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RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 4:31:46 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Why ? Is it just because i didnt vote the same way as you ?

Come on, PS. You voted for radical change. And it seems to be happening PDQ, too - even before we've finally left the EU (should that actually happen). This tactic you're using of deflecting every point by claiming some version of 'You're looking down on me like a typical elitist Bremainer' - it was thin enough to start with, never mind now.

I have never accused you of looking down on me, just posed a simple question for you.

Hey, the funny thing is the EU is centre right, I am centre right, and want out. Figure that one out.

Its not hard, the reasons can be found in the prick that is Manfred Bremmer. What gets me is the left want another go at a referendum, as they lost a democratic vote, so you can remain in the EU where there is no real democracy. Care to explain that little conundrum ?

There is also clamour for an end to this farce right across Europe, from parties on either side of the isle. For Neo Liberal you need to read liberal elite acting for big business. Hardly a trade deal goes by without erosion of one or another workers right (Thanks America). Whats happening right now in Fance being a prime example. Even in the UK going back to before Thatcher, workers rights were given on one hand and slyly taken back with the other. Zero hours contracts wtf is that all about except to allow the use of cheap labour. The EU labour markets, far from being good for workers rights, are in a race to the bottom.

And you wonder why I want out.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 621

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 5:08:23 PM

Politesub53

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Vincent. The leave campaign wanted a reformed market that didnt involve conditions other than trade. At present the EU insist on any kid of deal we get, free movement of labour has to stay.

David Cameron, when he tried to negotiate change, wanted a deal on this but was given short shrift. I think if he had been listened to the remain campaign would have won. The whole problem with the EU technocrats is twofold, firstly they dont listen to the electorate of Europe as a whole, secondly many of them are appointed and not elected. Therefore we have no way to vote them out. It is an undemocratic nightmare and wrong beyond belief.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 622

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 5:30:10 PM

Dvr22999874

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Was there ever a referendum to go INTO the EU ? Or did the politicians of the day just take it upon themselves to go " full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes ?"
It's a long time since I left UK, or since I took any great interest in her doings, but I think I would have voted to leave if I had been there and then wait to see how the cards fell. I will admit though, there are very good points to be made for both sides of the argument.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 623

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 5:37:59 PM

Lucylastic

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common market referendum to the EEC was in 75.

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Post #: 624

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 6:48:37 PM

Dvr22999874

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Thanks Lucy................who got to vote in that referendum ? Was it a British thing or was it all-European ?

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Post #: 625

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 7:31:04 PM

Awareness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Read the link and learn. It is from an unbiased commons committee. The "sun" dig was me yanking a few left wing chains.

Can't be arsed, old chum. Turgid pipe-dreams.

Hey, whatever *did* happen to your cautious conservatism? You've bought into a radical change in society - yet it was people like me who voted 'Bremain' mainly out of a gut sense of 'preserve what you've got'. Screwy, really, isn't it - you going radical and me going conservative?

You know I have always been centre right, and often centre left come to that.

How you can call a link to a Commons report, turgid pipe dreams, explains why the far left wont ever get elected. That you could dismiss a report from all sides of the referendum debate, including the SNP, shows me more than I need to know about how the far left works.

Let me state here and now, if we had a truly Social and Democratic Party, more akin to centrist policies and removed from the normal far left, far right dogma, they would get my vote every time.

So when it comes to UK Elections the famous lady once announced "There is no alternative" mores the pity eh.

I think part of the issue here - and Peon turning himself inside out trying to redefine democracy is an example of this - is the massive shit-storm being kicked up by left wing nutcases who simply refuse to accept that they lost.

The EU has always been a mechanism for the enrichment of corporations and specific countries and interest groups. UK businesses and farmers had to suck it up while the French farmers simply revolted and took to the streets every time they didn't get what they wanted. The elimination of borders allowed the corporations to use low-paid workers from shit-holes like Poland to apply downward pressure on wages for everyone EU-wide. This resulted in companies like Amazon building warehouses in depressed areas like Swansea and exploiting the living shit out of workers with no repercussions whatsoever.

