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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 5/31/2016 5:05:38 PM   
ReMakeYou


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quote:

Perhaps it was simply a casual conversation. Or he really is a creep and was pumping her for the information and she was graciously feeding it to him because she didn't want to be rude and/or being nice to customers is her job; and if so, then he's sort of imposing on her graciousness by not recognizing her feelings and dropping it.


Handy link.

First, there are ways to feel out someone's thoughts on an issue without being as blunt. If you're awkward to the point where subtext trips you up, you may want to avoid more complex social maneuvers. Since service staff are paid to be nice to you, making a pass at service staff definitely counts as complex.

Second, and this is what stands out as key to me. OP doesn't even know what this girl's name is, and yet he wants to propose something that would deeply entangle their lives. If he just wanted to make a pass, that would be one thing (remembering that the fact that she's service staff is a complicating factor, and knowing that being too blunt is a faux pas). Wanting to share a living situation with someone he barely knows (as well as assuming that their tastes/kinks will be compatible, another popular assumption when someone asks these sorts of questions about someone they barely know) implies that it's less about this person who's name he hasn't bothered to learn and more about the fantasy of having a much younger kept woman.

And whenever someone builds up elaborate fantasies about someone else they barely know, they tend to react badly to the object of their crush not living up to what they've built up in their heads.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 5/31/2016 5:21:45 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
ORIGINAL: thompsonx
ORIGINAL: verbatimguy


I had a sugaar babe only once and it cost me her rent and "romantic" moneys like going to dinner and buying her clothes.
It was a couple of thousand a month.
Isnt that about what wife/girlfriend cost?



Depends entirely on the girlfriend/wife. Some can be had for far less than that (if she works herself and believes in not meddling resources, you'd in fact end up saving money, not spending it, by marrying her).
Some cost far more than that.


That would seem most obvious. I was pointing out the similarity in cost in a general sense.

What a girlfriend/wife costs is also not relevant to this situation, considering that he's offering her the position of girlfriend/wife.


Actully he is offering her a contract wife/girlfriend job.


A girlfriend/wife comes into a relationship on equal terms.

Not in the real world.


She's entitled to say 'no' when not in the mood for sex, even if it's for weeks at a time. She ought to be able to expect to continue being cared for/loved if an unfortunate accident landed her in a wheelchair needing more assistance. She has joint decision making regarding household finances, where the couple lives, what they do on weekends together, etc.

Only in an ideal world. In the real world there are many abandoned women who became so as a result of a similar situation the ones you describe.

All these things don't apply to the contract position of live-in-sex-kitten. If our bartender refuses to perform in bed, or becomes ill. She could expect to be out in the street. She won't have a say on where they live, how he spends his time (even with her), hell, she won't even have a say on what's on tv that night in the living room, considering that it would be 'his' house she lives in. Not theirs.


Both are entitled to the same level of respect that typically neither get.


If she would want to spend all her weekend time away from 'his' domicile (to avoid him) he will in short order raise that as an issue, because she's not available to fulfill her contractually obligated sexual duties to him.

Just as would happen with a wife/girlfrend

Her position would not at all be that one of a girlfriend/wife, as she would have far less freedom and say, and far more stringently defined conditions to meet in order to ensure the continued roof over her head.

You have failed to show that most wives/girlfriends have those freedoms.


As such, the money that she would 'reasonably' be due cannot sensibly be based on what a wife/girlfriend costs, as the two positions aren't all that much alike, other than superficially.


I simply pointed out that a wife/girlfriend cost about what he said he was paying for the sugar baby. I would have to know more before I could do a cba on the advantages of purchase vs. lease.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 5/31/2016 5:23:14 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasnpetrichor
Maybe it's just that I'm socially awkward myself, but I don't personally find anything off-putting in either the age difference or in the directness of his offer.

Your results may vary, of course.



I do not have an opinion on any individual's personal comfort level with the idea of such an offer. But I do find it disturbing when men do not see how, as a societal norm, this is inappropriate. The average woman would be insulted and offended at being approached with an offer of prostitution when she has done nothing to encourage that perception.

I am basing this entirely on the info that the OP himself has given. His sole reason for considering this in the first place has nothing to do with any relationship he has established with her; it has nothing to do with anything she has said or done to indicate she would be open to the idea. His motivation for all of this has to do with an article he read all on his own, entirely independent of any interaction with her whatsoever. And despite the fact that the article itself admits that there is no evidence whatsoever to actually support the ideas proposed, the OP has decided that he has sufficient cause to believe that a young woman working an honest job would be open to prostitution.

