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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 5:17:12 AM   
WhoreMods


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Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline 		Sadly, kdsub's post 150 has completely shifted the debate into that territory now. The old "science can't explain this" line is the classic excuse for weaseling out any discussion about what science can be argued to prove in the physical world, isn't it?

termy, the original Anarchist's Cookbook had unworkable and dangerous stuff in it as well. I think the reprint edition from a few years back had a lot of stuff removed, didn't it? (That's hearsay, though, as I've only seen a copy of the original '70s version.)

< Message edited by WhoreMods -- 6/7/2016 5:28:39 AM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 7:32:13 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

No darling, in the real fucking world, maybe you should know the very basics of a topic before you comment.

A very generalized ad hominem slander. If you have a specific criticism please make it. Don't just stand there like a dumb tree. I notice you did not answer my previous criticism of your ignorant claims about the inner life of plants. Get back to us when you have something intelligent . . . anything intelligent would be refreshing from you pixie brain.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 7:34:42 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

I have only said that science demands evidence from observation of things seen or from testable hypotheses of things not necessarily seen.

And in doing so, you are wrong. You clearly understand neither science nor spirituality, and therefore are utterly unqualified to comment. And that explains the infantile nature of your responses.

Simply bullshit. Again, I call you out on your failure to respond to my earlier criticism.

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 7:36:25 AM   
Staleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

science tells us there is no scientific proof or even evidence to suggest further scientific investigation would produce proof of the existence of a god.

I'm sorry things have devolved into debating the question of God. To me, at least, that question falls into the category of religion. Science studies the material world, and the view that I would prefer to see questioned is that the physical world constitutes the whole of reality.

K.



Yep.

The domain of natural science is physics, biology, chemistry, etc. Metaphysics is something entirely different. The two fields are logically incompatible.

People should really leave science to science. It's methodology for obtaining knowledge about the mechanical principles, complex and simple, of the natural universe, but it can't explain everything and certainly doesn't cover all of human experience and knowledge.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 7:46:33 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Because they are inanimate...

I don't see why being animate would be a requirement for having an interior awareness of being.


Because the concept of awareness requires recognition, the concept of determining there is a there...there. That requires the electro-chemical activity in a brain to create the thought required to conceptualize that recognition.

I don't see why an awareness of being would necessarily require recognition that there is a "there" in addition.

K.

It is not an additional 'there.' It is the 'there' of being that requires awareness and recognition. Without awareness and recognition the thing is 'dumb.' "Being or nothingness" borrowing from Sartre, or to expand it a bit: be aware or don't be there.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/7/2016 7:47:18 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 12:50:42 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		No WhoreMods I am not shifting the discussion to the existence of God... What I have been saying is all things are possible because of the conundrum of the beginning of existence. A universal intelligence could be one possibility among an infinity of possibilities. Right now until we know more, if that will ever be possible, the existence of God cannot be and should not be thought anymore impossible then any other possibility.

Butch

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 1:06:06 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No WhoreMods I am not shifting the discussion to the existence of God... What I have been saying is all things are possible because of the conundrum of the beginning of existence. A universal intelligence could be one possibility among an infinity of possibilities. Right now until we know more, if that will ever be possible, the existence of God cannot be and should not be thought anymore impossible then any other possibility.

Butch

It is exactly what you are doing. . . sneaking god in through the back door when the OP asked you not to.

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 1:12:32 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Why think that Vince when I said your thoughts on God were just as possible as mine... My only point in this thread is to suggest, as my opinion, that no possibility can be arbitrarily excluded.

Butch

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 1:12:57 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No WhoreMods I am not shifting the discussion to the existence of God... What I have been saying is all things are possible because of the conundrum of the beginning of existence. A universal intelligence could be one possibility among an infinity of possibilities. Right now until we know more, if that will ever be possible, the existence of God cannot be and should not be thought anymore impossible then any other possibility.

Butch

I'm afraid Vincent is right, butch, that's exactly what I'd accused you of doing: using something that hasn't been explained by science as an argument that science cannot explain everything, and so does not rule out the possibility of divine intervention in anything that can't be explained.

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 1:20:06 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		You are right WhoreMods...now how is what you said trying to shift the discussion to religion? How is it sneaking the defense of the existence of God into the thread except to say the possibility of one cannot be excluded...along with an infinite amount of other possibilities.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 1:36:19 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Because they are inanimate...

I don't see why being animate would be a requirement for having an interior awareness of being.

Because the concept of awareness requires recognition, the concept of determining there is a there...there. That requires the electro-chemical activity in a brain to create the thought required to conceptualize that recognition.

I don't see why an awareness of being would necessarily require recognition that there is a "there" in addition.

It is not an additional 'there.' It is the 'there' of being that requires awareness and recognition.

The "there" of being?

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 4:49:51 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Because they are inanimate...

I don't see why being animate would be a requirement for having an interior awareness of being.

Because the concept of awareness requires recognition, the concept of determining there is a there...there. That requires the electro-chemical activity in a brain to create the thought required to conceptualize that recognition.

I don't see why an awareness of being would necessarily require recognition that there is a "there" in addition.

It is not an additional 'there.' It is the 'there' of being that requires awareness and recognition

The "there" of being?

