RE: Brexit Vote Results

RE: Brexit Vote Results (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

WhoreMods -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 12:23:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 I have a sneak that all of this is simply negotiating. Then you're mistaken. Having had Spode's gimp throwing a massive tantrum at the whole of Europe in the European Parliament (somebody has the needle because he never got that life peerage that was mentioned, I suspect) if whoever the conservatives scrap up to grasp the nettle doesn't activate article 50 (big and steampunk: it's probably made out of polished brass and covered with nautical rivets), most of the EU will be quite happy to eject us themselves at this point. Were you gazumped for a nice semi in Alderley Edge?

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 12:32:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 I have a sneak that all of this is simply negotiating. Then you're mistaken. Having had Spode's gimp throwing a massive tantrum at the whole of Europe in the European Parliament (somebody has the needle because he never got that life peerage that was mentioned, I suspect) if whoever the conservatives scrap up to grasp the nettle doesn't activate article 50 (big and steampunk: it's probably made out of polished brass and covered with nautical rivets), most of the EU will be quite happy to eject us themselves at this point. Were you gazumped for a nice semi in Alderley Edge? The number 2 is on its way, mate. Tickets please! Don't go anywhere as it's heading in your direction.

WhoreMods -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 12:39:23 PM)
Did the golf club blackball you?

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 12:47:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods Did the golf club blackball you? If by some freak of nature there is a point to your inane questions, then you need to explain. Britain's premier institution for harmless lunatics would seem to be your only option at this point in time. Is there any chance that you will post something, anything, remotely sensible; or are you in this to make a monumental cock end out of yourself?

WhoreMods -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 12:58:36 PM)
Why the issue with Alderley Edge?

blnymph -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 1:13:29 PM)
I think public opinion over here is that (almost) nobody wants the UK to leave. The only thing unpopular about Britain (EU-wise) here is Tory governments with their eternal disagreement about wanting to stay in or to get out for decades. And some might be happy to pay the price of the UK leaving to get finally rid of that nuisance for sure. There are speculations in abundance about how the UK might not leave at all despite the referendum; I think most would be relieved if Brexit would be called off by what ever. But I fear a lot of damage has been done already. The delay in invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty (remember, written into that treaty by the British government then) could just be an attempt to buy some weeks' time, and who knows, to come to senses. The consequences of the 2 years' time running out without a new agreement, meaning the UK falling back to WTO rules, will be disastrous on both sides. Just one thing: There are 30 thousand pages of laws and regulations to work on and re-negotiate - it means 40something pages per day 24/7/365 including coming to mutual agreements ... Now the Tories are telling you it may take a lot longer (I 'd agree for once) - what they seem to "forget" telling you is that a prolongation is a no-veto-decision; if any of the 27 states vetos for whatever reason, even though Germany may not be likely to, it will be the automatic end, and the UK is out without any benefits. If I were a British politician I could not imagine a weaker position for any negotiation. They got you in some REAL mess, for not settling their disputes. And all you 'll gain is, I fear, empty words. I love quotes from history (you did so above, maybe without knowing). For days I got another in my head - its history is infamous, forgive me all for that, but it fits the present situation: "Lions led by donkeys"

