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RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/5/2016 10:49:21 AM   
Staleek


Posts: 361
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I find you to be a hysterically pompous, self-important ignoramus who can't construct an argument to save his life.


Far out

That's got to be up there with Trump calling journalists 'liars'. Brilliant!


He does come across like Donald Trump, a man who has also been associated with the Dunning Kruger effect.

http://thefrayground.com/donald-trump-and-the-dunning-kruger-effect/

Some people hopelessly out of their depth when standing in a tiny barrel. But, because of their limited minds, they think within that barrel exists the world, and those who speak of the outside of it know nothing.

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RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/5/2016 11:26:34 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
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quote:

I respect your response and I do see that you're a moderate feminist.

Thanks, and to be honest I am more and more begining to think I am the radical feminist. :)
quote:

It's unfortunate that most to all I come across on the internet seem closed minded about men having gender issues too.

Likewise with those advocating for men's issues, the majority one encounters on the Internet are very closed minded about women's gender issues. That is because the Internet attracts the crazies, not the rational people. The rational people are out doing things, not ranting about them online. The lesson is to not take what you see on the Internet as representative of the real world.
quote:

they don't usually show up in feminist spaces or come up and claim to be one unless you bring the topic onto them.
Why would anybody want to hang out in "feminist spaces", they tend to be taco fests, and while I am fond of tacos, I love sausages. And why would anybody announce themselves to be any sort of ist unless the topic came up? It's not the sort of thing one just proclaims.
quote:

It would be good if the moderate feminists openly opposed against the ones we see all the time around the internet and mainstream.

And it would be good if the moderate men's advocates openly opposed the virulent anti-feminist MRA types. But neither of those things is going to happen, because it's really pointless. See, the only people who take the totally batshit feminists seriously are the batshit MRAs, and the only people who take the batshit MRAs seriously are the batshit feminists. And neither of those groups gives a fuck what anybody says because they are wedded to their phantasmagorical narrative.

Take the patriarchal social structure, the MRAs all claim it does not exist, and yet it is the patriarchal social structure that is at the root of all their complaints. So, since they refuse to eve acknowledge the existence of the thing causing their issues, they will never resolve them. In fact, in time, it is the feminist movement that will resolve those issues for them, and you can be sure that they will be kicking and screaming the whole time.

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RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/5/2016 11:30:32 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
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quote:

He does come across like Donald Trump, a man who has also been associated with the Dunning Kruger effect.

That he does.

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RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/5/2016 1:54:55 PM   
Awareness


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Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
No it doesn't, not always. For example:

http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199830060/obo-9780199830060-0051.xml
I said it hinges on reproductive success. Kin selection isn't going to replace sexual selection and propagation.

Let me get this straight: Your ego is so massively butthurt by your status as a lesser man that you're inventing theories to explain why you're oppressed AND you're attempting to claim that women don't actually choose men based on survival traits but do so based upon personal fetishes.

What's pretty fucking clear to me is that you have almost no experience with fucking women. Because if you did, you wouldn't talk such fucking bullshit.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
Again, men choose women based upon reproductive traits. The likelihood of successful pregnancy and delivery. It's the fact that pregnancy makes women vulnerable for 9 months which means that women who choose men with strong survival traits GAIN ADVANTAGE and are thus much more likely to reproduce successfully.


Again, no.

Einstein said: "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong."
Thus Einstein articulates the principle of falsifiability. However this is completely irrelevant in a discussion in which you're attempting to deny that women select men based upon survival characteristics.

quote:

If your assertions are true, and that the selection of mate basically boils down to sucessfully replicating your genes, then you have to explain away all the times that is not the case. You have yet to explain why some guys like short-sighted girls. Or why some guys like larger women. Or why some women prefer bald men, short men, tall men, etc. Why people will stay with their spouse even if they find out the other is infertile. Why
First off, a little education. I can see you're an individual with both limited knowledge and intelligence.