For someone to have that as their default way of thinking is creepy.


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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 5/31/2016 5:25:47 PM   
thompsonx


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implies that it's less about this person who's name he hasn't bothered to learn and more about the fantasy of having a much younger kept woman.

Then of course there is the counter poise of nick and nora charles...(kept older man)




< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/31/2016 5:26:25 PM >

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 5/31/2016 5:38:09 PM   
pleasnpetrichor


Posts: 72
Joined: 1/13/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ReMakeYou

quote:

Perhaps it was simply a casual conversation. Or he really is a creep and was pumping her for the information and she was graciously feeding it to him because she didn't want to be rude and/or being nice to customers is her job; and if so, then he's sort of imposing on her graciousness by not recognizing her feelings and dropping it.


Handy link.

First, there are ways to feel out someone's thoughts on an issue without being as blunt. If you're awkward to the point where subtext trips you up, you may want to avoid more complex social maneuvers. Since service staff are paid to be nice to you, making a pass at service staff definitely counts as complex.


That's a good point (and, as an aside, I do try to avoid complex social maneuvers). But, without meaning to be argumentative, I would say this: Firstly, I think *everyone* strives to find a balance point between socially pleasing and being themselves. And everyone draws that line in a slightly different place. In my opinion (and of course other people are free to *theirs*) I don't see anything absolutely wrong in the point where the OP finds that balance. If he had walked up and groped her...if rather than *asking* her he had simply assumed that she would be interested and begun by laying money on the table and giving orders... if he had expressed himself to her more crudely than he has done here... then I would agree and say, you're right, he did commit a major faux pas and deserves condemnation. Or, alternately, if I didn't believe that *she* (without compromising her job or being rude and/or improper) could freely say: look I don't appreciate that, please don't make those kinds of overtures and/or ask me that kind of personal information... but I *do* think she's free to say that. I believe she could say it without compromising her job or being at all unprofessional or impolite.

quote:

Second, and this is what stands out as key to me. OP doesn't even know what this girl's name is, and yet he wants to propose something that would deeply entangle their lives. If he just wanted to make a pass, that would be one thing (remembering that the fact that she's service staff is a complicating factor, and knowing that being too blunt is a faux pas). Wanting to share a living situation with someone he barely knows (as well as assuming that their tastes/kinks will be compatible, another popular assumption when someone asks these sorts of questions about someone they barely know) implies that it's less about this person who's name he hasn't bothered to learn and more about the fantasy of having a much younger kept woman.

And whenever someone builds up elaborate fantasies about someone else they barely know, they tend to react badly to the object of their crush not living up to what they've built up in their heads.


That's certainly very true.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 5/31/2016 6:08:50 PM   
ReMakeYou


Posts: 147
Joined: 1/20/2012
Status: offline 		If you acknowledge that asking someone you barely know to be your live-in sugar baby is a touch excessive, then hopefully you can understand why so much of the reaction here hinges on that issue.

The more general form of making a pass at a bartender is noticeably less fraught. If he just asked her out to dinner or something like that, I'd be a lot more on his side. But we're reacting to the specific case as opposed to a lighter general one.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 5/31/2016 6:58:50 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ReMakeYou

If you acknowledge that asking someone you barely know to be your live-in sugar baby is a touch excessive, then hopefully you can understand why so much of the reaction here hinges on that issue.

The more general form of making a pass at a bartender is noticeably less fraught. If he just asked her out to dinner or something like that, I'd be a lot more on his side. But we're reacting to the specific case as opposed to a lighter general one.

Exactly. Thank you.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 5/31/2016 9:50:04 PM   
pleasnpetrichor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
You don't spend a lot of time in bars do you?


You got me there.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 5/31/2016 11:18:19 PM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
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Status: offline 		You are comparing apples and oranges.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: verbatimguy

I had a sugaar babe only once and it cost me her rent and "romantic" moneys like going to dinner and buying her clothes.
It was a couple of thousand a month.

Isnt that about what wife/girlfriend cost?

Gimme a break. According to vguy, he had this sex-on-demand arrangement for about 2 years before one or both of them broke it off due to sugar baby not putting out more than 5 times a week. (Tell me you didn't require sex for 1 out of 4 weeks while she was on her period, or else this guy really is a douchebag.)

