Question to those versed in history. (Full Version)

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NeedToUseYou -> Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 7:50:24 PM)

I'm not a history expert, so, I figured I ask the group here a question, as I'm sure more than a few would be able to answer.

The whole Israel thing has got me wondering if there were any similiar situations in the past that worked out peacefully. I can't recall any at the moment. I mean you had US/USSR but that ended in one countries downfall, not direct war but it resulted in a loss none the less. My question is what countries have hated their neighboring state for decades, and went to war occasionally and eventually made peace and became friends, before one lost. Now, I'm wondering about countries that didn't change forms of government, get directly thumped by the adversary(basicly didn'tlose land, forced to make friends by economics, or direct loss of country). But when has it occurred where two countries both capable of fighting just stopped, after a LONG history of war without any  change in government type, or collapses in infrastructure and gained normal relations.

I understand it is quite frequent when the defeated and the victor end up being buddies eventually(US and Japan), especially when the conflicts are short and singular. But I'm wanting examples of countries coming to their senses  and making peace while both are still in a good position to fight.

There probably are many, but I just can't think of any long term enemy countries, making friends without defeat being involved.








Arpig -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 7:54:54 PM)

Interesting question indeed. Off the top of my head I can think of one example, Britain and France, who became close allies around the turn of the century, after being bitter enemies for literaly their entire history as nation states.
They still dislike eachother, but it is now a cultural dislike rather than a bloodthirsty hatred as in times past.

I can't think of any others at the moment, but I suspect you will be surprised how rarely it has happened.




CrappyDom -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 8:41:17 PM)

Britain and America
America and Germany
Japan and America

The common thread is that we forgive, neither Israel nor the Arabs are willing to forgive as the fights on these boards attest to.  When they begin to worry more about the future than the past.




NeedToUseYou -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 8:54:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Britain and America
America and Germany
Japan and America

The common thread is that we forgive, neither Israel nor the Arabs are willing to forgive as the fights on these boards attest to.  When they begin to worry more about the future than the past.


Ummm, I was asking for peace without defeat. Japan was defeated, Germany was defeated, and Britian was defeated or rather decided it wasn't worth it. I'm looking for peace without loosing anything between warring parties.




SCORPIOXXX -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 8:54:28 PM)

Arpig brings up France and Britain; Crappy Dom has an equally valid list. I would disagree however on Forgiveness as the motivation for peace and friendly relations between two formerly inimical countries (even as their resective governments change).

Rather, business and commerce are the motivation; if it's easier to do business than fight and conquer, then do business!

In Thomas Pynchon's great book GRAVITY'S RAINBOW is the immortal line: "The business of war is business. That is why it's too important to be left to the generals."... (Sure enough, see Halliburton/Chaney today)... In turn, business does lead to forgiveness -- and that makes everybody feel good: nice palliative for the populace -- because you can't do real business if the roads keep getting blown up...

Sadly, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is ruled by faith more than commerce: there is no solution as long as the religious extremists on eiher side are running the war -- it's pathetic...




SCORPIOXXX -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 8:56:36 PM)

Geeze, that will take some research, lol...




mnottertail -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 8:59:33 PM)

my answer...........no, there is no situation that works out ever, like that unless you are willing to give a generational time frame.




NeedToUseYou -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:07:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

my answer...........no, there is no situation that works out ever, like that unless you are willing to give a generational time frame.


Then wouldn't the quickest path to peace be through all out war? I mean if we can't find  example countries that did what we want Israel and it's neighbors to do make peace without any real loss, then what is the point of delaying the inevitable history is apparently showing will occur at some point? That is sort of what I'm wondering, if war is even really avoidable in such situations. It's not appearing thus far it happens hardly at all in reality.





anthrosub -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:09:03 PM)

I can't think of any previous conflicts that resemble the Arab/Israeli muddle by any stretch of the imagination.  What I can say is most conflicts have been unique in their origins and how they were finally played out over time and ultimately lost steam.  I'm not fluent in history but I have run across some interesting tidbits here and there.  For example, the great naval battles that involved countries like Spain, Great Britain, and France were to a large extent spurred over fishing and farming if you can believe it. 
 
Before refrigeration was invented, most countries in Europe were very dependent on good harvests to see the population through the winter.  To add extra insurance, fish was caught at sea and salted, then packed in specially made ice houses that were made out of layers of straw and mud to keep them on ice.  These buildings were so efficient that the ice would last almost through the summer (keep in mind the summers were much cooler during this period of history).  The harvest was consumed in the winter months and the fish during the summer while the next harvest was growing.  If the harvest was poor, the need for fish increased as it would then be needed for both seasons.
 
Anyway, each country would lay claim to the areas where fishing was plentiful and on several occasions, disputes over the fishing claims erupted into warfare at sea.  With the discovery of the new world and new areas to be fished, this removed a lot of the pressure.  This was not the sole reason for the countries fighting each other but it was a significant one.
 