Of course, the driving force behind this angst is the left's refusal to accept that their socialist utopia is a fucking pipe dream. They somewhat naively think that the EU superstate is the mechanism by which this ideal will be realised and - as is typical of socialists - have absolutely no compunction about employing totalitarian means to do so. One would think one murderous socialist regime was enough, but no... apparently the left really does believe the end justifies the means. Which is why they're frantically trying to redefine a loss as a win and are making all sorts of outrageous claims which hold no water whatsoever.

They are, as usual, comprehensively full of shit. And - as Orwell pointed out - dangerously full of shit.

The hysterical screaming about the stock market is a demonstration of the kind of idiotic naivety that these morons possess. Let me explain something: Do you know why people are yelling about the stock market going down? BECAUSE THEY FUCKING WANT IT TO GO DOWN YOU FUCKING IDIOTS! THEY'VE SHORTED IT AND STAND TO MAKE A KILLING IF YOU BELIEVE THEM.

It's at this point - and not for the first time - that I'm driven to comment: Christ people are stupid.

Fortunately, nationalism is on the upswing and while the socialist nutcases might be keen to lose their cultural identity, it seems a good many Britons are not. Good on them, I say.

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Post #: 626

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 7:32:56 PM

Awareness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Control of an organization or group by the majority of its members: <<<< IN YOUR LINK.

Stop being a pinhead, PS. Control does not mean dictatorship.

It means democracy, as per your link. If you dont like the link you shouldnt have posted it <grins>

Apparently democracy isn't democracy when you lose. No doubt this is according to the ancient Greek tradition.

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Post #: 627

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 7:35:46 PM

Awareness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I sincerely believe the end of neo-liberalism is on the horizon Jeff.

We can only fucking hope. What a cluster-fuck.

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Post #: 628

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 7:38:20 PM

Awareness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Fair point, well made.

I always have a chuckle at his name, I expect he shortened it from MacCapaldi for the stage.

I miss Malcolm Tucker - although I hear he's made a fine Doctor.

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Post #: 629

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 8:53:12 PM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Oh I think YOU should visit the UK at the moment, you might just have a bit of a nice surprise...

I think you are completely wrong LC! No hate crimes has been commited against a Singaporean yet. If it was, believe me, it would be all over our media. UK is a popular destination for Singaporeans.
I think the left media is fear mongering about Brexit, adding unnecessary racism motives to it.

Malaysians and Singaporeans living in the United Kingdom (UK) say that they have not experienced any post-Brexit racist or xenophobic abuse

While reports of hate crimes have risen 57 per cent in the aftermath of the European Union (EU) referendum vote, most Malaysians and Singaporeans spoken to said that they had only read about these incidences on social media or in the news.

Malaysian Toh Eu-Wing, a doctor who lives in Nottingham, said that he worries for his family and friends despite having no such troubling encounters in the city, which had voted to leave the EU.

Singaporean Eric Tan said that he was still processing his shock at how the nation voted and although he would never feel unwelcome in London – “a city defined by diversity” – he nevertheless felt affected by the results.

“I stepped out on the streets and I didn’t feel any different, but I would say emotionally it felt like I had been hurt. Hurt to know that there are more people than not who felt that they have an issue with immigrants in the country, because that was probably the biggest point put out by the Leave Campaign,” he said.

She said that she lived in a very multicultural environment and, as such, was not too concerned about being directly affected by the hate crimes currently being reported.

In Coventry, Malaysians Farhana Abdul Fatah and Josephine Phang said they had not experienced anything negative post-Brexit, although both said they felt more wary than usual.

But I remember going to the local shops again on a Sunday, and having felt like things had gone back to normal. I guess although some people might see the Brexit as license to be less hospitable, there are so many others who really don’t mind the presence of foreigners. This was a comforting belief, especially knowing that the majority of Coventry voted (to) Leave.

