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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 9:15:48 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

All of the facts of existence are right before u



No they are not before us...we do not even know what the vast majority of the universe is made of...we may very well NOT exist in the way our minds perceive. There are NO absolutes in science until we understand more about the universe. Right now anything is possible.

Just think of all the scientific, so called standards, that over the year have be proven false... we really know next to nothing about our universe let alone its origins.

Butch

Actually, spectroscopic examination of light gathered from distant galaxies provides us with evidence that there are no elements elsewhere in the universe that are not found on earth. Given our knowledge of how these elements interact with each other and the sort of bonds between them we have no basis to anticipate any different kinds of physical structures elsewhere than on earth.

Furthermore, given that the universe seems to be a continuous expanding "closed system" originating some 14 billion years ago there should be no reason to expect that some foreign structure was interjected into the system during that time. Yes, you can say that given the history of revolutionary paradigms in science we may have a different understanding of the universe in the future. But you have no license other than science fantasy to say that new information will be so startlingly different from what we now know. It would be wise to remember that Kepler and Copernicus began with Ptolemy's model of heavenly rotations and Einstein began wit Maxwell's mathematics of electromagnetism. You are not at liberty to imagine that the universe is inside a large teapot without existing foundation.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 9:50:04 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Hiyas Teak!

quote:

I have often wondered why it is that humans are so averse to accepting that there are unanswerable questions. Are we so conditioned to binary A/non-A answers that we decline to accept that many things are simply inexplicable within our current range of knowledge, and most likely will remain so irrespective of advances in knowledge?
We could get into a tiresome discussion about human psychology and the need for certainty in this most short and uncertain tenure on earth, but I'd rather not. There obviously appear to be unanswerable questions. The infiniteness or finiteness of being would seem to fall into that category.

quote:

Any explanation that purports to establish something that precedes a singularity must be speculative.

The singularity itself may be speculative since we are not able to see back past the cosmic microwave background radiation, which some date at about 300,000 years (I think) after the alleged big bang. There is speculation of a Multiverse in which our universe is but one of many. But for those who are interested that does not solve the 'first cause' dilemma imo.

quote:

"Does the possible existence of anything that precedes a singularity have any relevance to humans living in today's world?'
I think it gives succor to Creationists.

quote:

If one's primary concern is the establishment of a viable system of ethics, the question might then become: 'Do we need a pre-singularity causal factor or phenomenon to create a viable system of ethics?' For mine, the answer to that question is a clear negative - it is possible create a viable ethical system using any of a potentially infinite number of initial premises.
Agreed.

quote:

then many of the questions arising in discussions of this type can be seen as attempts to come to terms with a very human concept of power rather than attempts to explain phenomena that may be inexplicable.
Quite probably that is why Galileo was prohibited by the Church from defending the Copernican model. So, yeah, no different today.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 10:09:29 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I am compelled to refer to my own subjective being because neither you nor I have ever experienced the inner subjective being of any other physical construction.

Actually, given the context of a speculative hypothesis that some degree of awareness might inhere in matter all the way down, the notion that such awareness would be anything at all like your experience is the first thing you should discount. Your experience doesn't even track with the experiential world of a human infant.

Exactly! The fact that neither of us can use our own subjective experience and that you have not posed a testable statement emphasizes the vacuity of your speculative hypothesis.

Firstly, it isn't my hypothesis. My only comment was that I don't find it unreasonable. Secondly, it isn't at all clear why a lack of testability should render a hypothesis vacuous. The hypothesis that you are conscious isn't testable either, and given how often you contradict yourself it might even be considered questionable, but neither of us would consider the claim vacuous.

K.


Ah, I was wondering how long before you would take to personal attack. Seems a tell tale sign of your growing uncertainty in your question.

You say it is not your hypothesis; you only say you think it not unreasonable. Then you lay on the condition that consciousness might not be required. It is unreasonable because it has no foundation in human knowledge. It is only fantasy like the walking dead. You make yourself the insignificant hero of a null hypothesis.

If you see no reason why the negative cannot be true you make yourself a champion of the negative. Silly shit but a fun exercise.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 10:27:45 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If you see no reason why the negative cannot be true you make yourself a champion of the negative. Silly shit but a fun exercise.

While it is generally considered impossible to prove a negative, that doesn't mean that a negative can't be true. I can think of one right now. See if you can guess what it is.

K.


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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 12:06:49 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Vince....you are only talking about 4 percent of the universe... the other 96 percent we have no idea what it is...so if you don't know...and I don't know and no one else knows... then why could it not be anything... Then while you are thinking of that maybe you can tell me where your closed system came from and how it originated... and what was before it was originated....and what is beyond the closed border.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/12/2016 12:07:27 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 3:05:08 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If you see no reason why the negative cannot be true you make yourself a champion of the negative. Silly shit but a fun exercise.