Finally, there's a great book you can read by James Dunnigan called, "How to Make War."  Oddly enough, it's really quite fascinating as it discusses details nearly everyone is not aware of.  In the book, there's a quote...
 
"Economics determine politics and politics determine war."
 
I wonder how this might apply to the problems between the member states of the Middle East.
 
By the way, we defeated the Soviets using credit and basically forced them into bankruptcy.  Reagan knew that Soviet doctrine calls for having 3 times the number of weapons the enemy has.  So he started building up our military (on credit) and got thought of as a warmongering president as a result.  The Soviets met this by trying to build up their own military (3 times our size).  Since the United States has more financial solvency with the free world and the Soviet Union is basically a closed monetary system and unable to work with the global market as easily, they ran out of cash.
 
After the cold war ended, we sold off or scrapped a lot of our inventory.  We sold a lot of our hardware to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War ended (which was right on the heels of the end of the Cold War).
 
anthrosub




popeye1250 -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:18:30 PM)

How about Ireland and England?
They've been fighting for 800 years.
It is somewhat peacefull in N. Ireland now and neither country was vanquished.




NeedToUseYou -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:18:58 PM)

I didn't consider that aspect, but unfortunately, I don't see any of the factors changing in the Israel situation, like the fishing situation changed in the past that brought those countries into a less conflicted situation.




mnottertail -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:26:26 PM)

Oh, if that is the situation, then I am your boy............

I have made a legion and a multitude of mistakes in life.......

I can live with it. 

But here is the thing.......If world opinion means anything, and it does to politicians (because they would like to look good in history books)  then  it is clearly untenable............

It is one thing to take down Grenada..........

It is a tottally different aspect to handle the middle east.  Why should we?  They have been de-stabilized (I love that shit) since christ was a corporal.

Consider your safety or any thing else...............

None of this has to do with 9/11.................

I can not make any logical argument because there is nothing to argue...............

The Isrealies attacking Lebanese is of no concern to any one....................



Make room for Daddy had nothing to do with me, and I am of no help..............

LOL,

But I liked him.






NeedToUseYou -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:27:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

How about Ireland and England?
They've been fighting for 800 years.
It is somewhat peacefull in N. Ireland now and neither country was vanquished.


I'm going to read about that more like what exactly was done, and why it changed, or if the reasons are at all similiar for the conflict, maybe it could give me some hope for the present situation in the middle east.  I can't believe I forgot about that one. LOL.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:29:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

How about Ireland and England?
They've been fighting for 800 years.
It is somewhat peacefull in N. Ireland now and neither country was vanquished.


I was actually thinking similarly, but using Southern Ireland and Great Britan. I'm not sure if it fills the OPs criteria however. Given that while Southern Ireland has Home Rule, it is still under the Monarchy.

          mbmbn




mnottertail -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:31:49 PM)

Remember that the Uk, as it is generally known came out of scandinavia.  As did the french and russians.  Sometimes, allowing the world to work as it will is a leaders path.




Termyn8or -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:32:32 PM)

Possibly the cold war, unfortunately for "us" has taught Russia a few things. Their jets outfly us consistently and their missiles are getting to be formidable. They are not after ICBMs, speed and accuracy are the goal. More bang for the Ruble is the goal.

Up to a certain generation of MIG, they could fly without the computer, that means they can fly after an EMP. Our engineers insisted on integrating the computer in F series jets too early. Good thing nothing happened during those years.

Many of the countries who are not really our allies have formidable weapons, and are really pissed of with our using DU weapons in Iraq, Afganistan and Serbia. This is a war crime but the US's clout keep them from being dragged into the Hague.

Did you know that the US government cut off aid to some countries before invading Iraq ? Know why ? They refused to sign an agreement that would immunize US forces from prosecution in international court for war crimes.

While this thread is not about war crimes, I thought I would mention that.

It is said that Cleopatra was married to gain control of certain very fertile lands, in which good food could be grown for the soldiers. This one I can't prove, but it certainly seems plausible. Express interest and I'll start a thread about it instead of screwing up this one.

I am trying not to go off on tangents, although I see tertiary points that are valid and should be brought up. I do not want to hijack this thread.

T




mnottertail -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:37:56 PM)

It certainly is a hoot that we prosecute others for war crimes and when judgements go against us in world court, ignore........but when the cry and hue becomes too great in our own country......modify our stance even if we have a lame duck president.






NeedToUseYou -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:42:49 PM)

You can hijack, it's fine. I'm sure people will still add any examples they think of. 




Alumbrado -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 9:49:58 PM)

I would mention Switzerland's origins, but I hear there are still a few separatists running around in some of the cantons.




juliaoceania -> RE: Question to those versed in history. (7/20/2006 10:01:34 PM)

The thing is that this wall that they are building is known as a "negative" peace...meaning it will isolate them from one another and it will not be a lasting peace. No wall has ever kept people apart completely, no wall has ever held a peace. The wall keeps people from forming a positive peace, which means fostering friendships and cooperation for a lasting peace.. isolation builds ignorance, ignorance fosters fear, fear makes people do things they shouldn't so




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