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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/13/2016 9:42:17 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

four hypotheticals


Vince you are defending your position on supposed facts... then use unproven hypotheticals as proof...lol... can you not see the hypocrisy here? You are using four... I am saying because of the unknowable it could be many more...even an infinite number of ...hypotheticals.

quote:

holds the possibility that matter/energy are eternal.


Then out of nowhere you use...eternal as a possibility... Vince is not eternal no less an unbelievable possibility than ...GOD... or any other fantastic explanation we can think of?

The rest of your post provides no explanation to the miracle of us and all around us... it is just reporting on what is observed.

Science has no proven answers to the mystery of creation and your guess or mine is just as valid as any other.

Butch

Don't fuck with me, Butch. Don't change the meaning of what I have written. Hypotheticals are not scientific statements. Don't put new words into my mouth. That is intellectual dishonesty at the least.

This is what I wrote in #213

quote:

Do we know how matter came into existence? No we don't. Does it matter? No it doesn't. Why not? The coming into existence of matter is not a scientific question. Why not? Because it is not a testable or experimental question. Not at the moment. We leave that to the religionists. And of course there is the possibility that matter/energy was never created; it just always was. Neither is that a scientific question at this time.

I don't know how I can make myself any more clear.

If it gives you comfort that science has not proven or disproven your god, then good for you. I am not interested in your faith. Apparently, your faith is so weak you need to find affirmation by arguing your own version of science; it is not the science I have been trained in.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/13/2016 9:43:29 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 5:23:20 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

No, I never said self awareness had to be like us. I believe I said self-awareness requires consciousness. Seems to me that is true by definition. Do you know another method in which self awareness may occur?

I think the issue turns on our definition of consciousness. Most current definitions require an awareness of the world around you. Unless we view consciousness as a continuum, a matter of degree, I do not think that a pure awareness of being would quite qualify under that definition. But if some degree of awareness inheres in matter all the way down, then our ideas about consciousness will need to be broadened and the idea of panpsychism has attracted a small but growing number of serious scientists. Nagel put it clearly in 1979: "There are no truly emergent properties of complex systems. All properties of complex systems that are not relations between it and something else derive from the properties of its constituents and their effects on each other when so combined."

K.


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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 7:02:08 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

No, I never said self awareness had to be like us.

Yes you did, you insisted a brain was required.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 8:07:10 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Vince I am not putting words in your mouth...you said them not me.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/14/2016 8:15:00 AM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 8:14:33 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

I don't know how I can make myself any more clear.


Yes you are making yourself clear... have ave no idea ... It is THE most important question to science... how can you say how the universe came about does not matter? All science must have a foundation before anything of certainty can be ruled in or out.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 9:15:53 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

how can you say how the universe came about does not matter?

Oh that's easy, because it really doesn't matter.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 10:38:38 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I think the answer is the very unromantic one of evolution. Those assemblages of insentient materials have been added to or cast off from or modified based on what has worked vs. what hasn't worked. The more those materials are refined or made to work together and rely on one another, the more complex a machine those materials make up. Why would our own self awareness be any different? Are emotions learned responses? When we see an animal protecting their young, we attribute it to their animal instinct, but for us, there's emotion involved. I don't think there's a difference - I think it's all the same, and it's all just a matter of where we are on the evolutionary spectrum.

This, on a total side note, is why I still have trouble with the fact that I eat meat now. I really don't see any other sentient being as being all that different than I. I'm regularly accused of anthropomorphism, but I disagree. The bodies and minds of other animals may not have evolved to the extent that ours has, but at what point do we draw that line and say "Yes, now this is a being who has a sense of self?" How would we even know? And why do we think they don't just because it's not recognizable to us?

I'm halfway hesitating to post this because I really don't know what I'm talking about. But, fuck it. :)






You'd find this an interesting read then: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130924-how-belief-in-free-will-shapes-us

In short, the article seems to imply that we're tricked into perceiving ourselves to have free will/consciousness because when we believe that this is the case, we work better together with others. If that's the case, there is a definite evolutionary benefit into us perceiving our own deterministic instincts as choices, and thus tricking us into believing that we have a type of consciousness that's different from other things/animals, when in reality we're merely responding to stimuli with pre-programmed behavior, just as much as they are.