While it is generally considered impossible to prove a negative, that doesn't mean that a negative can't be true. I can think of one right now. See if you can guess what it is.

K.


Well that certainly opens your mind up to any fantasy doesn't it? If you make a positive or negative statement ungrounded in any human knowledge and then beg off having it subjected to testing and evidence you are not proposing an hypothesis, you are just playing games and making shit up. It is just a cowardly exercise on your part to propose something (albeit slyly in the form of a question so you can escape responsibility for the thought) and then fend off any suggestions of testing and evidence.

I refer also to your earlier faux proposition that you don't see why awareness requires consciousness. Again cowardly syntax. If that is the level of your intellectual discourse you might just as well sit in your bath tub and play with your rubber duckys or some other fantasy toys for the little you have to contribute to our knowledge endeavors.

You started with a topic of interesting possibilities but now you have slid into inanities as you often do, so replying further is just a waste of time. Adieu!

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 3:19:44 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Well that certainly opens your mind up to any fantasy doesn't it? If you make a positive or negative statement ungrounded in any human knowledge and then beg off having it subjected to testing and evidence you are not proposing an hypothesis, you are just playing games and making shit up. It is just a cowardly exercise on your part to propose something (albeit slyly in the form of a question so you can escape responsibility for the thought) and then fend off any suggestions of testing and evidence.

So now you're a mind reader? Some things can't be tested, yet we all accept them; the fact that we are conscious, for example. By your logic it is just playing games, making shit up, and cowardly in the bargain, to consider that a reasonable proposition. But then, since you seem to judge everything in terms of your own experience, perhaps it's not true of everyone after all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

replying further is just a waste of time. Adieu!

Ooooooo, French! That's sooooo très kewl. Seeya.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/12/2016 3:43:50 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 3:43:53 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince....you are only talking about 4 percent of the universe... the other 96 percent we have no idea what it is...so if you don't know...and I don't know and no one else knows... then why could it not be anything... Then while you are thinking of that maybe you can tell me where your closed system came from and how it originated... and what was before it was originated....and what is beyond the closed border.

Butch

Okay, one thing at a time, Butch. As to where it came from, I gave you a list of four hypotheticals early in this thread. I don't wish to repeat them here except to say they all fail before the ontological "first cause" fallacy except the one that holds the possibility that matter/energy are eternal.

As to the alleged 95% of dark matter/energy. Where is your skepticism? Their existence are only propositions that have yet to be affirmed. They are possible explanations for cosmic phenomena we have detected but cannot otherwise explain. Your certainty is unwarranted.

We know that large mass cause space to curve (Einstein's Law of General Relativity) As a result galaxies can act as cosmic lenses to allow us to detect light coming from behind them. The source of the light may be hidden behind the galaxy but its light will bend around and we can actually see maybe four images of the hidden light source.

I don't know how it is done but astrophysicists have a way of measuring the mass of visible galaxies. Mass = quantity of matter.

It turns out that some galaxy clusters have a greater light bending effect than their measured mass would predict.

How to explain that? There must be matter (mass) that we cannot see. Hence "dark matter." A logical guess. But not yet identified.

This is not new. Neutrinos are a form of subatomic matter that are difficult to detect. When the astrodudes finally identify the nature of dark matter I think they will be more congratulatory of their achievement than astonished at the nature of the particles. Just my guess. Similar to the Higgs Boson.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Gravity is a weak negative energy. The universe is expanding rapidly. There must be a positive energy of which we are unaware pushing galaxies outward. Thus, dark energy. Astrodudes have not yet identified it. At the moment it is a proposed answer to why the universe is propelling outward. Maybe it is god on roller skates. Or maybe there is a different explanation altogether. Right now it is just a possible answer to a puzzling observation.

I hope that gives you something to chew on, Butch. If you come up with any good answers let me know.

vince

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 3:47:48 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		K

quote:

So now you're a mind reader? Some things can't be tested, yet we all accept them; the fact that we are conscious, for example. By your logic, it is just playing games, making shit up, and cowardly in the bargain, to consider that a reasonable proposition. But then, since you seem to judge everything in terms of your own experience, perhaps it's not true of everyone after all.

Oh bullshit we can't test consciousness. We have fMRIs of the different stages of sleep. We have EEGs and fMRIs of levels of consciousness. FFS! Stop embarrassing yourself.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/12/2016 3:49:58 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 3:52:39 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		and, as a corrolary test, we can use the sears model bob vila racheting pliers with the synergistic gripping action on your nuts, that one is pretty definitive.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/12/2016 3:56:48 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

K

quote:

So now you're a mind reader? Some things can't be tested, yet we all accept them; the fact that we are conscious, for example. By your logic, it is just playing games, making shit up, and cowardly in the bargain, to consider that a reasonable proposition. But then, since you seem to judge everything in terms of your own experience, perhaps it's not true of everyone after all.

