that it never occurred to them to worry.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 10:33:15 AM)
From what I can glean, it almost seems like two different topics. I have been lucky enough to meet a few of the (famous-ish) people whose work I respected. I got to meet them as human beings; not at meet-and-greets for PR purposes and such. I met a few of them at a funeral, where ostensibly, people are on their best behavior, but their defenses are down so one has to take that into account. I've met a couple in clubs and bars and they were usually "affected" by some substance (that's a negative for me, also). I've been lucky enough to meet some of these people before they were "famous" and it gave me insight into their (later on) public personae. So, it's fair to say that few get "put on a pedestal". The other issue seems to be one of indifference in a situation where the person who is being indifferent has no clue as to whether or not they should have tried to call emergency services to see if the OP needed some help/rescuing. I think that's a valid point. I can only equate it to a situation in my own life which is only tangentially related: About a year ago, my "best friend" who lives on the other side of the country was going through a bad time. Her husband was very ill and his condition was exacerbated by being placed on medication that made his symptoms seem worse/caused new issues. She was afraid she was going to lose him. I told her that, of course, I would be there for her and I meant it. Around the same time, my neurologist told me that he thought he might have dropped the ball, when he diagnosed me, four years ago. I had been experiencing lapses in memory and there were some outrageous scenarios, filling in those gaps. As a result, I had decided that until I found out what was going on for sure and until I was "stabilized", I wasn't going to be doing any driving; not for my own safety, but for the safety of others. I shared this information with her and she dove into a hissy fit of epic proportions. She thought she could count on me. I would never let her down. Yadda. Yadda. Yadda. While I took her point, I also realized that there was absolutely no concern for what I was going through. No doubt it is a complex situation, but at the end of the day, I think the answer is simple: if someone is not a friend to us, how can we possibly be a friend to them? Michael

littleclip -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 1:16:41 PM)
being military i give courtesy to rank and position before i even meet the person. as far as respect i give some and with building trust gains more, and the same goes if the trust is not proven and they are just unsafe then i will not respect them at all. i will always give them courtesy but not respect when they have shown themselves to be not worthy of it

ResidentSadist -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 4:35:39 PM)
The very definition of courteous is respectful. You're welcome, you stand corrected. quote: ORIGINAL: stef quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist I call strangers like my my waiter 'sir' out of respect and I certainly address people by the the title by which I am introduced. It's just good manners. That's courtesy, not respect. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Definition cour·te·ous ADJECTIVE polite, respectful, or considerate in manner. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ResidentSadist -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 4:41:06 PM)
I am ashamed of some of you. You sound crazy saying courtesy is not respect. If you think otherwise, you are not in tune with reality. Despite your personal errant definitions and private internal separation of the two words or actions, I regret to inform you of the fact you are being respectful to people with your courtesy. Talk about having some issues . . . wow! Respect isn't a painful thing requiring pretzel logic about young people or authority figures like bosses. When you have to separate courtesy from respect by using errant meanings for the two words, so showing courtesy somehow isn’t being respectful… well, it is hard to understand you say you respect some with courtesy but you don't respect them because it's just courtesy... which actually means respect. Do you see how crazy that sounds? Also I am not prejudice against the BDSM/leather community holding them to higher standards and reserving the free use of words like 'sir' for my vanilla waiter. I can see how some might because of the difference in the formality of the honorifics. But the definition of honorific is also respect... and I respect the leather community as a whole. We are just like the rest of the world, with our share of blowhards and assholes. My waiter might have been an asshole to others, not my job to judge him. Only my job to judge his service to me. So I always address someone with the title I was introduced to them with or that they call themselves. Respect doesn't cost me anything, but disrespect can cost me everything. I pay respect by default and save my disrespect for those that earn it. And for those that earn it, I still use honorifics and call them 'sir' while calling them out.

stef -> RE: Sustaining respect (5/8/2016 5:09:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist The very definition of courteous is respectful. You're welcome, you stand corrected. Again, bless your heart. You should sit corrected and give your jerking knee a rest.

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