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 1:47:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph I think public opinion over here is that (almost) nobody wants the UK to leave. The only thing unpopular about Britain (EU-wise) here is Tory governments with their eternal disagreement about wanting to stay in or to get out for decades. And some might be happy to pay the price of the UK leaving to get finally rid of that nuisance for sure. There are speculations in abundance about how the UK might not leave at all despite the referendum; I think most would be relieved if Brexit would be called off by what ever. But I fear a lot of damage has been done already. The delay in invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty (remember, written into that treaty by the British government then) could just be an attempt to buy some weeks' time, and who knows, to come to senses. The consequences of the 2 years' time running out without a new agreement, meaning the UK falling back to WTO rules, will be disastrous on both sides. Just one thing: There are 30 thousand pages of laws and regulations to work on and re-negotiate - it means 40something pages per day 24/7/365 including coming to mutual agreements ... Now the Tories are telling you it may take a lot longer (I 'd agree for once) - what they seem to "forget" telling you is that a prolongation is a no-veto-decision; if any of the 27 states vetos for whatever reason, even though Germany may not be likely to, it will be the automatic end, and the UK is out without any benefits. If I were a British politician I could not imagine a weaker position for any negotiation. They got you in some REAL mess, for not settling their disputes. And all you 'll gain is, I fear, empty words. I love quotes from history (you did so above, maybe without knowing). For days I got another in my head - its history is infamous, forgive me all for that, but it fits the present situation: "Lions led by donkeys" The quote: "lions led by donkeys" is actually from the Crimean War. A comment Russian soldiers bestowed upon British soldiers, and I think the actual quote was: "lions led by asses". The quote: "lions led by donkeys", as cited by British commentators, sounds good but actually all of the belligerents were in the same boat. No one knew how to win such a war, and the advantage lay with the defenders, a few well placed machine guns could take care of thousands. The first nation to rush headlong into a catastrophe were the French when at the outbreak of war they merrily marched into Germany and were promptly annihilated. The Germans did the same thing at Mons. At that point we were woefully ill prepared and I don't think we even had any machine guns at that point, but the Germans just ran headlong over the fields and a small professional army, much smaller than the German Army running at them, absolutely destroyed them. Just as later in the war British soldiers were cut to pieces by the Germans who when they were dug into defensive positions. So: "lions led by donkeys" did not apply solely to the British, nor is it an appropriate way of looking at because none of them knew how to win that war: it was pretty much unchartered territory. The British don't want to leave the EU at all. Most of us want to leave the EU in its current form, but not the trade opportunities that come with it. There are two issues for us: firstly, we do not want to be part of a political and legal union; secondly, we want control over our borders. Now, whether or not the Germans and associates are prepared to say: "you can have those things", is doubtful, considering the like of Germany and France want it to be a close political union. But, those two issues are where we diverge, and I can't see Britain accepting such a close political union - and so, it will depend upon whether we can achieve further special status. Basically meaning, we want to trade with you and we will share security arrangements - but we don't want to be in a political and legal union with you. For us to be in the EU, we would have to be treated as a special case.

Marini -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 2:38:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB But there were blatant lies on both sides Peon and all along Cameron has stopped civil servants from making contingency plans. Cameron was willfully irresponsible because he’d already planned if Brexit happened, he would be legging it on the next bus out of parliament knowing he would be leaving all his cabinet traitors in disarray. As far as I’m concerned, leaving his cabinet and the rest of parliament with no plan B makes Cameron a traitor of the British people…. What an arrogant prick. I voted out because we were being mislead by a neo-liberal government who were part of the neo-liberal Union. Unfortunately you can’t have one without the other and that’s why every PM since Thatcher have towed the neo-liberal line, though none so much as Cameron and his chancellor Gideon. A united Europe, founded on the subversion of democracy sounds good but once that Union morphs into a huge cartel that enriches its shareholders, its time to stand up and say, “ENOUGH”. Why only now do we discover Cameron had asked Brussels to hold back on their proposal for the ‘Super State of Europe’ until after the referendum? A super state that would limit our independent powers by ridding us of our home grown military forces, our tax systems and our sovereign currency. Why did Cameron assure us all that the TTIP and all these other monstrous trade deals will not be going ahead when it was Cameron who was at the forefront, oiling the cogs behind this idea. TTIP is already half way there. This was the final hour and the legacy that both Cameron and Obama were going to leave office with. Why did Cameron say he was doing everything in his power to save the NHS when his government have sold off more of our NHS than any PM in the history of the NHS. If Cameron got the rest of Europe to agree to this TTIP deal then what remains of the NHS would have to be auctioned off to the highest bidder. It’s the same with schools. Education was being sold for profit and these heavily disguised trade deals would have the power to sue if we didn't rid ourselves of our social system. Whilst the EU may look like a progressive institution, its a project that has been built on deceptions with the exclusion of the meddlesome masses. The EU is nothing more than a vast neo-liberal experiment. We had to get out, not because we need more money for the NHS (we have the money) or because immigration is a problem (its not a problem) but because a hundred different flavor’s of coffee can not disguise what's happening to our country. [sm=applause.gif] Great post