In what freaking universe does two years elapse where one-sided sex (the sexual component portion) continues with such frequency -- dates, dinner, clothes, "romantic" monies *pff-ft* notwithstanding? The sex bimbo universe?

In what freaking universe of unattached men - other than the ogre-ish old geezer dimension - does any young lady (or any woman for that matter) become a kept woman, unless she is serving as a married man's mistress?

Couples who live together SAVE on living expenses by living together. Not applicable to either a kept woman, or to keeping a mistress on the side.

Typically, men look to date and to spend money on dating for as brief a period as possible. Who do you know who spends anywhere close to a thousand bucks monthly on his girlfriend outside of conducting an illicit extramarital affair (or on his main squeeze, for that matter)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
What a girlfriend/wife costs is also not relevant to this situation, considering that he's [NOT] offering her the position of girlfriend/wife.

Actully he is offering her a contract wife/girlfriend job.

Brackets fix, mine. The girlfriend/wife comparison to "sugar baby who isn't being treated like a real girlfriend" comparison is totally irrelevant.
No, this is not at all what OP has on the hypothetical table, which is more akin to sex-for-room & board compensation, and not even a paid companion *position*.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
A girlfriend/wife comes into a relationship on equal terms.

Not in the real world.

True, this. Although I'm not sure what point thompson was trying to make or where he was coming from with his retort.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Both are entitled to the same level of respect that typically neither get.

Unfortunately, this is true as well, more often than not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
I simply pointed out that a wife/girlfriend cost about what he said he was paying for the sugar baby. I would have to know more before I could do a cba on the advantages of purchase vs. lease.

Doncha know by now that you throw most of your money away by leasing vs. owning? Unwise investment-wise, and ultimately having nothing to show for yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Then of course there is the counter poise of nick and nora charles...(kept older man)

You wish. Those were fictional characters on a celluloid screen. Fake.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 1:44:55 AM   
LadyConstanze


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As a student I tended bar as well, there was an elderly gentleman, I always really liked him, not because he tipped well but because he seemed genuinely nice and a bit lonely and mentioned he's a widower, so I always made sure he was comfy, if I had a bit of time chatted to him. One day he made a similar suggestion as the OP thinks about... I was totally creeped out and while not being rude, I stopped chatting to him and did my best to avoid him.

Not that I didn't date guys older than me, not quite in the grandpa range, but the suggestion that I'm for sale or rent, that was quite insulting. I would assume most women feel that way.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 3:25:55 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

but the suggestion that I'm for sale or rent, that was quite insulting. I would assume most women feel that way.

The only thing I would find insulting would be if the sale/rental price ws too low...other than that put your money on the table hon I m for rent.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 3:39:54 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Isnt that about what wife/girlfriend cost?

Gimme a break. According to vguy, he had this sex-on-demand arrangement for about 2 years before one or both of them broke it off due to sugar baby not putting out more than 5 times a week. (Tell me you didn't require sex for 1 out of 4 weeks while she was on her period, or else this guy really is a douchebag.)

????Sex is sex whether one is having one's period or not.

In what freaking universe does two years elapse where one-sided sex (the sexual component portion) continues with such frequency -- dates, dinner, clothes, "romantic" monies *pff-ft* notwithstanding? The sex bimbo universe?

Not my issue.

In what freaking universe of unattached men - other than the ogre-ish old geezer dimension - does any young lady (or any woman for that matter) become a kept woman, unless she is serving as a married man's mistress?

The one we are discussing???

Couples who live together SAVE on living expenses by living together. Not applicable to either a kept woman, or to keeping a mistress on the side.

The poster I was responding to was not living together with his sugar baby. My point was that his cost were not out of line with costs for a wife/grlfriend.

Typically, men look to date and to spend money on dating for as brief a period as possible.

Opinions vary.



Who do you know who spends anywhere close to a thousand bucks monthly on his girlfriend outside of conducting an illicit extramarital affair (or on his main squeeze, for that matter)?

Me

Brackets fix, mine. The girlfriend/wife comparison to "sugar baby who isn't being treated like a real girlfriend" comparison is totally irrelevant.

That parameter has not been established.

No, this is not at all what OP has on the hypothetical table, which is more akin to sex-for-room & board compensation, and not even a paid companion *position*.

How is it that you see those two as being not equal positions?


I simply pointed out that a wife/girlfriend cost about what he said he was paying for the sugar baby. I would have to know more before I could do a cba on the advantages of purchase vs. lease.