Sexual selection is largely the province of women. I say largely because roughly 20% of men possess the necessary social dominance to trigger attraction in women. Consequently, the vast majority of men lack choice. Men without choice lack discrimination. Because they lack options, they tend to lack preferences.

A man's most advantageous evolutionary strategy is to fuck as many fertile women as possible and then leave other men to raise the offspring, minimising his own investment.

A woman's most advantageous evolutionary strategy is fuck an alpha and keep him around to guard her and the child. However alphas are notoriously unreliable and not prone to investment. Consequently the second best thing is to find a controllable provider and fuck as many passing alpha males as she can. When choosing which man to fuck, survival traits predominate.

However, if you're a weak man or an ugly woman, your choices are limited. You're in competition with everyone else for the same desirable mates. So, consequently, people settle for what they can get.

Similarly, your choice of fetish is irrelevant to who'll you fuck and have offspring with. Just because a man is turned on by a woman who chokes on cock till she vomits doesn't mean he'll choose her to be the mother of his child. You're confusing sex with domestic partnership AND mating. The three situations are completely different and your conflation of the three just betrays the level of your ignorance.

quote:


Sexual tastes are wide and varied. You're trying to say they're not, while posting on a website that is set up to cater to those who have wide and varied sexual tastes.
What the fuck does sexual taste have to do with fucking to produce offspring? Christ, you're naive.

quote:


You are a walking example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You not only have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, but have supreme confidence
A walking example? As opposed to all those non-walking examples? Are you just a moron or do you copy-paste your stupidity from a central source?

The first person to invoke Dunning-Kruger is usually the one suffering from it. It's kind of like a pop-psychology version of Godwin's Law. Given you haven't actually constructed an argument but have linked to things you clearly don't understand, if there's anyone here who's suffering from delusional competence, it's you lad.

Here's an idea. Try actually constructing an argument. Do you know how to do that?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
That link actually supports what I'm saying. Did you read the fucking summary? Which states that "Darwin’s theory of sexual selection has been supported by recent observations, experiments and comparative studies" and that "Male-male competition and female choice for direct benefits are relatively well understood"? Did you notice that it further reading includes Matt Ridley's "The Red Queen" which specifically supports my view, rather than yours?

Christ, this is like lecturing a village idiot. You keep hitting yourself in the face and I can't help laughing.


Ok. You take a study, look at one single title in the "Further reading" section, and you use that to basically ignore every single other thing in the entire paper. Do you really think that's how to interpret a source?
This from the man who totally ignored the conclusions of the summary and doesn't appear to understand what the paper was actually about? Christ, now that's irony, right there.

quote:


It has also been recently demonstrated that animals as well as humans evolve due to cultural factors as well. Attempting to boil selecting a mate down to survival, even in animals, is... dumb. Sorry but there is no other word for this in the face of the actual science I've presented which proves the contrary.
You don't actually understand how natural selection works, do you? Ye Gods, you've come to a gunfight with a fucking water pistol. You sad little fucker.

I said - very specifically - 'survival traits'. Survival traits are physical, behavioural and cultural. Cultures with warrior traditions are - in many instances - more likely to survive and propagate than peaceniks who don't know how to fight. Do you know what a meme is? Perhaps an evolutionary primer might help?

quote:

ORIGINAL:
Everyone has a "type", or several "types", that they're into, and it has nothing to do with survival of the fittest. Everyone single person over the age of 18 on the entire planet, including you, knows this, yet you are actually denying it in an attempt to "win" an argument on the internet.
Who said this was about survival of the fittest? Once again, you know sweet fuck all about natural selection, don't you?

quote:


You're basically a man placing a twig on his head and claiming he is a tree.
That's an ironic comment coming from a man who has no idea what he's talking about and is clearly off his tree.

quote:


Dunning-Kruger it is.
Christ, it's like watching a monkey finger-paint with his own feces then display it proudly to everyone within sight. Your pride is completely unfounded given the degree to which you're covered in shit.


