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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/31/2016 10:32:24 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Without being sentient, there is no awareness of existence.

How do you know?


By definition???

"Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.[1] Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience). In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as "qualia").

However,

"In Eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires respect and care. The concept is central to the philosophy of animal rights, because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, and thus is held to confer certain rights."

wiki


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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/31/2016 11:04:14 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		We are leaving religion out of it remember...but if you read my first post here and here you can get an idea on where i stand.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/31/2016 11:16:16 AM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/31/2016 6:34:35 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We are leaving religion out of it remember...but if you read my first post here and here you can get an idea on where i stand.

Butch

Well, Butch, you were the one who introduced magic to this discussion. I don't know of a religion that is not based on magic or some magical event. Perhaps you do.

Aside from that let me clarify that Abiogenesis and Evolution are two different non-magical disciplines.

Abiogenesis studies the non-miraculous appearance and construction of prebiotic materials on earth, speculating how these materials may have become self-replicating, and asks how these prebiotic materials became life forms.

Evolution takes it from there to search out how living things became more complex structures capable of many different functions.

The OP suggests that physical materials have degrees of internal subjectivity. I don't know of any discipline that studies that.

Some astrophysicists have suggested that the building blocks of life came from outer space. They don't mean aliens. They mean simple organic precursor molecules. In that respect, here's an article that speaks to that idea.

"The multitude of organic molecules already identified by ROSINA, now joined by the exciting confirmation of fundamental ingredients like glycine and phosphorus, confirms our idea that comets have the potential to deliver key molecules for prebiotic chemistry," says Matt Taylor, Rosetta project scientist of the European Space Agency ESA. "Demonstrating that comets are reservoirs of primitive material in the Solar System, and vessels that could have transported these vital ingredients to Earth, is one of the key goals of the Rosetta mission, and we are delighted with this result."


source

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/31/2016 7:36:47 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Without being sentient, there is no awareness of existence.

How do you know?


By definition???

"Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.[1] Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience). In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as "qualia").

However,

"In Eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires respect and care. The concept is central to the philosophy of animal rights, because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, and thus is held to confer certain rights."

wiki



There are countless animal species that are sentient beings i.e., also aware of their own existence. That awareness includes almost any number of recognizable behavioral traits especially within their reaction to and awareness of others...of the same species.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/31/2016 7:40:12 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We are leaving religion out of it remember...but if you read my first post here and here you can get an idea on where i stand.

Butch

Don't know for sure if this is what you mean but to include the metaphysical doesn't necessarily require religion. That can also be purely spiritual in origin.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/31/2016 9:43:26 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.

And how do you know rocks don't do that

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/31/2016 10:18:45 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.

And how do you know rocks don't do that

Because they are inanimate. There is no molecular activity. Can't even carbon date rocks. Not nearly enough carbon 14 or RA left. So.....?

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 5/31/2016 10:20:07 PM >

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 1:03:24 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Because they are inanimate...

I don't see why being animate would be a requirement for having an interior awareness of being.

K.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 7:55:02 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Because they are inanimate...

I don't see why being animate would be a requirement for having an interior awareness of being.

K.


How can they have interior awareness of being if there is no consciousness? Awareness requires recognitions. Recognition requires sensory input to some internal receptor. Otherwise you are just making shit up.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 7:56:26 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.

And how do you know rocks don't do that

Just ask them

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 8:51:05 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

I don't see why being animate would be a requirement for having an interior awareness of being.

Exactly

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 8:55:09 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

How can they have interior awareness of being if there is no consciousness?

Perhaps conciousness comes in many different forms.
quote:

Awareness requires recognitions. Recognition requires sensory input to some internal receptor.

Why? Just because that's how it works for us? To quote the Bard: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 11:47:44 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

How can they have interior awareness of being if there is no consciousness?

Perhaps conciousness comes in many different forms.
quote:

Awareness requires recognitions. Recognition requires sensory input to some internal receptor.

Why? Just because that's how it works for us? To quote the Bard: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

If I remember correctly, Kirata claimed above that consciousness was not necessary for the internal awareness of inanimate matter, so your speculation of some alternate, unknown consciousness is not useful, DC.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 3:27:44 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.