However, considering that the studies also indicate that believe in free will in and of itself influences behavior, it also begs the question whether it really matters if we're truly conscious or not, because merely believing that we are seems to put us in a position where we'll have the perception of having more desirable/more divers options available to us.

It's one of those chicken and egg things: if you believe that you're conscious, does the having of that believe in and of itself create the consciousness, or is it the having of consciousness that creates the believe of consciousness?

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 1:47:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

There are no truly emergent properties of complex systems. All properties of complex systems that are not relations between it and something else derive from the properties of its constituents and their effects on each other when so combined."

Please explain how: "derive from the properties of its constituents and their effects on each other when so combined." is different from "emergent".

vince

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 2:00:43 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I don't know how I can make myself any more clear.


Yes you are making yourself clear... have ave no idea ... It is THE most important question to science... how can you say how the universe came about does not matter? All science must have a foundation before anything of certainty can be ruled in or out.

Butch


Not true. All we need know, is that the universe did come about...we do exist. 'I think...therefore I am.'

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 2:30:19 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I don't know how I can make myself any more clear.


Yes you are making yourself clear... have ave no idea ... It is THE most important question to science... how can you say how the universe came about does not matter? All science must have a foundation before anything of certainty can be ruled in or out.
b
Butch


Absolutely absurd, Butch. We needed to know how the universe came about to program computers? to send a manned mission to the moon?

Science is not an endeavor obsessed with certainty. The task of science is to develop a model that best fits the known facts or observations and is always contingent upon the possibility that new information will change the model.

The most important question in science? Please! You are terribly misinformed. If you assemble the parts and try to build an automobile do you need to know where the parts came from? Nah!

We can speculate about the origins of the universe but it cannot be a valid question in science until we have ways of testing possible answers (hypotheses) Until then it will remain a philosophical or theological question.

To pause for a moment and go back to two ontological hypotheticals: the relative probabilities of a creator vs. eternal matter/energy. The first fails the "first mover" question; the second does not. Who created the creator? Your answer of course has to be that the spirit creator is eternal. How is that anymore believable that matter/energy is eternal? It is to you only because you think you see matter being destroyed. Buildings crumble, people die, houses burn, and you think that matter/energy is destroyed but it isn't; it is converted from one form to another. Check out the "Law of Conservation of Matter/Energy" E=mc2 Unable to cope with the eternity of matter/energy man resorts to inventing an eternal spirit.


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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 2:33:00 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

No, I never said self awareness had to be like us.

Yes you did, you insisted a brain was required.

I mean cows and horses have brains and they are not "just like us," are they?

But I will stand by the brain thingy until you show me an alternative.

Vince

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 3:03:33 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Vince with every post you unknowingly are agreeing with me... you are right we have no way of knowing...and that very fact means there are infinite possibilities as to our origin and the physics of OUR universe...Some of your gods of science are saying exactly this. Brian Greene hosts a series called The Elegant Universe does a good job of postulating on some of these possibilities. I like the one where he says that if YOU were to walk into a solid brick wall for an eternity there would come a time when you would walk thru the wall without touching it. He also postulates that there is a possibility that our individual thoughts mold a separate reality... otherwise every individual thought and action spins off an alternate universe...one of an infinite number.

Outlandish yes...but no less or more than the possibility of a universe with a universal intelligence....we just do not know enough to say with certainty that any one possibility is valid or not.

I can see you are unable to grasp what i am trying to say and we are becoming boring and repetitive in our posts. So I think it is time to move on.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 4:01:16 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

There are no truly emergent properties of complex systems. All properties of complex systems that are not relations between it and something else derive from the properties of its constituents and their effects on each other when so combined."

Please explain how: "derive from the properties of its constituents and their effects on each other when so combined." is different from "emergent".

What a surprising question from a bright fellow like yourself. You think they mean the same thing? Seriously? What a hoot. Well alright, but next time ask your ESL instructor. In the context in which Nagel is using those terms, an emergent property is something that wasn't there before, something new and often unexpected, whereas a derived property has antecedents in kind. Get it now? You're welcome.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/14/2016 4:02:53 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 4:19:37 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Thank you for the interesting article, UllrsIshtar.

