RE: Brexit Vote Results (Full Version)

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MariaB -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 6:47:54 AM)

Thanks Bounty, I will take a look at the link.




mnottertail -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 6:52:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

sorry there comrade, socialism roughly falls under a collectivist umbrella.

quote:

Collectivists usually focus on community, society, or nation. It is used and has been used as an element in many different and diverse types of government and political, economic and educational philosophies throughout history, ranging from communalism, democracy, monarchy, and socialism....socialism, as a political and economic theory, draws more from collectivism than it does from individualism...


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Collectivism

as such, its legitimate to ask how the socialists actually voted, and how they understand the collective EU as being less desirable (seemingly) than an individual UK.

go harass someone else.



Sorry my Bolshevik nutsucker friend, you are assigning dingleberries to collectivism which are non-extant.

Collectivism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology, or social outlook that emphasizes the significance of groups—their identities, goals, rights, outcomes, etc.—and tends to analyze issues in those terms.

This is not the 'every dudes my brother, every chicks my sister, non-rational shit that nutsuckers who don't know the first thing about it make it out to be.

The English workingman, the English farmer are woven into their identity with centuries of history, they aint bleedin krauts, they aint frogs, and they aint greeks. they feel entitled to their own rights, as a group, not the rights of the world, their perception of best outcome, not the outcome of the corporate masters of the nutsucker whores. Their goals and their self enrichment and their life, not the life of some corporate EU, their best outcome as they perceive it is for them to be nationalists, do their work for their country for their country and their peers benefit.

They collectivise their efforts for their benefit, not for the benefit of corporations. They are like corporations in that respect, but these people have a soul and are held to the law, neither of which corporations are.

Collectivists usually focus on community, society, or nation. <<<<<<<<< Uhhhhhh, you linked that. Your comprehension of such a simple sentence failing so epically, that it is laughable. I am not harassing you, simply pointing out that you are wholly unknowlegeable in any of these matters.





MariaB -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 6:55:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

No. They're not. Claiming that free marketeers and capitalists are all parastites feeding on the common man is as absurd as saying all Muslims are terrorists.

The laptop you are typing on? The monitor you are looking at? The smartphone in your pocket? Creations of capitalism. The rush to create something new and different. The advancement of technology and human progress.

And other, more left-wing, aspets of modern life? Decent working conditions? Better medical technology? Free movement of people and the ability to head off to another country, in a safe flying contraption, settle and work there? All of that is due to globalization and the free market.

The good old days of working down a mining pit like your father and your fathers father and your fathers fathers father are also long gone. People start out and, whilst it is difficult, as long as you're reasonably connected from a young age you can be a doctor, or a lawyer, or a politician, or a professor. Of course a lot of people fall through the cracks, and we need socialism to help address that, but denying the free market and capitalism hasn't improved life for humankind is obviously wrong.


Of course its improved people's lives and so long as it doesn't morph into something that exploits the working man, then its all good.
The only way we can keep out the negatives that have a tendency to walk hand in hand with capitalism is, by keeping the right to look at the blueprint. We want a free market but we want that free market to work within the principles of a democracy and this is where the EU have failed.

When a government turns its back on the working poor and refuses to further engage with them and when the big tent no longer sees it their duty to inform the masses of the goings on within the Union, then its time for the masses to speak out. They tried to sell us the TTIP project as some fantastic new trade deal but didn't mention we would lose protection around workers rights and that the multinational cartels would be moving in and buying out what’s left of our education and health systems. If it wasn’t for people like Snowden and Wikileaks, we’d still be as ignorant as the EU and our neo-liberal government want us to be.

The tightly shut doors of the European parliament have been moving us further and further away from democracy and towards something that looks suspiciously like totalitarianism.





mnottertail -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 7:05:19 AM)

BTW I dont think TUSC is a big runner in the UK.




bounty44 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 7:17:55 AM)

quote:

The positive argument for joining the EU tends to be made by the liberal and center-left. For them, the EU is a fundamentally benign institution ("although of course it is not perfect") which has helped prevent war in Western Europe since 1945, established rights for workers and citizens, and regulated the impact of businesses on health and the environment...

the EU sets certain "minimum" and "adequate" conditions for worker's rights (these are the actual words used in the legislation). In many cases, however, these rights were fought for and won before states joined the EU--including the UK...

But even where the EU has passed potentially useful legislation--like, for example, the Working Time Directive (WTD)--it always comes with opt-out clauses that unorganized or weak groups of workers can be forced to sign for fear of losing their jobs. The WTD hasn't helped the junior doctors in England who are currently striking for, among other things, a reduction in their hours.