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RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/5/2016 4:21:09 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
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LOL

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RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/6/2016 2:38:17 AM   
Staleek


Posts: 361
Joined: 6/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
--Snipped because I am feeling sympathetic--


Your interpretation of how science works, as well as evolution, is quite remarkable, but for the wrong reasons. Still, no harm in that. I want to cut out a lot of the crap and boil this down though, because this is getting a little absurd and I can't be bothered with it anymore.

In all honesty, and despite the tantrum you're inevitably going to throw, I advise you to read this post carefully and take it with you to wherever else you post, because it might just stop you from looking like an idiot.

1. Evolution works by natural selection. Mutations in the gene pool make each and every single organism out there subtly different, even from their own species. These subtle differences, over time, will ensure that a creature either has a small advantage or disadvantage over others. Many thousands of generations are required for these differences to really kick in, (if you don't believe in saltation), but when they do the animals with the advantage tend to outlive and outlast those with the disadvantage due to environmental pressures.

Let us look at a massively oversimplified example. A bunch of cats are living in a varied but sparse woodland. It splits into two distinct groups;

Group (1) grows a thinner and less agile body, with longer and leaner legs. It is capable of running at speed but is not very strong or suited for climbing.

Group (2) develops more body weight and powerful jaws. The legs and paws become more agile and powerful, and are suited not just for climbing in trees but also taking down prey.

Which will survive, group (1) or group (2)? The answer depends on what happens in the environment. If the climate changes and the forests disappear group (2) will likely go extinct. If the climate changes and the forests become thicker group (1) will likely go extinct. If it remains the same both organisms will continue to survive and evolve until something changes.

2. Evolution doesn't work by psychic eugenics. In no history did a female ape look out from her tree and say "You know, this climate is becoming rather dryer. In two millions years these forests are likely to disappear. I think I'll find a mate with longer legs to screw so my kids can walk on the ground better, then our species can start developing in the right direction!". I am going to be extremely charitable and politely point out that this theory does not have scientific consensus.

Yes, the mating game plays a part, but not in the way you seem to think. Most animals just try to nail anything of the opposite sex in an attempt to push out as many copies of themselves as possible. But some pair up and create families. But that's a cultural thing (yes, even the simple act of not eating each other and sharing food is an act of culture). And these cultural pressures are themselves subject to natural selection. In some situations pairing up with the strongest and most powerful mate will confer an advantage in breeding. But in other situations pairing up with a faster mate, or a smarter mate, or a mate less prone to disease, will all yield better survival chances. Applying your own particular preferences, based on your self-image, to the entirety of not only humanity but the natural world is kind of... egotistical.

3. More generally, I am sure you're not only a mighty mighty macho man but also a paragon of intellect and wisdom. However, admitting mistakes or a lack of knowledge on a particular subject is not a weakness. Indeed continuing to keep on trying to pretend you know what you're talking about when it's crystal clear you don't is a sign of weakness. Believing you're right about everything in spite of all established facts working against you is a sign of megalomania. And being afraid to be seen to be wrong is a sign of massive insecurity.

I know your ego is going to demand a manly tantrum, so have at it and get it off your chest. However this advice might serve you well in debates in the future. Best of luck to you.



< Message edited by Staleek -- 6/6/2016 3:05:20 AM >

(in reply to Awareness)
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RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/6/2016 5:18:11 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
...because it might just stop you from looking like an idiot.

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, effendi.


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RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/6/2016 6:12:16 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

1. Evolution works by natural selection. Mutations in the gene pool make each and every single organism out there subtly different, even from their own species.


Well, not really.

Research today (for the past few decades, actually) favors punctuated equilibrium (e.g., pepper moths abruptly turning from white to black, Galapagos finches changing beak lengths in wet and dry seasons) as key to evolutionary progress. And while mutations can and do occur, each and every single organism is different because of different collections and activations of genes (which don't have to mutate for individuality). From there, as we go through life, additional mutations occur as we replicate cells. But it's not at the heart of our genetic individuality.