K.

Of course. If a substance has being, its being must be somewhere. It seems a self-contradiction for being to be nowhere. Being occupies a locus. If being is nowhere it is not being. There must be a there, there, the there of being. Else wise, how could there be awareness of being if being is nowhere? The there must be there. It is or it isn't. I hope I am being sufficiently clear.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/7/2016 4:54:40 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 5:17:31 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

science tells us there is no scientific proof or even evidence to suggest further scientific investigation would produce proof of the existence of a god.

I'm sorry things have devolved into debating the question of God. To me, at least, that question falls into the category of religion. Science studies the material world, and the view that I would prefer to see questioned is that the physical world constitutes the whole of reality.

K.



With you on that one. Unfortunately, too many people inveighing on the topic consider a possible spiritual phenomenon (of whatever nature) for partial explanation of either/both the universe or "reality" necessarily to mean existence of "God," i.e. religion. That is, more simply, they are conflating spirituality with "God." The latter is an an entirely human-made convolution, to explain various observations to suit, very early in our exploration of what our minds were capable of understanding at the time. And of course, immediately co-opted by whatever powers that be at the time for quite nonspiritual motives..

But in this discussion (in light of past experience with the aforementioned) we have to recognize the readily available opportunism of those with other motives to use any object of such pursuit in this matter to stick a foot in the door for ... religion in schools -as required reading and study-, e.g., to make things more ... "balanced," as they claim.

Not saying any consideration or contemplation of the spiritual should be shut off, by any means. But watching where we are stepping would seem to be wise here.









< Message edited by Edwird -- 6/7/2016 5:25:30 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/7/2016 11:16:29 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Because they are inanimate...

I don't see why being animate would be a requirement for having an interior awareness of being.

Because the concept of awareness requires recognition, the concept of determining there is a there...there. That requires the electro-chemical activity in a brain to create the thought required to conceptualize that recognition.

I don't see why an awareness of being would necessarily require recognition that there is a "there" in addition.

It is not an additional 'there.' It is the 'there' of being that requires awareness and recognition

The "there" of being?

Of course. If a substance has being, its being must be somewhere. It seems a self-contradiction for being to be nowhere. Being occupies a locus. If being is nowhere it is not being. There must be a there, there, the there of being. Else wise, how could there be awareness of being if being is nowhere? The there must be there. It is or it isn't. I hope I am being sufficiently clear.

Why would an awareness of being require a wider awareness of one's location in space and time?

K.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/8/2016 9:07:20 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

TDC, you've said that you've been working in a bar for many years. Is this a bar that doesn't get many patrons, and in which you get to stand there, contemplating, for long periods?

I'm just wondering.

I am guessing you never worked a bar before.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/8/2016 9:10:20 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

In a Disney movie perhaps.

If so, then we are all living in a Disney movie.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-plants-think-daniel-chamovitz/
http://www.sciencealert.com/plants-really-do-respond-to-the-way-we-touch-them-scientists-reveal

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/8/2016 9:14:58 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

Why would an awareness of being require a wider awareness of one's location in space and time?

It does not. The second requires the first, but not the reverse.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/8/2016 9:15:16 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

TDC, you've said that you've been working in a bar for many years. Is this a bar that doesn't get many patrons, and in which you get to stand there, contemplating, for long periods?

I'm just wondering.

I am guessing you never worked a bar before.



I did, once. I was only 19 and I lasted maybe three weeks. I hated it.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/8/2016 12:19:55 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Because they are inanimate...

I don't see why being animate would be a requirement for having an interior awareness of being.

Because the concept of awareness requires recognition, the concept of determining there is a there...there. That requires the electro-chemical activity in a brain to create the thought required to conceptualize that recognition.

I don't see why an awareness of being would necessarily require recognition that there is a "there" in addition.

It is not an additional 'there.' It is the 'there' of being that requires awareness and recognition

The "there" of being?

Of course. If a substance has being, its being must be somewhere. It seems a self-contradiction for being to be nowhere. Being occupies a locus. If being is nowhere it is not being. There must be a there, there, the there of being. Else wise, how could there be awareness of being if being is nowhere? The there must be there. It is or it isn't. I hope I am being sufficiently clear.

Why would an awareness of being require a wider awareness of one's location in space and time?

K.

No, it does not require a wider awareness of space time, not a cosmic awareness of space time, not a GPS awareness of space time, but awareness of existential space time, the thereness of being. I am aware of where my being is even if I am not aware of my geography.

Put me into a sensory deprived box, carry me to a blacked out room, leave me there in utter silence and darkness, and I will still be aware of my existential locus.

Being and locus are inseparable; either is a void without the other. Your thoughts?


< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/8/2016 12:22:58 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 6/9/2016 9:03:49 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Why would an awareness of being require a wider awareness of one's location in space and time?

No, it does not require a wider awareness of space time, not a cosmic awareness of space time, not a GPS awareness of space time, but awareness of existential space time, the thereness of being. I am aware of where my being is even if I am not aware of my geography.

Implicit in being aware of "where" your being is is being aware of where it is not. It does not seem to me that an awareness of being would necessarily require spatial conceptions of here and there, "existential" or otherwise.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 180
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