More generally, the EU has not prevented attacks on workers by the Hungarian and Polish governments, nor is it preventing the French state from attacking workers at the moment. Indeed, one of the ways in which the EU is helpful to neoliberal governments is precisely because the latter can use the EU's rules on competition and so on as an excuse for doing what they would have done anyway.

But the problem is not simply that the EU is a weak or nonexistent shield. It has led the onslaught on wages and conditions in Southern Europe--above all in Greece.

When this is pointed out to EU enthusiasts--some of whom claim to be internationalists--they tend to respond by saying that, since the UK is not in the eurozone, it would not be subject to the same treatment. But surely as internationalists, we should want to put an end to an institution which has caused such suffering to so many people, rather than smugly reflect on the protection that Britain's semi-detached status affords it?

At this point, the question of EU "reform" is usually raised ("We must stay in to change it"). But the EU is structurally incapable of reform. Why?...

In 1939, Freidrich von Hayek wrote an article in which he argued that "Interstate Federalism" at the European level would be desirable. Why? Mainly because it would ensure that economic activity should be removed as far as possible from the responsibility of meddling politicians who interfered with the market order to win electoral support from ignorant voters.

Consciously or not, the EU followed Hayek's advice by centralizing power in the hands of appointed officials, above all in the Commission, which alone has the power to initiate legislation, three types of which--regulations, directives and decisions--are binding. The parliament has a right to be consulted, in certain circumstances, but none to initiate legislation in its own right. In this respect, it has far less power than any national government--or for that matter, even any devolved government like the Scottish or Catalan.

But this is not the only democratic deficit. If the Commission is a supranational body, the European Council is an intergovernmental one. It consists of the heads of state or heads of government of the member states, who are, of course, elected in their own countries, but not by the inhabitants of the other countries whose fate the Council decides. It proceeds by "consensus"--in other words what is acceptable to France and German axis, and increasingly, to Germany alone. No votes are conducted or minutes taken, and decisions are signaled by the President arriving at a "conclusion."

These structures are one reason why we should reject claims that the EU is as amenable to reform as any nation-state. In fact, it is much less so...

[much more follows, too much to copy/paste]

Is Remain the "Lesser Evil"?

Many socialists would agree with most, if not all of this, but still argue that we have to vote for Remain purely on contingent grounds: Namely, that a majority vote for Leave will only strengthen the hard right--not so much the actual fascists of British National Party, but the UK Independence Party (UKIP) and the euro-skeptic wing of the Conservative Party, and their media loudhailers in the Murdoch press and other right-wing newspapers.

As a result, the argument for remaining in the EU most commonly expressed by members of the radical left is essentially a negative one. As they correctly point out, the main drive for withdrawal from the EU has historically come from the hard right, and the UKIP popularized this position by focusing on the question of national sovereignty--specifically by highlighting the inability of the UK to control its borders in the face of supposedly unlimited migration either from within or, in the case of refugees, via the EU.

The success of UKIP in turn emboldened the euro-skeptics within the Conservative Party. The referendum is therefore only happening in response to pressure from these forces, and the campaign for exit is being conducted according to their racist agenda. If there is a majority vote to leave, the argument goes, it will immediately mean that non-UK citizens and their families from the EU who currently have right of residence here face the danger of expulsion or, at the very least, will face a much more precarious situation.

Left-wing campaigners can also point to the way in which the official Leave campaign has unleashed a poisonous racism and xenophobia into British politics, regardless of the result. One horrifying result of this seems to have been the fatal assault on pro-Remain Labour MP Jo Cox on June 16, by a man with a history of both mental illness and association with far right--who apparently shouted "Britain First" as he attacked Cox and who later gave his name in court as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain."

In this context, voting to remain, while not necessarily leading to any positive result, would at least avoid a negative one: It is the "lesser evil."

[again, too much more to copy/paste but what follows is insightful and close to what you were saying maria]

The EU organizes a section of the international ruling class, not the working class. As Trotsky once wrote in another context, a brake cannot be used as an accelerator. There are no EU-wide political parties or trade unions or movements.

In any case, solidarity across borders does not depend on constitutions or institutions, but on the willingness of workers to support each other, even if in separate countries. The struggle against neoliberal capitalism is unlikely to begin simultaneously across the whole of the EU, or to be confined within its boundaries.

