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Real0ne -> RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... (5/30/2016 11:09:13 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kirata
Animism, which predates organized religion, is the belief that there is no separation between the physical and the spiritual, between matter and spirit. But it is important to realize that such a statement would be incomprehensible to an animist.
We are frequently told that man invented gods to explain the processes of nature. But consider, for example, that you have a dog you've named Buster. You will say things like, "Buster didn't like that," or "Buster is full of energy today." When you speak in this way, you aren't talking about the "god" of the dog. Buster is the dog. That's his name. Similarly, giving a name to the sky is not inventing a "god" of the sky. Animism is not a form of theism.
The arc of history has been one of increasing abstraction and with it a growing split between the physical and the spiritual, between matter and spirit, culminating in the present Monotheistic view that the world exists in relation to God purely as an object; separate, created, material. Beliefs may vary in the degree to which they postulate spirit's presence in and ability to act upon the material world, but the fundamental split between matter and spirit remains absolute and inviolate.
Critics of Monotheism commonly attack its spiritual claims, but nobody attacks its conjoined material claim, that matter is nothing but insentient "stuff." Yet the fact remains that Monotheism stands or falls on that claim too, and it seems just as much a long shot.
We cannot explain how or why an assemblage of insentient material could or would have any subjective internal experience at all, let alone a rich emotional life and a sense of self. The idea that consciousness is an emergent quality of sufficiently complex systems begs the question. We have no idea how insentient chemicals could possibly develop a conscious awareness of their existence in the first place.
So starting fresh, without rancor or Bible quotes, what conclusion might a reasonable person suspect upon witnessing these assemblages of insentient materials building great cities and penning sonnets and symphonies? What are your private thoughts?
Ode to Joy
K.
Hi K . . .
I have issues with some of your basic assumptions.
In Christian belief the spirit became incarnate in Jesus and the human corpus is inhabited by soul. Taking communion for some Christians is the act of swallowing the body, blood, and spirit of the Christ through transubstantiation. Body and spirit are one.
I don't know of anyone who claims that insentient chemicals developed a consciousness and awareness. Please elaborate that assumption so we have a clearer notion of what you mean, or at least be more specific.
The idea that consciousness is an emergent quality from assemblages of complex systems does not at all beg the question. It answers the question. If we remove the battery from an automobile it will fail to start no matter how many times you press the starter or turn the key. The potential energy emerges as kinetic energy through the processes of complex systems. If we remove the brain from a living dog there is no evidence that it will continue to have consciousness, unless of course you believe that the dog matter contains conscious spirit. That brings us back to a more contemporary and sophisticated form of animism.
Those are my thoughts. I believe your assumptions are flawed.
nice,
I concur
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