Other Singaporeans interviewed also said that while they were appalled and disgusted by the hate crimes reported against minorities so far, they felt the animosity was generally not targeted at them.

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/surge-in-post-brexit-hate-crimes-worries-083612139.html

And since you look white to me, and you got punched despite being white, it's clearly not a racism thing. That poor MP who got stabbed was white too.
I don't think minorities are actually being targeted.

I think those who voted Leave just wanted their culture to be preserved and not eroded, and they would welcome any immigrants who do not try to impose their culture in their country.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/1/2016 9:00:06 PM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 630

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/1/2016 9:06:13 PM

Greta75

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Joined: 2/6/2011
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I was thinking about that Chinatown picture Staleek posted. I thought it looks pretty, I like Chinatowns in Western countries. But if they wanted to tear it down, I would have no issues. I just like it because Chinatown in the West look more traditional chinese than Chinese countries themselves ha! But if they wanted to tear it down as not compatible with their western culture or values. I don't understand why people would get upset. To me, it ain't China. If I choose to live there instead of China, it must mean, I prefer their ways to China. So why try to change it to China? Now if China was tearing down "Chinatown" in their own country, and I swear they are gonna be needing to build some traditional china towns now, as everything is looking so sky scraping and grey these days, I'd get upset! Because we need to protect our own heritage!

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/1/2016 9:09:03 PM >

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Post #: 631

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/2/2016 2:05:48 AM

MariaB

Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

this - is the massive shit-storm being kicked up by left wing nutcases who simply refuse to accept that they lost.

quote:

Of course, the driving force behind this angst is the left's refusal to accept that their socialist utopia is a fucking pipe dream.

The Yes campaign, to retain Britain’s EU membership, was dominated by both the Conservative and Labour leaderships. To add to the confusion, the right and the left split over which way they should vote. On the left, it was the socialists who campaigned against retaining its EU membership and so why you are both under the illusion that the socialist voted to remain in is rather baffling. The socialist voters are elated.

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Post #: 632

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/2/2016 4:32:09 AM

blnymph

Posts: 1598
Joined: 11/13/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Vincent. The leave campaign wanted a reformed market that didnt involve conditions other than trade. At present the EU insist on any kid of deal we get, free movement of labour has to stay.

David Cameron, when he tried to negotiate change, wanted a deal on this but was given short shrift. I think if he had been listened to the remain campaign would have won. The whole problem with the EU technocrats is twofold, firstly they dont listen to the electorate of Europe as a whole, secondly many of them are appointed and not elected. Therefore we have no way to vote them out. It is an undemocratic nightmare and wrong beyond belief.

Just two points: It is hardly "the EU insist"ing again but some there reminding British politicians that free movement of humans (including labour) has been part of every free trade agreement the UK has signed since the 1950s including those before Britain has become a EC member. Going back to before that means no free trade agreement valid. It is naive even to consider 27 + a few more states (Norway, Iceland ...) to tear up 60 years of international trade (and more than only trade) regulations because Boris and the kippers promised you. Back to the 1950s because it sounds so good in your ears? It means back to a Europe before EFTA. Really, your wishes? No real chance, not before, not after referendum. Not because of the evil EU but because some politicians who should have known all those things (nothing secret about them as I posted above) have told you CRAP. Nothing but empty phrases.

Yes the Brussels technocrats are not elected. They do not listen to the electorate they listen to the EU commission, EU council, and EU parliament. Who votes for EU parliament: you and me and a lot more. Who makes up EU commission and council: your and mine and 26 other governments. While I rather distrust the intelligence of many in any european member states' governments this construction is the about the best possible after British governments constantly vetoed more competences for the EU parliament decade after decade for instance.
So yes the Brussels technocrats are not elected. But they are executives for heaven's sake, nobody I know votes executives in or out: Do you vote in or out your postman, garbage lorry driver, typist of the town mayor, army officer of any regiment, HM ambassador to China? This is not democratic indeed. Anywhere. (btw do you know that more than 1000 Brits work there?)
The "voted for" parts are your and mine and 26 other governments, and EU parliament. That parliament has not that much legislative power is the consequence of your and my and the other governments not enabling the EU parliament to.