What we are likely to see is an uneven series of movements of different intensities, within different nation-states which, if victorious, could form new alliance and ultimately a United Socialist States of Europe. But that will involve destroying the EU and replacing it with institutions that represent our interests and not those of our ruling classes.


I think what im seeing, in rough form is, the idea of an EU was/is desirable, but it was not working out the way the socialists would have liked.




mnottertail -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 7:56:23 AM)

and that might be, but socialists didnt vote it out, they are not that big in the UK. I am betting it was more pensioners than socialists.




bounty44 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 8:47:21 AM)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/23/brexit-exit-polls-dont-hold-your-breath/




MariaB -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 9:08:28 AM)

It was the old people who voted us out,
It was all those peasants who live outside London
It was white men who read the Daily Mail
It was 17.5 million biggoted stupid twats...

There is only one person to blame for this and that person is the man who decided to gamble our future to secure his position in his own party. David Cameron should go down as the most dangerous, most reckless PM this country has ever seen and yet all we seem to be getting is people misdirecting their insults at the voters.




mnottertail -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 9:18:06 AM)

LOL, I dont know about that LB (as I have described it, is England and Wales) looking at the vote by area, it is the Great Grimpen Mire of outstate London what did you in, in a big way.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/24/this-map-shows-britains-striking-geographical-divide-over-brexit/
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


Cameron's being a thrupendy bit whore notwithstanding.




MariaB -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 9:23:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
I think what im seeing, in rough form is, the idea of an EU was/is desirable, but it was not working out the way the socialists would have liked.



It wasn’t working out for the classical conservatives, it wasn’t working out for the liberal democrats or the democratic socialists. It was working for our neo-liberal government to remain within a neo-liberal Union.

Susan George wrote; neo-liberals have built this highly efficient ideological cadre because they understand what the Italian Marxist thinker Antonio Gramsci was talking about when he developed the concept of cultural hegemony. If you can occupy people’s heads, their hearts and their hands will follow. The ideological and promotional work of the neoliberal right has been absolutely brilliant. They have spent hundreds of millions but the result has been worth every penny to them because they have made neo-liberalism seem as if it were the natural and normal condition of humankind. No matter how many disasters of all kinds the neo-liberal system has visibly created, no matter what financial crisis it may engender, no matter how many losers and outcasts it may create, it is still made to seem inevitable like an act of God, the only possible economic and social order available to us.

http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/econ101/neoliberalismhist




WickedsDesire -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 9:23:40 AM)

Zoroastrian a word ive only come across two people using in my life including you Musicmystery

Zoroastrianism,[n 1] or more natively Mazdayasna,[1] is one of the world's oldest religions, "combining a cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique... among the major religions of the world."[2] Ascribed to the teachings of the Iranian Prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra),[3] he exalted their deity of wisdom, Ahura Mazda, (Wise Lord) as its Supreme Being.[4] Leading characteristics, such as messianism, heaven and hell, and free will influenced other religious systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Christianity, and Islam.[5] With possible roots dating back to the second millennium BCE, Zoroastrianism enters recorded history in the 5th-century BCE,[4] and including a Mithraic Median prototype and Zurvanist Sassanid successor it served as the state religion of the pre-Islamic Iranian empires from around 600 BCE to 650 CE. Zoroastrianism was suppressed from the 7th century onwards following the Muslim conquest of Persia.[6] Recent estimates place the current number of Zoroastrians at around 2.6 million, with most living in India and Iran.[7][8][n 2] Besides the Zoroastrian diaspora, the older Mithraic faith Yazdânism is still practised amongst the Kurds.[n 3]


When the world had become overwhelmed by the constant multiplication of its immortal beings, Ahura Mazda (see Ahura Mazda) decided that the earth must be enlarged and a new beginning made. He warned the faithful king Yima (see Yima, Zoroastrian Cosmogony) that a great flood was coming to cleanse the world and that Yima had to protect himself and two of each species in his castle on top of the highest mountain. The flood came, and the world, except for Yima's castle and its inhabitants, was destroyed. When the flood passed, Yima opened his doors and the world was inhabited again.


Good stuff eh and sound familiar




blnymph -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 10:22:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

...

The tightly shut doors of the European parliament have been moving us further and further away from democracy and towards something that looks suspiciously like totalitarianism.




What it that supposed to mean? "tightly shut doors" ... ?
... have you ever been there?




NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 10:47:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:



this - is the massive shit-storm being kicked up by left wing nutcases who simply refuse to accept that they lost.



quote:


Of course, the driving force behind this angst is the left's refusal to accept that their socialist utopia is a fucking pipe dream.