Evolution, however, works by whichever individuals reproduce successfully. Period.

(in reply to Staleek)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/7/2016 8:32:20 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
Your interpretation of how science works, as well as evolution, is quite remarkable, but for the wrong reasons. Still, no harm in that. I want to cut out a lot of the crap and boil this down though, because this is getting a little absurd and I can't be bothered with it anymore.
In other words, you're losing and want to cut and run. Unsurprising. However, given that you're the one who seems to be having trouble with the science, I'm amused by the irony.

quote:

In all honesty, and despite the tantrum you're inevitably going to throw, I advise you to read this post carefully and take it with you to wherever else you post, because it might just stop you from looking like an idiot.
Given your original post was an attempt to feel better about yourself by positing an idea which flies in the face of the evolutionary principles we're discussing, you really should take your own advice. Part of the problem here is that it's astonishingly easy to divine your intent. And your intent is founded in your weakness.

I have no intention of apologising for hurting your little feelings. Suck it up. You know... like a man.

quote:


1. Evolution works by natural selection. Mutations in the gene pool make each and every single organism out there subtly different, even from their own species. These subtle differences, over time, will ensure that a creature either has a small advantage or disadvantage over others. Many thousands of generations are required for these differences to really kick in, (if you don't believe in saltation), but when they do the animals with the advantage tend to outlive and outlast those with the disadvantage due to environmental pressures.
Wrong. Natural selection operates solely on survival to the point reproductive success, with continued reproductive success conveying further advantage. And it's not about "advantage over others", that's a mis-characterisation of the mechanisms at work. "Advantage over others" is a nebulous term which means nothing without definition.

In short, natural selection is a passive mechanism which describes the propagation of genes based upon reproductive success which is contingent upon adaption to the environment. That environment includes multiple selection pressures, many of which may be unknowable.

As for "Many thousands of generations are required for these differences to really kick in", that's highly speculative. If a mutation doesn't convey immediate advantage, there is no reason to suppose it will dominate reproduction. If it doesn't dominate reproduction, there's no reason for a given mutation to survive above others.

Irrelevance snipped. Honestly, you really don't seem to understand this, so your continued parroting of your ignorance is just idiocy on your part.

quote:


2. Evolution doesn't work by psychic eugenics. In no history did a female ape look out from her tree and say "You know, this climate is becoming rather dryer. In two millions years these forests are likely to disappear. I think I'll find a mate with longer legs to screw so my kids can walk on the ground better, then our species can start developing in the right direction!". I am going to be extremely charitable and politely point out that this theory does not have scientific consensus.
Amazing. Do you often blather on about complete irrelevancies which have nothing to do with the topic? Christ, you must be a fuckload of fun at parties.

What am I saying? You don't get invited to parties.

quote:


Yes, the mating game plays a part, but not in the way you seem to think. Most animals just try to nail anything of the opposite sex in an attempt to push out as many copies of themselves as possible.
Bollocks. Animals engage in intense competition for mates. Given that pregnancy and young rearing tends to take a female out of the mating pool for some time, it's most often the males competing for mates.

quote:

But some pair up and create families. But that's a cultural thing
Right. You're asserting culture somehow magically appeared before language. This thing you do where you try and pretend you know what the fuck you're talking about - it's not working out too well for you.

quote:

(yes, even the simple act of not eating each other and sharing food is an act of culture).
No, that's an aspect of psychology. Otherwise the human race would have cannibalised itself really early on. Christ, this should be fucking obvious.

quote:


And these cultural pressures are themselves subject to natural selection. In some situations pairing up with the strongest and most powerful mate will confer an advantage in breeding. But in other situations pairing up with a faster mate, or a smarter mate, or a mate less prone to disease, will all yield better survival chances. Applying your own particular preferences, based on your self-image, to the entirety of not only humanity but the natural world is kind of... egotistical.
You clearly don't understand how this works. Sexual selection in women is based upon picking winners. That is, they're naturally attracted to those men who dominate the tribal pyramid. Those men already have women, are already reproducing at a great rate of knots and their genes are likely to propagate. It's advantageous to get some of that dominant action because the offspring of dominant tribal members are more likely to survive.