It could be better no doubt about that. So could your and my government politicians. Have fun with yours. Ask them for a plan for the future, it is obvious they do not have one. Not one.

< Message edited by blnymph -- 7/2/2016 4:35:56 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 633

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/2/2016 5:32:22 AM

bounty44

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Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

this - is the massive shit-storm being kicked up by left wing nutcases who simply refuse to accept that they lost.

quote:

Of course, the driving force behind this angst is the left's refusal to accept that their socialist utopia is a fucking pipe dream.

The Yes campaign, to retain Britain’s EU membership, was dominated by both the Conservative and Labour leaderships. To add to the confusion, the right and the left split over which way they should vote. On the left, it was the socialists who campaigned against retaining its EU membership and so why you are both under the illusion that the socialist voted to remain in is rather baffling. The socialist voters are elated.

maria that seems very counterintuitive to the collectivist bent of socialists. do you have some exit polling information from the vote that shows that? and/or that elaborates on such a seeming paradoxical occurrence?

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Post #: 634

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/2/2016 5:38:54 AM

mnottertail

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why would that seem counterintuitive that socialists would want to leave? Other than you dont have any understanding of socialism?

Free markets are a exploitation by corporations of working people.

Consider the US, where the nutsuckers, under the whip of their corporate overlords were hot to trot for the TPP, and the 'socialist' unions were dead set against it.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/2/2016 6:00:43 AM >

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Post #: 635

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/2/2016 6:18:30 AM

bounty44

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sorry there comrade, socialism roughly falls under a collectivist umbrella.

quote:

Collectivists usually focus on community, society, or nation. It is used and has been used as an element in many different and diverse types of government and political, economic and educational philosophies throughout history, ranging from communalism, democracy, monarchy, and socialism....socialism, as a political and economic theory, draws more from collectivism than it does from individualism...

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Collectivism

as such, its legitimate to ask how the socialists actually voted, and how they understand the collective EU as being less desirable (seemingly) than an individual UK.

go harass someone else.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 7/2/2016 6:20:45 AM >

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Post #: 636

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/2/2016 6:19:42 AM

Staleek

Posts: 361
Joined: 6/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Free markets are a exploitation by corporations of working people.

No. They're not. Claiming that free marketeers and capitalists are all parastites feeding on the common man is as absurd as saying all Muslims are terrorists.

The laptop you are typing on? The monitor you are looking at? The smartphone in your pocket? Creations of capitalism. The rush to create something new and different. The advancement of technology and human progress.

And other, more left-wing, aspets of modern life? Decent working conditions? Better medical technology? Free movement of people and the ability to head off to another country, in a safe flying contraption, settle and work there? All of that is due to globalization and the free market.

The good old days of working down a mining pit like your father and your fathers father and your fathers fathers father are also long gone. People start out and, whilst it is difficult, as long as you're reasonably connected from a young age you can be a doctor, or a lawyer, or a politician, or a professor. Of course a lot of people fall through the cracks, and we need socialism to help address that, but denying the free market and capitalism hasn't improved life for humankind is obviously wrong.

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Post #: 637

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/2/2016 6:21:38 AM

MariaB

Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

this - is the massive shit-storm being kicked up by left wing nutcases who simply refuse to accept that they lost.

quote:

Of course, the driving force behind this angst is the left's refusal to accept that their socialist utopia is a fucking pipe dream.

The Yes campaign, to retain Britain’s EU membership, was dominated by both the Conservative and Labour leaderships. To add to the confusion, the right and the left split over which way they should vote. On the left, it was the socialists who campaigned against retaining its EU membership and so why you are both under the illusion that the socialist voted to remain in is rather baffling. The socialist voters are elated.

maria that seems very counterintuitive to the collectivist bent of socialists. do you have some exit polling information from the vote that shows that? and/or that elaborates on such a seeming paradoxical occurrence?

