RE: Brexit Vote Results

RE: Brexit Vote Results (Full Version)

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NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/5/2016 12:03:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods I think he's saying that they haven't been rounding up and gassing all of the jews, gays, pikies, unionists, mud people, mentally ill and other undesirables, beheading catholics in front of a crowd, or invading Poland and Belgium. Well, good point, that gig is being well and truly handled by the Muslims. I don't know if anyone's noticed, but they're rather keen on the Final Solution when it comes to Jews and homosexuals - the mud people are probably toast, too. Besides, who needs to round anyone up when you can just take their homes and destroy their livelihood? Europe isn't exactly party time for anyone except the Germans and the corrupt-to-the-bones fat cat Brussels bureaucrats. So, which other parts of the Third Reich's agenda have the Eurocrats been pursuing then? The most important one: suppression of democracy.

thompsonx -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/5/2016 12:10:17 PM)
ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 The most important one: suppression of democracy. You say that as if it were important???could you tell us just where it exist or ever has existed in terms of nation states?[8\|]

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/5/2016 12:42:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 The most important one: suppression of democracy. You say that as if it were important???could you tell us just where it exist or ever has existed in terms of nation states?[8\|] England?

Awareness -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/5/2016 4:40:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods I think he's saying that they haven't been rounding up and gassing all of the jews, gays, pikies, unionists, mud people, mentally ill and other undesirables, beheading catholics in front of a crowd, or invading Poland and Belgium. Well, good point, that gig is being well and truly handled by the Muslims. I don't know if anyone's noticed, but they're rather keen on the Final Solution when it comes to Jews and homosexuals - the mud people are probably toast, too. Besides, who needs to round anyone up when you can just take their homes and destroy their livelihood? Europe isn't exactly party time for anyone except the Germans and the corrupt-to-the-bones fat cat Brussels bureaucrats. So, which other parts of the Third Reich's agenda have the Eurocrats been pursuing then? The elimination of democracy and the amalgamation of Europe into a fascist super-state.

Awareness -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/5/2016 4:42:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail What thats all the goal, out of EU and flush it, Crist staked on a cricket hoop man, so like W its go to war and you beggars can sort out the consequence? I can't even consider the fucking stupid of that. Getting out of the EU is the primary issue. Once that's accomplished, the rest is just administrative overhead. The Bremain crybabies prophesying doom are just comprehensively full of shit.

MariaB -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/6/2016 12:53:55 AM)
Pretty much what Awareness says.

YouAreTheStorm -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/6/2016 12:42:58 PM)
Replied to wrong person and no idea how to delete this.

YouAreTheStorm -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/6/2016 12:45:50 PM)
Not really true. The monarchy don't rule the nation, they're just expensive ambassador/tourist attractions really now. We have an elected government. I voted leave because our system whilst not perfect is more perfect than the anti-democratic mess that is the EU.

Staleek -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/7/2016 4:20:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 Click on the link, Ron, and you may get clued in as to what the EU is all about. It ain't the USA; it's the fuckin' USSR. ... I wonder. I wonder ... Do you just need a history update about the USSR (ceased to exist by now in case you missed it)? Or also one about fundamental rights of EU citizens ...(also granted - still - to UK citizens) ...? You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Half the lunatic posters here are comparing the EU to a fascist superstate and think destroying our economy is a good thing. They actually believe that leaving behind a large trade conglomerate which had powerful bargaining powers with other very large and powerful nations (such as China and the USA) will give us more sovereignty, when we've already seen we will have less control of our country as a result of this monumentally stupid decision. Anyway, for those with an interest in this but actually have a brain with which to think about it, here is something that will interest you. Michael Dougan on the fallout from the referendum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dosmKwrAbI It's at best bleak, at worst outright depressing. The silver lining is that it is starting to look like article 50 won't be enacted at all. The politician who reverses this might be committing career suicide, the politician that doesn't will be condemning the country to economic and maybe even social suicide.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/7/2016 4:26:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YouAreTheStorm Not really true. The monarchy don't rule the nation, they're just expensive ambassador/tourist attractions really now. We have an elected government. I voted leave because our system whilst not perfect is more perfect than the anti-democratic mess that is the EU. Now if the Queen knights Fuehrage, he can have a position in the new government, which I believe Andrea has promised him... The same guy who failed to get elected as an MP 7 times... As for the UK being more perfect than the EU, in the EU every law maker is elected, do tell me when was the last time you voted for anybody who's in the House of Lords? That bastion of democracy?