And how do you know rocks don't do that



Indeed.

From an authority on that particular question, in fact, we have proof that even if rocks have no need of friendship, and disdain laughter and loving, they nevertheless are quite capable of looking out the window at a silent shroud of snow, and reading poetry. As they also are apparently well up to the task of emotional outburst sufficient to explicate all the above.

Also sprach Simonthustra


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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 3:41:42 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

How can they have interior awareness of being if there is no consciousness?

Perhaps conciousness comes in many different forms.
quote:

Awareness requires recognitions. Recognition requires sensory input to some internal receptor.

Why? Just because that's how it works for us? To quote the Bard: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

If I remember correctly, Kirata claimed above that consciousness was not necessary for the internal awareness of inanimate matter, so your speculation of some alternate, unknown consciousness is not useful, DC.

If you really wanted to take this into the abstract, we can't prove that we're conscious ourselves, rather than merely believing that we are. It's one of those ponderables that gives a certain type of philosopher conniptions, in fact.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 8:16:32 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

How can they have interior awareness of being if there is no consciousness?

Perhaps conciousness comes in many different forms.
quote:

Awareness requires recognitions. Recognition requires sensory input to some internal receptor.

Why? Just because that's how it works for us? To quote the Bard: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

If I remember correctly, Kirata claimed above that consciousness was not necessary for the internal awareness of inanimate matter, so your speculation of some alternate, unknown consciousness is not useful, DC.

If you really wanted to take this into the abstract, we can't prove that we're conscious ourselves, rather than merely believing that we are. It's one of those ponderables that gives a certain type of philosopher conniptions, in fact.

So, what do unconscious people believe? Hmmmm. . . .? Pondering, I am.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/1/2016 8:17:21 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 9:55:57 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

So, what do unconscious people believe? Hmmmm. . . .? Pondering, I am.

That they "know" things they don't know.

K.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/1/2016 11:15:50 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

If I remember correctly, Kirata claimed above that consciousness was not necessary for the internal awareness of inanimate matter, so your speculation of some alternate, unknown consciousness is not useful, DC.

And if I recall, correctly...
1) I am not Kirata, therefor what he says in no way binds me or limits my ideas or opinions
2) Kirata is not exactly a definitive authority, and so his claims are not binding on anybody and in no way binds or limits anybody's ideas or opinions
3) I have never stated that I was making any effort to be useful to Kirata or the furtherance of his ideas and opinions.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/2/2016 12:52:09 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

How can they have interior awareness of being if there is no consciousness?

Perhaps conciousness comes in many different forms.
quote:

Awareness requires recognitions. Recognition requires sensory input to some internal receptor.

Why? Just because that's how it works for us? To quote the Bard: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

If I remember correctly, Kirata claimed above that consciousness was not necessary for the internal awareness of inanimate matter, so your speculation of some alternate, unknown consciousness is not useful, DC.

If you really wanted to take this into the abstract, we can't prove that we're conscious ourselves, rather than merely believing that we are. It's one of those ponderables that gives a certain type of philosopher conniptions, in fact.

Conscious: aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc. I can prove that I am conscious. As Kant informed, apperception is consciousness of self and is not abstract at all, it is priori knowledge.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/2/2016 8:10:30 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

If I remember correctly, Kirata claimed above that consciousness was not necessary for the internal awareness of inanimate matter, so your speculation of some alternate, unknown consciousness is not useful, DC.

And if I recall, correctly...
1) I am not Kirata, therefor what he says in no way binds me or limits my ideas or opinions
2) Kirata is not exactly a definitive authority, and so his claims are not binding on anybody and in no way binds or limits anybody's ideas or opinions
3) I have never stated that I was making any effort to be useful to Kirata or the furtherance of his ideas and opinions.

It is true that Kirata is not the definitive authority but it is also true that I was replying to Kirata when you inserted the listless, overused, overly convenient, trite defense that "there may be alternate forms of whatever." which signals to me that you really have nothing of substance to contribute to the conversation and are only grasping for phantom, unknowable shit, which is basically religion that we were going to stay away from.

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