meatcleaver
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This is in reply to Popeye and England and Ireland.
It was the Normans that exerted their power in Ireland in the 12th century not England. The English were a conquered race and part of a kingdom that spread from Northern England down through the north and the west coast of France. You could easily say the French exerted their power to 12 century Ireland but my guess they would say it was the Normans who were originally Vikings.
The real problem between England and Ireland started during the religious wars and the transplantations, which started under Elizabeth. There were several reasons for these and I could write a thesis so this is somewhat simplistic. This was a way of shutting the back door to England and so keeping first, the Spanish out and later the French. This was not so much a England v Ireland thing so much as part of the great European chess game.
In popular Irish history Oliver Cromwell is a hate figure. He is accused of genocide which is a load of baloney but such is myth and people prefer myth to the truth. During the wars of the three kingdoms, England, Scotland and Ireland, each having their own civil war and these wars had a lot to do with religion. There was a massacre of English settlers, there are disputes about these numbers and remember it is the 17th century and communications weren’t good and by the time news spread it had gone through a process of Chinese whispers. Cromwell decided to go over to Ireland and pacify it. The situation in Ireland was chaos with four armies fighting each other and spreading anarchy. He did pacify Ireland but 150 years after his death and at the birth of Irish nationalism stories were made up about his time in Ireland to be used as anti-English propaganda. One of the stories was of a Massacre at Drogeda. However, Drogeda was an English Royalist garrison town under the command of Sir John Aston. Cromwell laid siege to Drogeda. According to the rules of war in those days, if a town refused to surrender and the attacking army breached the walls, it was entitled to kill all the men at arms within. The idea behind this was actually to reduce bloodshed. Drogeda had a small Finian quarter but no contemporary records mention civilians so it has been assumed they would have been allowed to leave the town as was the custom at the time. Cromwell’s army breached the walls and did slaughter the entire garrison but these were English Royalist soldiers. As I have said, it was 150 years later before any mention of civilians had been killed of which there is no contemporary written evidence. England was broke at the time and Cromwell decided to pay his army off with land, this is where the ‘Get thee to Connaught!’ comes from. However, Cromwell’s record for changing his mind when his policies have bad outcomes suggest he might have changed this policy if he had lived long enough. It was Charles (Stewart) II a closet Catholic that actually carried out this policy, much to do with filling his own coffers. (It’s worth reading Cromwell: A Honourable enemy by Terry Reilly)
Another myth is one the Protestant Irish hold dear and that is the battle of the Boyne when the Catholic Irish ran away. The fact is that James Stewart having been kicked out of England in the Glorious revolution was being used by Louis IV to extend his power through Ireland and into the back door of England. The great European chess game again. There were more French fighting for James than Catholic Irish and there were more Germans and Dutch fighting for William of Orange than English. In fact William was reluctant to use his English troops because he didn’t trust they would fight against their fellow countrymen, the Irish.
After that you get 200 years of British misrule in Ireland. Note I said British and not English. The Union of England and Scotland had taken place and England was no longer a state that governed itself. The politicians making policy in London were just as likely to be Scottish as English but it is always the English that get the blame because London was the capital.
This is a very simplistic version of a very complex history and huge chunks have been missed out. I just wanted to illustrate England v Ireland has more to do with current politics than any reality that can be gleamed from history.
One interesting thing that has parallels with the middle east. When Ireland was partitioned which I think was stupid. I forget which Norrthern Irish politician said it, called the new state ‘A protestant country for a protestant people.’ Forgetting there was a large minority of Catholics. There was always going to be trouble with that attitude. Just like a Jewish state for a Jewish people with a large minority of Muslims.
< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/21/2006 4:11:05 AM >
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RE: Question to those versed in history. - 
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