RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (Full Version)

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ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/19/2016 7:17:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

to strive to understand where we come from and to find our origins we must know the origins of the universe...

Well, that question would never arise if we weren't conscious, so I think the question resolves to understanding consciousness itself, and it's not at all clear to me why the origin of the Universe would necessarily have any bearing on it.

K.



I'm with Kirata on this one.




kdsub -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/19/2016 7:19:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

to strive to understand where we come from and to find our origins we must know the origins of the universe...

Well, that question would never arise if we weren't conscious, so I think the question resolves to understanding consciousness itself, and it's not at all clear to me why the origin of the Universe would necessarily have any bearing on it.

K.




I do believe that if we knew the origin of the universe and could explain it we would know all the secrets including consciousness and its origin and more importantly... the reason for it... After all, every human that has every drawn a breath at one time or another has asked how and why I am here.

I do believe there is a progression to creation... one step forms and leads inevitably to another and as we step back through this progression answers to our questions will be revealed. I am just not sure that our brains and its capacity for knowledge is strong enough to ever understand this progression of creation. Otherwise these answers may be forever beyond our abilities to process and understand.

Butch





ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/19/2016 7:20:00 PM)

quote:

and watched it multiply – the very definition of being alive.

By that definition crystals are alive.
quote:

The man-made single cell "creature", which is a modified version of one of the simplest bacteria on earth, proves that the technology works.

It does not, however, even begin to explain how life first emerged as it uses an existing life form as it's raw material.




ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/19/2016 7:23:48 PM)

quote:

After all, every human that has every drawn a breath at one time or another has asked how and why I am here.

Oh that's easy




Kirata -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/19/2016 7:29:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Do not fear kinkroids...life has been created.

Dr Craig Venter, a multi-millionaire pioneer in genetics, and his team have managed to make a completely new "synthetic" life form from a mix of chemicals.

They manufactured a new chromosome from artificial DNA in a test tube, then transferred it into an empty cell and watched it multiply – the very definition of being alive.

The man-made single cell "creature", which is a modified version of one of the simplest bacteria on earth, proves that the technology works.

HERE


Yeah, no. Venter mapped an existing genome, created a copy with some signatures added to identify it, and then replaced the existing genome of a living cell with his lab created copy. A nice technological feat, but not creating life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I religiously keep faith in science.

I don't what you're keeping faith in, but if your post is any example it isn't science.

K.




kdsub -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/19/2016 7:31:33 PM)

I must admit i would not mind exploring with you the obvious answer you are contemplating...[:D]




FieryOpal -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/19/2016 10:53:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

to strive to understand where we come from and to find our origins we must know the origins of the universe...

Well, that question would never arise if we weren't conscious, so I think the question resolves to understanding consciousness itself, and it's not at all clear to me why the origin of the Universe would necessarily have any bearing on it.
K.


I do believe that if we knew the origin of the universe and could explain it we would know all the secrets including consciousness and its origin and more importantly... the reason for it... After all, every human that has every drawn a breath at one time or another has asked how and why I am here.

I do believe there is a progression to creation... one step forms and leads inevitably to another and as we step back through this progression answers to our questions will be revealed. I am just not sure that our brains and its capacity for knowledge is strong enough to ever understand this progression of creation. Otherwise these answers may be forever beyond our abilities to process and understand.

Butch

In a sense, Butch, you have hit upon the basic conundrum of how does a sentient being existing within a linear-sequential reality of beginnings and endings, contemplate timelessness and eternity....

Our limited intelligence can conceive of the eternal, as stretching back & forth in time, or with inward/outward pulsations per evidentiary traces left behind, or those we can project forward in time.

In this world of duality that we are contained within, a prime example of our dualistic perceptions is with electromagnetism and gravity: Centrifugal force (expansion) radiating outward; and Centripetal force (compression) intensifying inward.

In other words, without the dynamics of dualism - usually represented as opposites, but which more accurately operate as complementary pairs/dyads - our thought processes have no frame of reference point to define ourselves and the universe as we strive to comprehend it, not as long as we remain embodied beings subject to the physical laws of mortality.




MrRodgers -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 3:12:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

and watched it multiply – the very definition of being alive.

By that definition crystals are alive.
quote:

The man-made single cell "creature", which is a modified version of one of the simplest bacteria on earth, proves that the technology works.

It does not, however, even begin to explain how life first emerged as it uses an existing life form as it's raw material.

Not true at all. Did you read it ? "We've now been able to take our synthetic chromosome and transplant it into a recipient cell - a different organism.

"As soon as this new software goes into the cell, the cell reads [it] and converts into the species specified in that genetic code."
The new bacteria replicated over a billion times, producing copies that contained and were controlled by the constructed, synthetic DNA.


Whereas with crystal: It’s (Almost) Alive! Scientists Create a Near-Living Crystal

The particles aren’t truly alive — but they’re not far off, either. Exposed to light and fed by chemicals, they form crystals that move, break apart and form again.

“There is a blurry frontier between active and alive,” said biophysicist Jérémie Palacci of New York University. “That is exactly the kind of question that such works raise.”


Crystals stop when light is removed, the cellular divide of bacteria...does not as long as it is fed food.

Plus, “Here we show that with a simple, synthetic active system, we can reproduce some features of living systems,” Palacci said. “I do not think this makes our systems alive, but it stresses the fact that the limit between the two is somewhat arbitrary.”