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/7/2016 11:39:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: YouAreTheStorm Not really true. The monarchy don't rule the nation, they're just expensive ambassador/tourist attractions really now. We have an elected government. I voted leave because our system whilst not perfect is more perfect than the anti-democratic mess that is the EU. Now if the Queen knights Fuehrage, he can have a position in the new government, which I believe Andrea has promised him... The same guy who failed to get elected as an MP 7 times... As for the UK being more perfect than the EU, in the EU every law maker is elected, do tell me when was the last time you voted for anybody who's in the House of Lords? That bastion of democracy? No they're not. The European Parliament has no power to make or repeal laws, probably the only Parliament in the history of the world with such limited scope. It follows thus it begs the question what is the fucking point of them? All laws have to go through the European Commission, all of whom are unelected as is the President and he was the only name on the 'ballot paper' last time 'round. They have four fucking Presidents for fuck's sake!

MariaB -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/7/2016 12:36:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: YouAreTheStorm Not really true. The monarchy don't rule the nation, they're just expensive ambassador/tourist attractions really now. We have an elected government. I voted leave because our system whilst not perfect is more perfect than the anti-democratic mess that is the EU. Now if the Queen knights Fuehrage, he can have a position in the new government, which I believe Andrea has promised him... The same guy who failed to get elected as an MP 7 times... As for the UK being more perfect than the EU, in the EU every law maker is elected, do tell me when was the last time you voted for anybody who's in the House of Lords? That bastion of democracy? Except we don't elect them, we merely elect the party we want to represent us. The MEP's are then internally elected by the sacred privy.

WhoreMods -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/7/2016 12:47:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: YouAreTheStorm Not really true. The monarchy don't rule the nation, they're just expensive ambassador/tourist attractions really now. We have an elected government. I voted leave because our system whilst not perfect is more perfect than the anti-democratic mess that is the EU. Now if the Queen knights Fuehrage, he can have a position in the new government, which I believe Andrea has promised him... The same guy who failed to get elected as an MP 7 times... As for the UK being more perfect than the EU, in the EU every law maker is elected, do tell me when was the last time you voted for anybody who's in the House of Lords? That bastion of democracy? Except we don't elect them, we merely elect the party we want to represent us. The MEP's are then internally elected by the sacred privy. You do get to vote for MEPs, in fact. A lot of people can't be arsed to do so, but it is something you vote for (or, it would seem in your case, can't be bothered to vote for, but whine about instead). Ever voted for a by election or a council seat, either?

MariaB -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/8/2016 2:50:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods You do get to vote for MEPs, in fact. A lot of people can't be arsed to do so, but it is something you vote for (or, it would seem in your case, can't be bothered to vote for, but whine about instead). Ever voted for a by election or a council seat, either? MEP names on a ballot sheet are positioned in order of government preference, so if your chosen MEP comes near the bottom of the list, even with a landslide victory its unlikely they will be elected for a position of MEP. (This of course depends on the number of seats) The UK has the undemocratic “d'Hondt system” ( closed vote. ) An example would be 2 conservatives on the ballot list, the first sitting in 3rd position on the ballot paper and the second sitting in 8th position. The person sitting in 8th position gets the most votes for his party, whilst the candidate in 3rd position gets the least votes…. This means if the conservatives have won a seat that seat goes to the candidate who’s sitting in 3rd position (the one with the least votes) and not the one who got the most votes. If you vote for a conservative member who is low on the ballot list, all you are voting for is the conservative party and not the actual candidate.