Doncha know by now that you throw most of your money away by leasing vs. owning? Unwise investment-wise, and ultimately having nothing to show for yourself.

If owning, ultimately becomes a liability then leasing is the prefered course...thus my request for more data before making a cba.

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Then of course there is the counter poise of nick and nora charles...(kept older man)

You wish. Those were fictional characters on a celluloid screen. Fake.

Just as fake as tom arnold and rosanne.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 6:34:57 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

but the suggestion that I'm for sale or rent, that was quite insulting. I would assume most women feel that way.

The only thing I would find insulting would be if the sale/rental price ws too low...other than that put your money on the table hon I m for rent.



That's the point most women on the thread are trying to make though: most guys, for the right price, WOULD be for rent. In fact, most guys would consider it rather flattering if a woman would WANT to rent them. Most guys don't mind having sex with people they don't really give a fuck about.

Most women, on the other hand, are NOT men. And they are not for rent, not even for the right price. And they do not find it flattering if a man would wish to rent them. And they cannot separate out sex from emotions, and therefore DO mind having sex with people they don't give a fuck about, regardless of how much they're paid to do so.
For many women this aversion to casual sex with men they don't find attractive, is so deeply biologically ingrained as a means for her to protect against unwanted pregnancy -which is evolutionary speaking incredible costly for a woman- that they cannot overcome their repulsion to sleep with men who don't interest them for any amount, not even for incredibly large sums of money. Most women's aversion to sleeping with men they don't care about is on par with a deep-seeded phobia, and it would require something akin to aversion therapy training for them to overcome their repulsion for sleeping with a random man.
Suggesting that most women have a price for sleeping with a random man, provided it's high enough, is thinking like a man would and it simple doesn't apply to women, considering that when somebody has something akin to a phobia, merely throwing more money at them isn't going to help them overcome it. Many women don't have a price when it comes to sleeping with random men, and even if you could somehow convince them to try anyways, by paying them some absurd amount, you'd get them attempting to do it with the same seal as somebody with a spider phobia would put a tarantula in their mouth for the same absurd amount: not exactly the attitude you're looking for when you're paying somebody to fuck them.

Men are not the same as women.
Just because, when you guys imagine yourselves in our shoes you imagine 'I wouldn't mind getting an offer like that', doesn't mean that the same thing applies to actual women.




< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 6/1/2016 6:46:46 AM >

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 8:43:07 AM   
verbatimguy


Posts: 203
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

but the suggestion that I'm for sale or rent, that was quite insulting. I would assume most women feel that way.

The only thing I would find insulting would be if the sale/rental price ws too low...other than that put your money on the table hon I m for rent.



That's the point most women on the thread are trying to make though: most guys, for the right price, WOULD be for rent. In fact, most guys would consider it rather flattering if a woman would WANT to rent them. Most guys don't mind having sex with people they don't really give a fuck about.

Most women, on the other hand, are NOT men. And they are not for rent, not even for the right price. And they do not find it flattering if a man would wish to rent them. And they cannot separate out sex from emotions, and therefore DO mind having sex with people they don't give a fuck about, regardless of how much they're paid to do so.
For many women this aversion to casual sex with men they don't find attractive, is so deeply biologically ingrained as a means for her to protect against unwanted pregnancy -which is evolutionary speaking incredible costly for a woman- that they cannot overcome their repulsion to sleep with men who don't interest them for any amount, not even for incredibly large sums of money. Most women's aversion to sleeping with men they don't care about is on par with a deep-seeded phobia, and it would require something akin to aversion therapy training for them to overcome their repulsion for sleeping with a random man.
Suggesting that most women have a price for sleeping with a random man, provided it's high enough, is thinking like a man would and it simple doesn't apply to women, considering that when somebody has something akin to a phobia, merely throwing more money at them isn't going to help them overcome it. Many women don't have a price when it comes to sleeping with random men, and even if you could somehow convince them to try anyways, by paying them some absurd amount, you'd get them attempting to do it with the same seal as somebody with a spider phobia would put a tarantula in their mouth for the same absurd amount: not exactly the attitude you're looking for when you're paying somebody to fuck them.

Men are not the same as women.
Just because, when you guys imagine yourselves in our shoes you imagine 'I wouldn't mind getting an offer like that', doesn't mean that the same thing applies to actual women.





He is right when he says men are not th4e same as woman.

Men only problem is vd and paying for unwanted baby.
Woman actualy cares about unwanted baby.