I agree with mnotterail, why would it be counterintuitive? Socialism is a voice for working class people. Let’s remember that the remain campaign was largely dominated by right wing, pro-big business politicians and not Labour. Yes, Labour paid a little lip service to the remain campaign but not nearly enough to convince many Labour supporters in working class Britain. The voice of working class people wasn’t heard by either side of this huge campaign and that’s why unions like RMT and TUSC fully supported Brexit.

Labour and the Green party were suggesting we remain within the EU and try to transform it. Socialists asked, how could the EU be reformed? How could this fortress that have imposed crippling austerity on country after country be penetrated? The simple answer is, it couldn’t.

The remain argument, including Labour was, “stay as we are or risk uncertainty,” If you’ve got nothing, why would you vote to stay as you are? At least with uncertainty there’s some hope that things might change. If I was in that position I would take uncertainty over nothing and why have they got nothing… because austerity has systematically taken from the poorest in this country until they’ve got nothing left. When some millionaire twat warns us all “oh the stock markets going to fall if we leave Europe” FUCK OFF, I can’t afford to buy my children shoes…don’t insult these people.

I’m no socialist but its obvious to me why the far left didn’t listen to the mixed message Corbyn was giving and voted out.

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Post #: 638

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/2/2016 6:24:39 AM

Staleek

Posts: 361
Joined: 6/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

sorry there comrade, socialism roughly falls under a collectivist umbrella.

quote:

Collectivists usually focus on community, society, or nation. It is used and has been used as an element in many different and diverse types of government and political, economic and educational philosophies throughout history, ranging from communalism, democracy, monarchy, and socialism....socialism, as a political and economic theory, draws more from collectivism than it does from individualism...

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Collectivism

as such, its legitimate to ask how the socialists actually voted, and how they understand the collective EU as being less desirable (seemingly) than an individual UK.

go harass someone else.

Mostly true. I am a collectivist and I believe in the greater good for the most people, and thus I think the EU is a great thing. More socially liberal socialists, particularly the young, voted to remain.

But the older generation of socialists, those who have been disenfranchised by the progress of the modern world and seen their old industries of mining disappear and manufacturing go to China? Well they voted to leave.

The political schism is changing dramatically. It used to be left/right was a matter of collectivist and predominantly poor/individualist and predominantly wealthy. It is starting to look like left/right is educated and politically aware/uneducated and politically disengaged.

(in reply to bounty44)

Post #: 639

RE: Brexit Vote Results - 7/2/2016 6:41:49 AM

bounty44

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Joined: 11/1/2014
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for the very reason I gave---socialism is related to collectivism and the EU is somewhat of a collectivist endeavor.

quote:

Though Liberalism and Conservatism would remain the chief political ideologies in Europe during the 19th century, this period saw the emergence of another modern political doctrine - Socialism. Socialism would influence much of the class politics of the late-19th and 20th centuries, and from the very first it was viewed as a threat by more traditional observers. Socialism's most distinctive feature was its collectivist ideology, which contrasted sharply with individualism. Whereas Liberalism and many forms of Conservatism took the individual as the most important political unit, aiming to protect individual rights, Socialism was more concerned with bettering the political and social conditions of society as a whole.

https://faculty.unlv.edu/gbrown/westernciv/wc201/wciv2c19/wciv2c19lsec3.html

in part what im seeing your saying maria is that perhaps if the socialists found the idea of the EU desirable, they weren't finding it so in actual practice.

still---what id like to see is their actual explanation, as well as exit polling.

here something ive not read yet:

https://socialistworker.org/2016/06/20/why-socialists-should-support-a-british-exit

am peeking at it now and here's one line from it:

"There are left-wing arguments for both Leave and Remain"

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 7/2/2016 7:05:50 AM >

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Post #: 640

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