blnymph -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 3:28:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 ... The British don't want to leave the EU at all. Most of us want to leave the EU in its current form, but not the trade opportunities that come with it. There are two issues for us: firstly, we do not want to be part of a political and legal union; secondly, we want control over our borders. Now, whether or not the Germans and associates are prepared to say: "you can have those things", is doubtful, considering the like of Germany and France want it to be a close political union. ... Just the core of the dilemma in a few sentences. And the problem you are in - you do not get those things by leaving. If "control over our borders" with "trade opportunities" combined should mean the limitation of entrance of anybody non-British to the UK but free cross-border movement of goods and services you will not get these both together, not because it is against EU treaties but also against all inner-european free trade agreements that existed before and exist aside (EFTA). WTO is all you could get under these circumstances, and it means no free movement of goods and services either. No bad will from Germany, France or the other 25, all these rules were never secret, the UK signed and agreed those treaties decades ago. What they promised you is not achievable by leaving the EU. And it also has nothing at all to do with a closer political and legal union or not - we all know we are still far far far from it. We haven't even managed to get EU standards for electrical plugs and sockets yet ... and we might all agree that these are not the most urgent issues.

Staleek -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 4:20:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph Just the core of the dilemma in a few sentences. And the problem you are in - you do not get those things by leaving. This was pointed out during the referendum by many. Mostly experts. But as Gove said "The British people are fed up of experts", to which he got a rapturous applause, which pretty much sums this mess up. I think a big part of the problem the UK (and USA) currently face is a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism. Whether it's facts about leaving a major trading organization, facts about Muslims not all being psychotic murderers, or facts about global warming and the human involvement in it there is a large swathe of the population which will just instinctively go the opposite way from these facts even if - especially if - these facts come from the mouths or pens of "experts". I hope the EU leaders keep their nerve and do not give the UK any concessions. We need to either accept the free movement of goods and people or be denied access to it. If they back down on that they could end up with far-right loonballs in their own nations getting ideas about leaving.

Politesub53 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 4:53:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: You know I have always been centre right, and often centre left come to that. How you can call a link to a Commons report, turgid pipe dreams, explains why the far left wont ever get elected. That you could dismiss a report from all sides of the referendum debate, including the SNP, shows me more than I need to know about how the far left works. Are you serious? That's akin to the 'duck and cover' plans they had in case of nuclear attack back in the 50s. As for your being 'centre right and often centre left' - yes, I had come to think of you as that. But you've sold off that, apparently, for what is undeniably radical-right agenda, now. I mean, really, it's gobsmacking. I've actually developed a respect and even fondness for that centrist, cautious 'better the devil you know' strain amongst conservatives. Now, it seems to have buggered off entirely amongst some of what I thought were its adherents. Why ? Is it just because i didnt vote the same way as you ?

blnymph -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 4:56:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Staleek quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph Just the core of the dilemma in a few sentences. And the problem you are in - you do not get those things by leaving. This was pointed out during the referendum by many. Mostly experts. ... I hope the EU leaders keep their nerve and do not give the UK any concessions. We need to either accept the free movement of goods and people or be denied access to it. If they back down on that they could end up with far-right loonballs in their own nations getting ideas about leaving. It does not need much expertise - I am not an expert either. Just a bit of time spent to read some admittedly very dry treaty texts (easily and freely available these days), and putting things from different paragraphs together. And these texts also do not leave much for negotiation for the remaining 27 EU leaders, although they 'll be blamed for whatever for sure in due time.

Politesub53 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 5:00:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods If Blair hadn't gone fawning and grovelling after Bush II like a slave in Game Of Thrones, he might be a lot better remembered now: apart from anything else he wouldn't have got the London underground and a few buses bombed, and driven a specialist to suicide by inventing evidence that Iraq might possibly have a WMD or two that the UN inspectors had missed. Ron: you do not want Theresa May as the English PM: that cunt makes Thatcher look like Nye Bevin. She's even worse than Nicola Sturgeon. But a better bet than Gove or Corbyn.

Politesub53 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 5:06:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods Why the issue with Alderley Edge? I was at Eton with Alderley, lovely chap.

Dvr22999874 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/30/2016 5:17:46 PM)
I went to Eton too..............................I delivered groceries there.