So no, women don't engage in evolutionary analysis to decide who to fuck. They use shortcuts. And men who demonstrate social dominance or who already have women are prime examples of those shortcuts.

Now you can pretend with all your heart that this sexual selection doesn't exist, but, I'm afraid it does. Your fear of male competition doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And your whining about "male oppression" is just your way of complaining about this very phenomenon.

quote:


3. More generally, I am sure you're not only a mighty mighty macho man but also a paragon of intellect and wisdom. However, admitting mistakes or a lack of knowledge on a particular subject is not a weakness. Indeed continuing to keep on trying to pretend you know what you're talking about when it's crystal clear you don't is a sign of weakness. Believing you're right about everything in spite of all established facts working against you is a sign of megalomania. And being afraid to be seen to be wrong is a sign of massive insecurity.
Wow, your little beta ego really IS suffering some major butthurt. It's rare to see such a stream of posts designed to salvage a wounded self-image, but you're clearly reeling from being bitch slapped.

quote:


I know your ego is going to demand a manly tantrum, so have at it and get it off your chest. However this advice might serve you well in debates in the future. Best of luck to you.
Someone call the waaaahmbulance, we've got a bleeder here!




_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to Staleek)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Real male oppression, what does it look like? - 6/7/2016 5:13:39 PM   
AtUrCervix


Posts: 2111
Joined: 1/15/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

With all the dumb arguments I've read about people denying that white men tend to have an easier life I thought - hey, if I don't at least consider the opposing viewpoint then I am as bigoted, obstinate, ignorant, and stupid as the person I am accusing of being one braincell short of having two braincells. So I did what I always do, I thought about it objectively and really tried to put aside my prejudices.

And I realized, yes, there really IS male oppression in modern society. Some men do suffer merely for being men. But it's not at all in the way that the idiot masculinist movement appear to think. In fact they are huge part of the problem.

The problem is.... well... I've got to be a man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg9mWpWDKgc

Buy a gun! If someone gives you shit it is your sacred duty as a man to kick the shit out of them! So what if he has a broken beer bottle and is waving it menacingly at you, you don't want people to think you're... well... a pussy... having the female weakness of not wanting your face ripped to pieces by glass.* And don't even think about calling for the cops. If you do a bunch of real men will show up in manly uniforms and make you feel totally inadequate.

Depressed? Don't get help, that would be weak, unmanly.

Feel something weird in your butt? Don't you dare go the doctors and let someone jab a finger up there! You might turn gay!

And so on and so forth I am sure you get the picture.

Men and, more disturbingly, boys who are expected to be tough macho type males are discouraged from seeking any sort of help whether for depression, medical issues, or relationship issues. Bullying too. Modern society still, in some areas, expect boys to stand up for themselves and decides that those who do nothing are in some way deserving of being bullied.

Even in small ways I have noticed this, now I think about it. A woman broken down at the roadside will have people (normally men) pull over to assist her. A man who has broken down will have fewer offers of help. A man is expected to know what to do.

My point - men, particularly men who don't want or simply can't conform to gender stereotypes, are indeed oppressed, by other men. And the oppressors are men who are, at their core, afraid of losing masculinity and the identity of manliness. The real cowards who are terrified of an idea, an idea that being a man doesn't automatically confer strength and power.

What ya'all think?

*Now, typing this post out, I've just realized something. - "Grow some balls, pussy". One of the rhetorical weapons used in the macho culture is to call into question masculinity. To be called a woman is to be insulted. That's really quite sick, when you think about it.



A bit over the top but....generally factual.

(Regardless of what women say they believe....or pussified men want to take a stand for).

< Message edited by AtUrCervix -- 6/7/2016 5:14:30 PM >

(in reply to Staleek)
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