HERE




MrRodgers -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 3:16:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Do not fear kinkroids...life has been created.

Dr Craig Venter, a multi-millionaire pioneer in genetics, and his team have managed to make a completely new "synthetic" life form from a mix of chemicals.

They manufactured a new chromosome from artificial DNA in a test tube, then transferred it into an empty cell and watched it multiply – the very definition of being alive.

The man-made single cell "creature", which is a modified version of one of the simplest bacteria on earth, proves that the technology works.

HERE


Yeah, no. Venter mapped an existing genome, created a copy with some signatures added to identify it, and then replaced the existing genome of a living cell with his lab created copy. A nice technological feat, but not creating life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I religiously keep faith in science.

I don't what you're keeping faith in, but if your post is any example it isn't science.

K.


Well not according to the link and the last is obvious sarcasm. The link is truly science.




Kirata -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 8:25:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Yeah, no. Venter mapped an existing genome, created a copy with some signatures added to identify it, and then replaced the existing genome of a living cell with his lab created copy. A nice technological feat, but not creating life.

Well not according to the link

From your link:

First they sequenced the genetic code of Mycoplasma genitalium, the world's smallest bacteria that lives in cattle and goats, and stored the information on a computer. Then they used the computer code to artificially reproduce the DNA in the laboratory, slightly modifying it with a "watermark" so it was distinguishable from the original natural one. Finally they developed a technique of stripping bacteria cells of all original DNA and substituting it with the new artificial code.

K.




ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 8:47:40 AM)

quote:

and transplant it into a recipient cell

Bingo, pre-existing life form, so yeah I was right.




vincentML -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 9:51:14 AM)

Kirata . . .

quote:

The evolutionary emergence of consciousness springs from the self-organizing organic structures... The emergence is due to the structures not to the materials
Given that a scientific explanation is one supported by the process described in the quote block, what replicated experiments have scientifically established that "consciousness springs from self-organizing structures" and is specifically "due to the structures"?


Consciousness

Evolution of consciousness: Phylogeny, ontogeny, and emergence from general anesthesia

Abiogenesis

In 2001, Louis Allamandola demonstrated that organic material can be synthesized in deep space using a "Chill vacuum chamber"--a lot of biomolecules: nitriles, ethers, alcohols, ring-like hydrocarbons, and others.[8] [9]

In a complementary experiment, Jennifer Blank at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory discovered that: "Through subsequent chemical analysis, the team discovered that the initial amino acids in the mixture had linked together to form peptides, from which proteins can be formed." [10]

In 2010, Craig Venter and his colleagues inserted a wholly artificial chromosome into a bacterial cell and created the first artificial life form (a.k.a. "dial-a-genome").[11] While it may seem like artificial abiogenesis, it nevertheless involved some major cheating: the artificial chromosome was constructed using gene sequences of an existing organism.

In 2011, Lee Cronin at the University of Glasgow is trying to start an evolutionary process in polyoxometalate-based "cells".[12]

In 2014, a group of researchers managed to produce all four components of RNA by simulating an asteroid impact in primordial conditions.[13]

A 2015 paper showed that the chemical precursors for the synthesis of amino acids, lipids and nucleotides, which would be required in a primitive cell, could have all arisen simultaneously through reactions driven by ultraviolet light. [14]

In 2015, the lander Philae discovered 16 organic compounds, four of which have never been detected on a comet before, on the comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko. Many of the organic compounds are important building blocks of life.[15] [16][17]

In 2015, NASA scientists studying the origin of life managed to reproduce uracil, cytosine, and thymine from an ice sample containing pyrimidine under conditions found in space. [18][19]

A 2016 study showed that the building blocks of life can be replicated in deep sea vents. These experiments have for the first time demonstrated that RNA molecules can form in alkaline hydrothermal chimneys.[20] [21]


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

I shall leave to you the chore to confirm whether replicative experiments were done, or what arose from peer reviews. [:D]

Vince




vincentML -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 9:57:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

You can't get from here to there if here is nowhere.

But everywhere is somewhere.

Not if it is a hypothetical.




vincentML -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 10:03:06 AM)

TDC!
quote:


and watched it multiply – the very definition of being alive.

By that definition crystals are alive.


Different forms of multiplying as you well should know: 1. multiplying by absorbing similar salts from the solution, 2. multiplying by producing progeny.




ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 10:39:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

You can't get from here to there if here is nowhere.

But everywhere is somewhere.

Not if it is a hypothetical.

Incorrect




Kirata -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 11:06:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I shall leave to you the chore to confirm whether replicative experiments were done, or what arose from peer reviews. [:D]

And I shall leave it to you to learn English.

K.





vincentML -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 12:39:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I shall leave to you the chore to confirm whether replicative experiments were done, or what arose from peer reviews. [:D]

And I shall leave it to you to learn English.

K.


Did you think yours a clever remark? Sorry, failed. Very sophomoric of you.




vincentML -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 12:40:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

You can't get from here to there if here is nowhere.

But everywhere is somewhere.

Not if it is a hypothetical.

Incorrect

By what logic?




ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 12:57:07 PM)

By all forms of logic.




vincentML -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (6/20/2016 5:32:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

By all forms of logic.

We learned recently that the universe is expanding faster than we realized. So,
here is not there anymore; it is somewhere else.




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