PeonForHer -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/1/2016 4:27:27 AM)
quote: The EU is nothing more than a vast neo-liberal experiment. We had to get out, not because we need more money for the NHS (we have the money) or because immigration is a problem (its not a problem) but because a hundred different flavor’s of coffee can not disguise what's happening to our country. It's a vast neo-liberal experiment - but a lot more besides. I won't quibble - It's a long way from perfect. But ... now? There's no way we can disguise what's happening to our country now, either - and right now I do feel that things will be much, much worse. I'd be happy to be proven wrong ... but, well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating we'll be doing from now on.

PeonForHer -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/1/2016 4:30:32 AM)
quote: Why ? Is it just because i didnt vote the same way as you ? Come on, PS. You voted for radical change. And it seems to be happening PDQ, too - even before we've finally left the EU (should that actually happen). This tactic you're using of deflecting every point by claiming some version of 'You're looking down on me like a typical elitist Bremainer' - it was thin enough to start with, never mind now.

tweakabelle -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/1/2016 7:34:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 There are two issues for us: firstly, we do not want to be part of a political and legal union; secondly, we want control over our borders. Now, whether or not the Germans and associates are prepared to say: "you can have those things", is doubtful, considering the like of Germany and France want it to be a close political union. But, those two issues are where we diverge, and I can't see Britain accepting such a close political union - and so, it will depend upon whether we can achieve further special status. Basically meaning, we want to trade with you and we will share security arrangements - but we don't want to be in a political and legal union with you. For us to be in the EU, we would have to be treated as a special case. Yes the issue for Europeans was that the UK wanted to be treated as a special case and the Europeans were unwilling to do that. From my very distant observation post, in practical terms, it seems that means three, not two outstanding issues: 1. The UK wanted control of their borders; 2. The UK wished to decline to be part of a political and legal union; and 3. The UK wanted free and unfettered access to the markets of Europe on special terms. The EU insisted that there was a price to paid for point #3 and that price included the free movement of labour throughout the EU, no exceptions thank you very much. The EU saw the UK position as one of wanting it both ways. From an EU perspective, it is very difficult for the EU to compromise on the free movement of labour principle - it would be opening a Pandora's box, with who knows how many other EU members also seeking special terms should one member succeed in obtaining them. It now turns out that Brexit may not guarantee the UK the absolute control over its borders and immigration that the Leave side insisted it would. So it seems that all Brexit will definitely achieve is point 2, though the advantages enjoyed by the UK through declining to be part of something that doesn't exist at the moment escape me. Should a political and legal union come into being in the future, it could only include the UK with the UK's consent. It is also the case that the UK is itself a political and legal union. So the UK is no stranger to political and legal unions, though it seems happier with such unions only if they are dominated by the English. The UK is already part of NATO, so the question of a security union is to a large extent already resolved. So I am far from clear about what exactly has been achieved by the Brexit vote. I suspect that the UK is going to pay a very heavy price for an EU-exit with little on the upside to make those costs more palatable. Perhaps I am missing something ...?

vincentML -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/1/2016 1:36:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: The EU is nothing more than a vast neo-liberal experiment. We had to get out, not because we need more money for the NHS (we have the money) or because immigration is a problem (its not a problem) but because a hundred different flavor’s of coffee can not disguise what's happening to our country. It's a vast neo-liberal experiment - but a lot more besides. I won't quibble - It's a long way from perfect. But ... now? There's no way we can disguise what's happening to our country now, either - and right now I do feel that things will be much, much worse. I'd be happy to be proven wrong ... but, well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating we'll be doing from now on. The EU has no exclusivity on the "vast neoliberal experiment." It seems that the experiment has led to a terrible unequal distribution of wealth (although one cannot discount the effects of automation as well. As I understand the claim, the States are producing our highest amount of steel with one tenth the work force of the '50s) So, is neoliberalism a failed experiment? or as Obama said yesterday, an inextricable reality? If the former, why continue it? If the latter how can it be improved before the working class come out with their pitchforks? Seriously, manufacturing labor has taken a beating these past three or four decades.

vincentML -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/1/2016 1:44:45 PM)
quote: The EU insisted that there was a price to paid for point #3 and that price included the free movement of labour throughout the EU, no exceptions thank you very much. Will someone please explain the connection between this and point #3? I was of the opinion that the leave voters had an immigration concern, so why would they insist on the free movement of labour. I thought the latter was already status quo. A bit confused. Thanks.

Page: << < prev 29 30 [31] 32 33 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

5.859375E-02