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Musicmystery -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/17/2016 9:38:58 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kirata
Animism, which predates organized religion, is the belief that there is no separation between the physical and the spiritual, between matter and spirit. But it is important to realize that such a statement would be incomprehensible to an animist.
We are frequently told that man invented gods to explain the processes of nature. But consider, for example, that you have a dog you've named Buster. You will say things like, "Buster didn't like that," or "Buster is full of energy today." When you speak in this way, you aren't talking about the "god" of the dog. Buster is the dog. That's his name. Similarly, giving a name to the sky is not inventing a "god" of the sky. Animism is not a form of theism.
The arc of history has been one of increasing abstraction and with it a growing split between the physical and the spiritual, between matter and spirit, culminating in the present Monotheistic view that the world exists in relation to God purely as an object; separate, created, material. Beliefs may vary in the degree to which they postulate spirit's presence in and ability to act upon the material world, but the fundamental split between matter and spirit remains absolute and inviolate.
Critics of Monotheism commonly attack its spiritual claims, but nobody attacks its conjoined material claim, that matter is nothing but insentient "stuff." Yet the fact remains that Monotheism stands or falls on that claim too, and it seems just as much a long shot.
We cannot explain how or why an assemblage of insentient material could or would have any subjective internal experience at all, let alone a rich emotional life and a sense of self. The idea that consciousness is an emergent quality of sufficiently complex systems begs the question. We have no idea how insentient chemicals could possibly develop a conscious awareness of their existence in the first place.
So starting fresh, without rancor or Bible quotes, what conclusion might a reasonable person suspect upon witnessing these assemblages of insentient materials building great cities and penning sonnets and symphonies? What are your private thoughts?
Ode to Joy
K.
Kirata,
Well, while it doesn't leave religion out of it, two relevant thoughts to share.
First, the "decline" of Islamic science is when it reaches this point, that the separation of spirit and matter become unacceptable. Alas, that also allowed fundamentalism, but the Western tendency to dismiss this philosophy simply repeats our own Descartean dichotomy. Or Platonian if you prefer. They may, instead, have been on to something.
Second, in Buddhist teachings, we are simply consciousness--Buddha doesn't talk about a "soul" (which is a Western invention, the ghost in the machine). He does talk about "mind" a lot (which has a much more complex meaning in his teachings than the English translation to "mind"). It's not how matter connects to consciousness, but rather, that there is no connection, and that we fundamentally misunderstand our nature (fallout of having ego). Understanding again is Enlightenment, Awakening.
I know neither point answers your questions exactly -- but they do seem relevant and related takes on the topic.
For your consideration.
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