Staleek -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/8/2016 6:15:00 AM)
The sovereignty argument is dumb. There is no way to have sovereignty in the modern world without cutting parts of it off and that is dumb. Dumb and backward. The North Korean model of government is undoubtedly sovereign, but it is also economically ruinous and is not good for the well-being of the citizens. You still get to vote in Parliament, who go to the EU and represent your interests in Europe. That happens. That's democracy. And even if you couldn't vote for MEPs (which you can) then so what? You can't vote for JP Morgan, Lehmans, Wells of Fargo, Citigroup, HSBC, BNP Paribas, or Mitsubishi UFJ either. And what about Glencore, State Grid, Sinopec, Wal-Mart, Toyota, Samsung, Apple, Daimler, AXA, AT&T or Allianz? These institutions have as much say in your life as your political representatives, possibly even more. The result of the referendum has wiped about 10% off the value of our currency, making imports more expensive. Nobody voted to make imports more expensive, where are the complains and protests about financial markets being undemocratic? What's going to happen when we leave the pound reaches parity with the dollar? What will you do when it costs £14 to get a prescription and fuel is £3.99 a litre? And what about when you want a shiny new TV set, and see they're now costing over £1000? Meaning you have to work longer and harder in order to get what you could before more easily, is that really what you wanted? The fate of any country is not just decided by the country itself but also by the markets, the financial institutions, and the international community whether you like it or not. That's just the way it is and it's not a bad thing. It has kept relative peace for decades, as countries outside of this system (such as those in the Middle East) tend to be the ones which are less stable. War between two nations comes at a cost, so countries try a lot harder to maintain the peace and keep cooperating. I have every respect for someone who disagrees with me and decides they don't like this global marketplace if they then put away their computer, get rid of their imported electronic consumer goods, drop their EU manufactured textile clothing, stop eating bananas, oranges, and other citrus fruits, stop drinking Brazilian coffee or Indian tea, and start a substance farm in the middle of nowhere. I'd be a luddite myself if I wasn't so attached to my oculus rift. But moaning about the lack of sovereignty (essentially globalization) on your Samsung laptop designed in Korea and manufactured in China with silicates produced in California is, to put it bluntly, childish. Within the EU we at least had some measure of control over these institutions by being such a large and powerful trading block. In walking away from it we've LOST power and national sovereignty.

vincentML -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/8/2016 11:05:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph what was that story ... about rats and sinking ships ...? Farage believes he has achieved his goals, and so no more doing. Considering the whole point of the UK Independence Party was to take us out of the European Union, then I'm not sure what the point of him remaining in post would be. The Labour Party are in disarray because they have become unelectable and don't know which way to turn: a socialist type like Corbyn who could never get elected in this country or a Blair type who may get elected but is everything the grass roots Labour member detests. Nothing really to do with the EU. The Conservative Party has always been split on the issue of Europe and so its no surprise to see a few fall by the wayside. Either way: here is a film/documentary put out about the European Union - before the vote. This film encompasses the three main issues for the English. It is only one side of the story, granted, but have a watch and you tell me which of the points raised have no grounding in reality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k I watched he film you linked and found it quite a powerful indictment of the EU. However, bottom line I came away with the notion that this was just a gussied up appeal for more neoliberalism. There was a great deal of mention of efficiency and competition and death to regulations but very little of how all of this would enhance the wages of labor. No mention of Unions at all. So, benefits to businesses but nothing for labor. That is just the same ol same ol neoliberalism that has kept working class wages static these past four decades. Be happy to know what I missed in BREXIT, THE MOVIE. Thanks NG.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/8/2016 11:19:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph what was that story ... about rats and sinking ships ...? Farage believes he has achieved his goals, and so no more doing. Considering the whole point of the UK Independence Party was to take us out of the European Union, then I'm not sure what the point of him remaining in post would be. The Labour Party are in disarray because they have become unelectable and don't know which way to turn: a socialist type like Corbyn who could never get elected in this country or a Blair type who may get elected but is everything the grass roots Labour member detests. Nothing really to do with the EU. The Conservative Party has always been split on the issue of Europe and so its no surprise to see a few fall by the wayside. Either way: here is a film/documentary put out about the European Union - before the vote. This film encompasses the three main issues for the English. It is only one side of the story, granted, but have a watch and you tell me which of the points raised have no grounding in reality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k I watched he film you linked and found it quite a powerful indictment of the EU. However, bottom line I came away with the notion that this was just a gussied up appeal for more neoliberalism. There was a great deal of mention of efficiency and competition and death to regulations but very little of how all of this would enhance the wages of labor. No mention of Unions at all. So, benefits to businesses but nothing for labor. That is just the same ol same ol neoliberalism that has kept working class wages static these past four decades. Be happy to know what I missed in BREXIT, THE MOVIE. Thanks NG. Fair point, Vincent, and I agree to an extent. I think the main focus was sovereignty, regardless of political views. There is also a documentary: 'Lexit', which is the Left's view of why we shouldn't be in a union with them, and the focus on that particular one was the neo-Liberalism which you mention. But, England is a liberal country at heart. She's not like the United States. We are economically liberal at heart; it's our history. We don't have much in the way of natural resources and so we need to go out into the world. The strange thing with England is that the Working Class are not like any other Working Class except perhaps in the United States and the other English speaking countries. They/we are generally very, very conservative by nature. The simple things in life are what our Working Class aspire to, not some great ideal such as the working classes of Europe where the masses are gonna rise up and change the world. I suppose this what binds our country whatever your class: sceptical of grand ideas and what politicians can achieve.