The Yes campaign, to retain Britain’s EU membership, was dominated by both the Conservative and Labour leaderships. To add to the confusion, the right and the left split over which way they should vote. On the left, it was the socialists who campaigned against retaining its EU membership and so why you are both under the illusion that the socialist voted to remain in is rather baffling. The socialist voters are elated.




maria that seems very counterintuitive to the collectivist bent of socialists. do you have some exit polling information from the vote that shows that? and/or that elaborates on such a seeming paradoxical occurrence?



Maria is not quite right when she says: "socialists are elated". Not that we have any socialists anymore, they were culled back in the '80s.

But, I think she is talking about the left. The left vote was spilt.

But, there is a very good reason for the left to vote for leaving the EU, and that is migration of labour from poorer parts of Europe circumventing centuries of hard won worker rights.







NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 10:57:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

It was the old people who voted us out,
It was all those peasants who live outside London
It was white men who read the Daily Mail
It was 17.5 million biggoted stupid twats...

There is only one person to blame for this and that person is the man who decided to gamble our future to secure his position in his own party. David Cameron should go down as the most dangerous, most reckless PM this country has ever seen and yet all we seem to be getting is people misdirecting their insults at the voters.



Why is it that all of the arseholes in our country appear to post on this message board?

It is a quirk of fate that is inexplicable at this point.

But, if someone could let me know how and why all of our arseholes gravitated to this board I would be interested.

The way you lot are carrying on it wouldn't surprise me if you're one person with numerous profiles and posting out of Broadmoor.




Staleek -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 10:59:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:



this - is the massive shit-storm being kicked up by left wing nutcases who simply refuse to accept that they lost.



quote:


Of course, the driving force behind this angst is the left's refusal to accept that their socialist utopia is a fucking pipe dream.



The Yes campaign, to retain Britain’s EU membership, was dominated by both the Conservative and Labour leaderships. To add to the confusion, the right and the left split over which way they should vote. On the left, it was the socialists who campaigned against retaining its EU membership and so why you are both under the illusion that the socialist voted to remain in is rather baffling. The socialist voters are elated.




maria that seems very counterintuitive to the collectivist bent of socialists. do you have some exit polling information from the vote that shows that? and/or that elaborates on such a seeming paradoxical occurrence?



Maria is not quite right when she says: "socialists are elated". Not that we have any socialists anymore, they were culled back in the '80s.

But, I think she is talking about the left. The left vote was spilt.

But, there is a very good reason for the left to vote for leaving the EU, and that is migration of labour from poorer parts of Europe circumventing centuries of hard won worker rights.





Sorry but that is Daily Mail bullshit again. EU citizens have the same rights. Migration wasn't causing and damage as they are still subject to the same pay and condition rules.




NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 11:07:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:



this - is the massive shit-storm being kicked up by left wing nutcases who simply refuse to accept that they lost.



quote:


Of course, the driving force behind this angst is the left's refusal to accept that their socialist utopia is a fucking pipe dream.



The Yes campaign, to retain Britain’s EU membership, was dominated by both the Conservative and Labour leaderships. To add to the confusion, the right and the left split over which way they should vote. On the left, it was the socialists who campaigned against retaining its EU membership and so why you are both under the illusion that the socialist voted to remain in is rather baffling. The socialist voters are elated.




maria that seems very counterintuitive to the collectivist bent of socialists. do you have some exit polling information from the vote that shows that? and/or that elaborates on such a seeming paradoxical occurrence?



Maria is not quite right when she says: "socialists are elated". Not that we have any socialists anymore, they were culled back in the '80s.

But, I think she is talking about the left. The left vote was spilt.

But, there is a very good reason for the left to vote for leaving the EU, and that is migration of labour from poorer parts of Europe circumventing centuries of hard won worker rights.





Sorry but that is Daily Mail bullshit again. EU citizens have the same rights. Migration wasn't causing and damage as they are still subject to the same pay and condition rules.



You really are a monumental fuckin' fool.

Go and read about the history of the politics which you claim to support. The very same people who were vehemently opposed to our entry into the European Common Market back in the '70s for the very same reason that I have stated.

Until you do that, stop wasting my time.




NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 11:13:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1


...
The British don't want to leave the EU at all. Most of us want to leave the EU in its current form, but not the trade opportunities that come with it.