Oh bullshit we can't test consciousness. We have fMRIs of the different stages of sleep. We have EEGs and fMRIs of levels of consciousness. FFS! Stop embarrassing yourself.

Is that you, Vincent? I thought you said adieu...

Well on second thought, yes it must be you. Contradicting yourself is your trademark.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 7:29:05 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and, as a corrolary test, we can use the sears model bob vila racheting pliers with the synergistic gripping action on your nuts, that one is pretty definitive.

You might gift that to the OP; he is confused about being conscious.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 7:32:39 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

K

quote:

So now you're a mind reader? Some things can't be tested, yet we all accept them; the fact that we are conscious, for example. By your logic, it is just playing games, making shit up, and cowardly in the bargain, to consider that a reasonable proposition. But then, since you seem to judge everything in terms of your own experience, perhaps it's not true of everyone after all.

Oh bullshit we can't test consciousness. We have fMRIs of the different stages of sleep. We have EEGs and fMRIs of levels of consciousness. FFS! Stop embarrassing yourself.

Is that you, Vincent? I thought you said adieu...

Well on second thought, yes it must be you. Contradicting yourself is your trademark.

K.


Contradiction is the sign of an open mind examining and testing new information. No shame in that. Better than having a mind mired in the muck of self-created fantasies.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 11:32:58 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Contradiction is the sign of an open mind examining and testing new information. No shame in that. Better than having a mind mired in the muck of self-created fantasies.

I didn't originate the idea (I've told you that before, but you can continue trying to pin it on me if that turns you on) and your dismissive ridicule seems to me to reflect less of an open mind than it pleases you to credit yourself with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

replying further is just a waste of time. Adieu!

Bye again.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/13/2016 11:36:39 AM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 12:00:54 PM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		Ok let's get back to the OP. Let's try to keep religion...out of what ? Out of life ? OK Out of debate ? OK. Out of any discussion of science ? OK.

How about we get down to it ? Keep faith out of it for faith in religion is of no help at all and in fact...a deal breaker for all rational discussion. What I would like to think inspired this OP, is the idea that keeping religion and religious faith 'out of it' means [it] is a conversation stopper and to invoke faith or religious faith makes rational discussion or debate...superfluous. (2. unnecessary or needless)

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 2:00:39 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

Actually, spectroscopic examination of light gathered from distant galaxies provides us with evidence that there are no elements elsewhere in the universe that are not found on earth.

I believe he was referring to dark matter and dark energy, about which we know nothing other than it ought to exist, and yet we can't find either. And on the micro level, we cannot explain the whole "spooky action at a distance" thing, it really is not possible, and yet there it is.
Even the science you extol can't figure a whole lot of shit out, so why do you insist that the only form of sentience or self-awareness must be basically the same as us? What about crystals, they grow and multiply, one of the hallmarks of life. Are they alive?

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 6:56:24 PM   
FieryOpal


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Status: offline 		Serious question. What exactly do you mean by "elements" and 'elements interact"? Meteors have left trace amounts of hitherto foreign elemental crystals in the form of Moissanite and Moldavite, for example. Moissanite is commercially lab-created as a diamond simulant but was originally of extraterrestrial origin and grown from genuine seed crystals.
Then there are some who believe meteoric impacts have cosmically seeded our world or been a catalyst for intergalactic pollination of organic-based matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Actually, spectroscopic examination of light gathered from distant galaxies provides us with evidence that there are no elements elsewhere in the universe that are not found on earth. Given our knowledge of how these elements interact with each other and the sort of bonds between them we have no basis to anticipate any different kinds of physical structures elsewhere than on earth.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
I believe he was referring to dark matter and dark energy, about which we know nothing other than it ought to exist, and yet we can't find either. And on the micro level, we cannot explain the whole "spooky action at a distance" thing, it really is not possible, and yet there it is.
Even the science you extol can't figure a whole lot of shit out, so why do you insist that the only form of sentience or self-awareness must be basically the same as us? What about crystals, they grow and multiply, one of the hallmarks of life. Are they alive?

Do "physical structure" and "foreign structure" relate to elemental substance as a construct, or as phenomena? Because, without knowing what lies at the other end of black holes or wormholes, and without being able to pass through such portals, other dimensional realities remain undiscovered and unquantifiable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Furthermore, given that the universe seems to be a continuous expanding "closed system" originating some 14 billion years ago there should be no reason to expect that some foreign structure was interjected into the system during that time. Yes, you can say that given the history of revolutionary paradigms in science we may have a different understanding of the universe in the future. But you have no license other than science fantasy to say that new information will be so startlingly different from what we now know. It would be wise to remember that Kepler and Copernicus began with Ptolemy's model of heavenly rotations and Einstein began wit Maxwell's mathematics of electromagnetism. You are not at liberty to imagine that the universe is inside a large teapot without existing foundation.