vincentML -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/8/2016 12:21:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph what was that story ... about rats and sinking ships ...? Farage believes he has achieved his goals, and so no more doing. Considering the whole point of the UK Independence Party was to take us out of the European Union, then I'm not sure what the point of him remaining in post would be. The Labour Party are in disarray because they have become unelectable and don't know which way to turn: a socialist type like Corbyn who could never get elected in this country or a Blair type who may get elected but is everything the grass roots Labour member detests. Nothing really to do with the EU. The Conservative Party has always been split on the issue of Europe and so its no surprise to see a few fall by the wayside. Either way: here is a film/documentary put out about the European Union - before the vote. This film encompasses the three main issues for the English. It is only one side of the story, granted, but have a watch and you tell me which of the points raised have no grounding in reality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k I watched he film you linked and found it quite a powerful indictment of the EU. However, bottom line I came away with the notion that this was just a gussied up appeal for more neoliberalism. There was a great deal of mention of efficiency and competition and death to regulations but very little of how all of this would enhance the wages of labor. No mention of Unions at all. So, benefits to businesses but nothing for labor. That is just the same ol same ol neoliberalism that has kept working class wages static these past four decades. Be happy to know what I missed in BREXIT, THE MOVIE. Thanks NG. Fair point, Vincent, and I agree to an extent. I think the main focus was sovereignty, regardless of political views. There is also a documentary: 'Lexit', which is the Left's view of why we shouldn't be in a union with them, and the focus on that particular one was the neo-Liberalism which you mention. But, England is a liberal country at heart. She's not like the United States. We are economically liberal at heart; it's our history. We don't have much in the way of natural resources and so we need to go out into the world. The strange thing with England is that the Working Class are not like any other Working Class except perhaps in the United States and the other English speaking countries. They/we are generally very, very conservative by nature. The simple things in life are what our Working Class aspire to, not some great ideal such as the working classes of Europe where the masses are gonna rise up and change the world. I suppose this what binds our country whatever your class: sceptical of grand ideas and what politicians can achieve. Thank you NG. I will check out 'Lexit' I agree that the working classes of our two nations share many similarities in character. But you might also agree that Maggie Thatcher and Ron Reagan set both our workers down the road to stagnation with botched social services and trickle down economics mysticism. And the WTO has not been much of a help either.

thompsonx -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/8/2016 12:45:53 PM)
ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 ORIGINAL: thompsonx The most important one: suppression of democracy. You say that as if it were important???could you tell us just where it exist or ever has existed in terms of nation states?[8\|] England? I am pretty sure england is a constitutional monarchy with a bi-cameral parliment.

Edwird -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/9/2016 1:07:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 The strange thing with England is that the Working Class are not like any other Working Class except perhaps in the United States and the other English speaking countries. They/we are generally very, very conservative by nature. The simple things in life are what our Working Class aspire to, not some great ideal such as the working classes of Europe where the masses are gonna rise up and change the world. I suppose this what binds our country whatever your class: sceptical of grand ideas and what politicians can achieve. Here's the news: The people in Nordic/Germanic countries are more well off than those in the UK or US, and it's not due to some pie in the sky notions of "supply side" neoliberal economic haberdashery bespoke suit of trickle down crap. Unlike in the UK and US where economic fantasy pervades, they distrust the corporations and the government equally, and so alot which is going to do what for society by that estimation. Thatcher/Reagan instigated what then became 'required' for every Labour/Liberal/Conservative/ Democratic/Republican Prime Minister or President, MP or congressman, and has been held to that by the so asserted 'liberal media' ever since. If one wishes for a true meritocracy and the economic benefits to be obtained thereby, then look at the results regarding the countries who consider that higher education is a birthright for those capable of it vs. those countries who consider it a 'privilege.' How many Swedes or Germans come out of the uni being $20,000-80,000 in debt when applying for their first post-school job? None. And what's more, Germany, for example, trains their lower and medium skilled workers such that the 50% below median income earners are conspicuously more well off than their counterparts in the UK or the US. While at it, Germany exports to the world about as much as the US does, with just a bit over 1/4th the population. Nothing the least bit 'pie in the sky' notions about it. The German media are almost as bad as the UK or US media, but their people are not nearly as easily deluded and susceptible to fantasy as we are. National parochialism and willful ignorance of what works better else where isn't all that it's cracked up to be, as it turns out.

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