There are two issues for us: firstly, we do not want to be part of a political and legal union; secondly, we want control over our borders. Now, whether or not the Germans and associates are prepared to say: "you can have those things", is doubtful, considering the like of Germany and France want it to be a close political union.
...


Just the core of the dilemma in a few sentences. And the problem you are in - you do not get those things by leaving.
If "control over our borders" with "trade opportunities" combined should mean the limitation of entrance of anybody non-British to the UK but free cross-border movement of goods and services you will not get these both together, not because it is against EU treaties but also against all inner-european free trade agreements that existed before and exist aside (EFTA). WTO is all you could get under these circumstances, and it means no free movement of goods and services either.

No bad will from Germany, France or the other 25, all these rules were never secret, the UK signed and agreed those treaties decades ago. What they promised you is not achievable by leaving the EU. And it also has nothing at all to do with a closer political and legal union or not - we all know we are still far far far from it. We haven't even managed to get EU standards for electrical plugs and sockets yet ... and we might all agree that these are not the most urgent issues.




Standardised sockets are the last thing I think of before I go to bed and the first thing I think of when I wake up, and until we get the fuckers I will not rest.

You will of course have to fall into line with our sockets.

Apart from that, we either come to agreement that we don't want to be and never will be like you, or we go our separate ways. And, that was always the case.






NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 11:17:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and that might be, but socialists didnt vote it out, they are not that big in the UK. I am betting it was more pensioners than socialists.



It was an unlikely coalition of conservatives from the rural shires and working class Labour voters. Probably the first time in English political history that these two groups have seen eye to eye.





NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 11:29:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1

There are two issues for us: firstly, we do not want to be part of a political and legal union; secondly, we want control over our borders. Now, whether or not the Germans and associates are prepared to say: "you can have those things", is doubtful, considering the like of Germany and France want it to be a close political union.

But, those two issues are where we diverge, and I can't see Britain accepting such a close political union - and so, it will depend upon whether we can achieve further special status. Basically meaning, we want to trade with you and we will share security arrangements - but we don't want to be in a political and legal union with you.

For us to be in the EU, we would have to be treated as a special case.

Yes the issue for Europeans was that the UK wanted to be treated as a special case and the Europeans were unwilling to do that.

From my very distant observation post, in practical terms, it seems that means three, not two outstanding issues:
1. The UK wanted control of their borders;
2. The UK wished to decline to be part of a political and legal union; and
3. The UK wanted free and unfettered access to the markets of Europe on special terms.
The EU insisted that there was a price to paid for point #3 and that price included the free movement of labour throughout the EU, no exceptions thank you very much. The EU saw the UK position as one of wanting it both ways. From an EU perspective, it is very difficult for the EU to compromise on the free movement of labour principle - it would be opening a Pandora's box, with who knows how many other EU members also seeking special terms should one member succeed in obtaining them.

It now turns out that Brexit may not guarantee the UK the absolute control over its borders and immigration that the Leave side insisted it would. So it seems that all Brexit will definitely achieve is point 2, though the advantages enjoyed by the UK through declining to be part of something that doesn't exist at the moment escape me. Should a political and legal union come into being in the future, it could only include the UK with the UK's consent.

It is also the case that the UK is itself a political and legal union. So the UK is no stranger to political and legal unions, though it seems happier with such unions only if they are dominated by the English. The UK is already part of NATO, so the question of a security union is to a large extent already resolved.

So I am far from clear about what exactly has been achieved by the Brexit vote. I suspect that the UK is going to pay a very heavy price for an EU-exit with little on the upside to make those costs more palatable. Perhaps I am missing something ...?



Pretty much.

And, I think your query surrounds the fact that our history is not their history.

That is the great stumbling block.

So, while they can't fathom why we would not want a centralised state governing over millions; we can't fathom why they would want such a thing.

They believe it's in the interests of peace; we believe it is dangerous.

For us to accept their view that the answer lies in the few governing over millions we would have to have a re-awakening of centuries old values, tradition, history etc.

Can't happen.

The only way out is if they accept our position that we're not like them and allow us to cherry-pick the bits that we agree with. Unlikely. Although as I say it appears to me that a lot of comments are being made for public consumption by British and German politicians which appear to leave the door open for compromise.




bounty44 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/2/2016 11:35:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1
It was an unlikely coalition of conservatives from the rural shires and working class Labour voters. Probably the first time in English political history that these two groups have seen eye to eye.


that is reminding me of a scene from an old 80s (I think) movie called the rocketeer where the fbi and the mafia find themselves side by side fighting Nazis.




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