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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 8:04:12 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

four hypotheticals


Vince you are defending your position on supposed facts... then use unproven hypotheticals as proof...lol... can you not see the hypocrisy here? You are using four... I am saying because of the unknowable it could be many more...even an infinite number of ...hypotheticals.

quote:

holds the possibility that matter/energy are eternal.


Then out of nowhere you use...eternal as a possibility... Vince is not eternal no less an unbelievable possibility than ...GOD... or any other fantastic explanation we can think of?

The rest of your post provides no explanation to the miracle of us and all around us... it is just reporting on what is observed.

Science has no proven answers to the mystery of creation and your guess or mine is just as valid as any other.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/13/2016 8:09:00 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 8:36:14 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Actually, spectroscopic examination of light gathered from distant galaxies provides us with evidence that there are no elements elsewhere in the universe that are not found on earth.

I believe he was referring to dark matter and dark energy, about which we know nothing other than it ought to exist, and yet we can't find either. And on the micro level, we cannot explain the whole "spooky action at a distance" thing, it really is not possible, and yet there it is.
Even the science you extol can't figure a whole lot of shit out, so why do you insist that the only form of sentience or self-awareness must be basically the same as us? What about crystals, they grow and multiply, one of the hallmarks of life. Are they alive?

I answered Butch's questions in some detail in post #228. If you have any questions do ask, not that I am the be all, end all expert. I am just a student on the subject. Here is an article published today speculating on the nature of dark matter

Recent experiments reported just last year confirmed the reality of quantum entanglement. Seems like you are in a frantic rush to say "never." And as for Einstein being wrong, that is the beauty of science: it is a process of human knowing that proceeds without regard to authority. I would not be surprised if chinks were not found in his Theory of General Relativity. That's what science is all about ~ pushing the envelope of "established wisdom." That is the essence of science; it is not static. Can you suggest a more successful enterprise of human learning, a more valid way of understanding nature? Do tell.

Crystals grow along permissible angles allowed by the nature of their bonds and by the accumulation of identical chemicals. A crystal of copper sulfate for example will grow as long as there are copper ions and sulfate ions in the solution, an accumulation of like materials. They do not reproduce progeny the way living things do. No, they are not alive.

No, I never said self awareness had to be like us. I believe I said self-awareness requires consciousness. Seems to me that is true by definition. Do you know another method in which self awareness may occur? Please do not tell me that simply it is possible, or that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Orbiting tea pots are possible under that umbrella even though we have no evidence of them. If you have no link to reality, to real knowns, you are stepping into fantasy, and that is unacceptable. Let's keep fantasy out of it

Happy to read your reply.

vince

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Profile   Post #: 239
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 9:20:56 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Opal!

quote:

Serious question. What exactly do you mean by "elements" and 'elements interact"?

There are 90 chemical elements that occur everywhere in nature. See your handy Periodic Table of Elements. The lightest of these building blocks of substance is hydrogen. The heaviest is uranium. Two that are lighter than uranium and all that are heavier than uranium result from nuclear reactions and are short-lived. Spectroscopic studies of gathered cosmic light and radiation have yet to show us the existence of any other chemical elements. Why is this important? All materials, living or inanimate are made from various combinations of these elements. Living matter is composed of molecules commonly containing carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur with many other elements in lesser quantity like iron, zinc, phosphorus, potassium, whatever. There are no known organic molecules or inorganic salts (minerals) made from any unknown elements.

quote:

Then there are some who believe meteoric impacts have cosmically seeded our world or been a catalyst for intergalactic pollination of organic-based matter.
I read an article only a few days ago that claimed simple organic molecules have been identified in the tail of a comet. So, yeah, inter terrestrial seeding is possible. But other experiments have been performed forming simple organic molecules from ammonia and carbon dioxide I think. Check out Miller and Urey's work in Canada back in the 1950s.

quote:

Do "physical structure" and "foreign structure" relate to elemental substance as a construct, or as phenomena? Because, without knowing what lies at the other end of black holes or wormholes, and without being able to pass through such portals, other dimensional realities remain undiscovered and unquantifiable.
I felt the need to resort to those tortured words because of the OP's nit picking. I meant physical stuff as we know it. I referred to phenomena not constructs.

Wormholes are interesting constructs and possibilities but as far as I know they have not yet been demonstrated as a reality. Let me know if you have contrary information.

I do not know of any possibility of passing though a black hole. Not yet.

Other dimensions that may exist are derived from string theory and would be very much micro and perhaps have no effect on the macro universe. I really don't see how they might but maybe you do.

Vince


< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/13/2016 9:45:23 PM >

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