It was interesting but I don't know that this passage from Dr. Crick represents all the options of "free will is an illusion" idea.

quote:

"Science has demonstrated that free will is an illusion”, or "Like everything else in the universe, all human actions follow from prior events and ultimately can be understood in terms of the movement of molecules”.
It is a giant deterministic leap from molecules to human behavior.

Sam Harris proposes a version (maybe the most popular) of illusionary free will. Harris argues that our behaviors are determined by a chain of previous behaviors and experiences (including prenatal experiences) This gets us no where close to the idea that "molecules" shape our behavior.

If you have time . . . . SAM HARRIS

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/14/2016 4:43:21 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 5:01:57 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

There are no truly emergent properties of complex systems. All properties of complex systems that are not relations between it and something else derive from the properties of its constituents and their effects on each other when so combined."

Please explain how: "derive from the properties of its constituents and their effects on each other when so combined." is different from "emergent".

What a surprising question from a bright fellow like yourself. You think they mean the same thing? Seriously? What a hoot. Well alright, but next time ask your ESL instructor. In the context in which Nagel is using those terms, an emergent property is something that wasn't there before, something new and often unexpected, whereas a derived property has antecedents in kind. Get it now? You're welcome.

K.K


Well, aren't you a tricky little fellow? I should take it within context of what Nagel was saying but you fail to supply a citation. You are just being nit picky again. There is nothing in the definitions of emergence that suggests the emerging "thing" does not have antecedents. So, fu*k Mr Nagel.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/14/2016 5:04:27 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 5:09:31 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Brian Greene hosts a series called The Elegant Universe does a good job of postulating on some of these possibilities. I like the one where he says that if YOU were to walk into a solid brick wall for an eternity there would come a time when you would walk thru the wall without touching it

Greene was only illustrating that there are huge spaces within apparently solid matter, that atoms are mostly empty. But unfortunately he ignores the wave functions of particles and the probabilities the waves will converge and always interfere. I wouldn't take his illustration as gospel (oops!)

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 5:21:48 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Ah... he is only world renowned theoretical physicist ...how could I use him as an example...especially when we have you to correct him...

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 257
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 6:14:38 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

I mean cows and horses have brains and they are not "just like us," are they?

Sure they are.
quote:

But I will stand by the brain thingy until you show me an alternative.

I already did, but you pretended I didn't make those posts.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 6:41:50 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

There is nothing in the definitions of emergence that suggests the emerging "thing" does not have antecedents.

Stop being such a dishonest jerk. I didn't say antecedents, period, I said antecedents in kind. The theory that consciousness is an emergent property does not postulate any antecedent awareness in the constituents of the system. It is not a theory of panpsychism. It is purely materialistic, and you know that as well as I do.

K.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/14/2016 7:04:52 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Thank you for the interesting article, UllrsIshtar.

It was interesting but I don't know that this passage from Dr. Crick represents all the options of "free will is an illusion" idea.

quote:

"Science has demonstrated that free will is an illusion”, or "Like everything else in the universe, all human actions follow from prior events and ultimately can be understood in terms of the movement of molecules”.
It is a giant deterministic leap from molecules to human behavior.

Sam Harris proposes a version (maybe the most popular) of illusionary free will. Harris argues that our behaviors are determined by a chain of previous behaviors and experiences (including prenatal experiences) This gets us no where close to the idea that "molecules" shape our behavior.

If you have time . . . . SAM HARRIS


It comes down to the exact same thing.

That 'previous behavior and experiences' which shape our own was determined by more 'previous behavior', right?
Which was in term shaped by behavior for that, all the way down the evolutionary chain, to the first single cell organisms, which in turn were influenced by chemical reactions, which in turn were influenced by molecules, which in turn were influenced by the very first atom moving.

If you ascribe to the theory that we don't have free will, because all our actions and thoughts are direct inevitable responses to stuff that's happened before us, then the fact that I'd be typing this sentence at this exact time was already predictable from the big bang (or however else the universe got set into motion) on.

Whether you then want to argue that it's molecules, or past experiences which shape our current behavior is just a matter of how far down the causal chain you want to go.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 6/14/2016 7:05:41 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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Profile   Post #: 260
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