Unmwnted baby ruins womans life while unmwanted baby just something to get rid of for most men.

Nothing is the same about teh men think regarding the woman think on this subjects.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 8:45:17 AM   
verbatimguy


Posts: 203
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

You are comparing apples and oranges.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: verbatimguy

I had a sugaar babe only once and it cost me her rent and "romantic" moneys like going to dinner and buying her clothes.
It was a couple of thousand a month.

Isnt that about what wife/girlfriend cost?

Gimme a break. According to vguy, he had this sex-on-demand arrangement for about 2 years before one or both of them broke it off due to sugar baby not putting out more than 5 times a week. (Tell me you didn't require sex for 1 out of 4 weeks while she was on her period, or else this guy really is a douchebag.)

In what freaking universe does two years elapse where one-sided sex (the sexual component portion) continues with such frequency -- dates, dinner, clothes, "romantic" monies *pff-ft* notwithstanding? The sex bimbo universe?

In what freaking universe of unattached men - other than the ogre-ish old geezer dimension - does any young lady (or any woman for that matter) become a kept woman, unless she is serving as a married man's mistress?

Couples who live together SAVE on living expenses by living together. Not applicable to either a kept woman, or to keeping a mistress on the side.

Typically, men look to date and to spend money on dating for as brief a period as possible. Who do you know who spends anywhere close to a thousand bucks monthly on his girlfriend outside of conducting an illicit extramarital affair (or on his main squeeze, for that matter)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
What a girlfriend/wife costs is also not relevant to this situation, considering that he's [NOT] offering her the position of girlfriend/wife.

Actully he is offering her a contract wife/girlfriend job.

Brackets fix, mine. The girlfriend/wife comparison to "sugar baby who isn't being treated like a real girlfriend" comparison is totally irrelevant.
No, this is not at all what OP has on the hypothetical table, which is more akin to sex-for-room & board compensation, and not even a paid companion *position*.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
A girlfriend/wife comes into a relationship on equal terms.

Not in the real world.

True, this. Although I'm not sure what point thompson was trying to make or where he was coming from with his retort.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Both are entitled to the same level of respect that typically neither get.

Unfortunately, this is true as well, more often than not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
I simply pointed out that a wife/girlfriend cost about what he said he was paying for the sugar baby. I would have to know more before I could do a cba on the advantages of purchase vs. lease.

Doncha know by now that you throw most of your money away by leasing vs. owning? Unwise investment-wise, and ultimately having nothing to show for yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Then of course there is the counter poise of nick and nora charles...(kept older man)

You wish. Those were fictional characters on a celluloid screen. Fake.


What does period have to do with not having sex?
So you clean up a little more.
Not a deal that is big.

Why you make someithing so little so big?
You not like sex so look for headachae excuses?

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 9:04:33 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
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quote:

What dimension do you live in where you find it unreasonable that a bartender (male or female)would not get propositioned for sex...

Of course they do, they spend their days dealing with lonely drunk people.
quote:

why do you think people become bartenders?

Because the pay is better and the work easier than waiting tables, and also they get propositioned for sex way less than those waiting tables do.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 9:06:16 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

Also, free room and board is generally not enough of a bribe for creepy intergenerational sex.


How much do you feel would be appropriate?

A couple of thou a month on top of the room and board, depending on what type of creepy intergenerational sex is required and how often.

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RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 9:09:59 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

I'm reluctant to judge the situation since I didn't witness it myself,

I'm not, because I have been a barmaid for years, and yeah, telling a patron some sort of sob story is a common way to encourage them to tip better.

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 9:11:29 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline
quote:

I would be most interested in how you draw your distinctions.

Oh that's easy.
Sex: Will you fuck me?
Prostitution: How much to fuck me?

_____________________________

Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Why not offer a Young girl, an Arrangement? - 6/1/2016 9:12:03 AM   
Danemora


Posts: 752
Joined: 10/9/2006
Status: offline 		Its all convenient reasons to not have to fuck you. Why make a big deal about it? Why the hell not! Anything is bound to be better than having you climb onboard. Headache, period, being torn apart by rabid wolverines high on angel dust, bamboo shoots driven under fingernails, etc.

Not all men though. Just you.

< Message edited by Danemora -- 6/1/2016 9:13:04 AM >

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~The artist formerly known as SeekingTrinity on tour as a solo act~

(in reply to verbatimguy)
Profile   Post #: 140
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