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For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Communities - 7/3/2016 4:55:07 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Back in April, I got this link from another forum participant.
http://www.sexfortherest.com/blogpost/2016/3/creating-authentic-kink-community
It was sent to me by a gal who finds some really interesting articles from time to time. She said that she read this and thought of me. (I was rather flattered by that.) In successive emails, I asked her if she would be cool if I started a thread about it some time in the future. Today seems to be a good day.

Some of it, though I'm never as articulate about the subjects as the author, I completely understood why the person thought of me. Stuff I tend to bore you folks with on a regular basis. (I'll try not to bore you here with recapping those things. I'm sure they will come up on other threads and I'll get on my soapboxes when they come up.)

Then, in reading this article, I got to this part about Restorative Justice. I've heard about this being applied in certain situations, but I had to educate myself on it a bit more. I'm taking the following from Wiki:

quote:

Restorative justice is an approach to justice that focuses on the needs of the victims and the offenders, as well as the involved community. This contrasts to more punitive approaches where the main aim is to punish the offender, or satisfy abstract legal principles.

Victims take an active role in the process. Meanwhile, offenders are encouraged to take responsibility for their actions, "to repair the harm they've done – by apologizing, returning stolen money, or community service".[1] In addition, the restorative justice approach aims to help the offender to avoid future offences.


I'm not really sure I'm full swing with this. I do lean more toward the punitive side. The idea is to remove offenders from society so they can't harm other people or continue harming the same person multiple times. I support this in our communities. If you've got a person the re-offends repeatedly, is fully aware of what they are doing is wrong, makes no amends other than some flippant 'sorry about that' before they do the same sh^t again... That's not a candidate for restorative justice.

I'm also not sure I'm with this 're-education' theory. Seriously? These folks operate in vanilla society need to be educated about not violating people? Do they grab people by the tit at their workplace and remain employed? Did they not know that they shouldn't grab someone on the ass or the crotch at their local book club or the PTA, because, if you do, you're not coming back?

There are some things about restorative justice that I can groove with. In no particular order:

* The victim is a part of the process. They are incorporated in how the situation should be handled.

* Damage must be repaired before the offender returns to society.

* Third parties, (i.e., stakeholders) are also included in this process.


So, I thought I'd put this up here and see if people wanted to discuss it. Your thoughts?


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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/3/2016 7:00:26 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I see it more as having a place in youthful offenders, or any non violent crime.
Is it appropriate to waste public funds by incarcerating graffiti taggers of subway trains? I think making them scrub them clean or paint them over is a better way to get through to them.

And the amount of common sense not possessed by the average teen is unbelievable.

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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/3/2016 8:41:27 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Carol and I have seen two documentaries on restorative justice and I came away wildly enthusiastic. Looking at how it functions in it's native culture is really instructive. It truly is a community thing. The entire community participates as they are all stakeholders. I like the idea because the engineer in me likes efficiency and I see rehabilitation as infinitely more efficient than punishment in the vast majority of cases.

From my outsider-looking-in perspective, I agree with the entire article... both the analysis of the status quo and the desirability of her future vision.

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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 12:17:22 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		I'll have to think about that one. Right now, I'm not in favor of it.

I think of there being two kinds of violation in kink:

1. The offender was dumb and didn't know better.
2. The offender knew full well what they were doing.

In case #1, the correct thing is to check with the victim - would they want the offender banned from that venue? If so, sit down with the offender, explain what was wrong, and that they are banned but welcome to go to other venues but never to repeat the offense again there. If the victim would be okay with the offender coming back, then sit down with the offender, explain what was wrong, and that they are never to reoffend again.

In case #2, ban.

That's for serious offenses. For minor stuff like touching someone else's implements, sit down and explain a time or two, and then ban.

The problem is that I know of some people that continue to offend (#2). Some have been doing this for years without serious consequence. Restorative justice will simply waste everyone's time and allow the offender to say a few lies, cry a few tears, and then remain active in the community, harassing other people.

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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 2:15:25 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Carol and I have seen two documentaries on restorative justice and I came away wildly enthusiastic. Looking at how it functions in it's native culture is really instructive. It truly is a community thing. The entire community participates as they are all stakeholders. I like the idea because the engineer in me likes efficiency and I see rehabilitation as infinitely more efficient than punishment in the vast majority of cases.

From my outsider-looking-in perspective, I agree with the entire article... both the analysis of the status quo and the desirability of her future vision.

And, I find the part that I highlighted to be correct.

By the time local kink group X is getting to the point where they have to start considering banning problem person A, more often than not, you are not just dealing with offender A and victim B. You have to consider that it also effected the venue, the support system related to victim B, the negative effects for those who supported offender A, (yeah, that really happens because if you're the person who tried to downplay what offender A did, you are seen as the person who finds what offender A did as acceptable, which doesn't turn out pretty) the people who won't attend group X because of bad reputation, etc, etc, etc. You don't plunk a stone in the water without ripples.

I'm attempting to parallel this to how we handle certain instances in vanilla society. Two situations come to mind with our regular justice system. If you get busted for a DUI, it is almost standard practice that you will be required to attend AA or an equivalent program. Some form of physical assault? You're probably going to some form of anger management class. The theory behind this stuff is to educate the person so they hopefully don't re-offend.

The question has to be how do we make the education work? In a lot of cases, we're already dealing with people who have to do mandatory orientation before going to that play party. Hopefully, the groups are already offering classes on negotiation and consent. We already provide that neat piece of paper with the dungeon rules on it, that we require people to sign, that includes somewhere in there, "if you break these rules, you can't be here".

In your opinion, what is the "more" about education that we can implement to make restorative justice work?


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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 3:21:42 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I'll have to think about that one. Right now, I'm not in favor of it.

Before I respond to various points in your comments, I do want to say that you are one of the people I was hoping would participate on this thread. I'm sure you'll understand why as to follow.

quote:

I think of there being two kinds of violation in kink:

1. The offender was dumb and didn't know better.
2. The offender knew full well what they were doing.

I could not agree with this more. Even with the harsh stance that I have against offenders, I'm still aware that we have to include those situations where we look at things like honest mistakes, accidents, miscommunication, and dozens of other potential factors. While most people might see my comments as conveyed differently, I'm really not trying to see this area as a blanket approach. It has to be a case by case basis.

quote:

In case #1, the correct thing is to check with the victim - would they want the offender banned from that venue? If so, sit down with the offender, explain what was wrong, and that they are banned but welcome to go to other venues but never to repeat the offense again there. If the victim would be okay with the offender coming back, then sit down with the offender, explain what was wrong, and that they are never to reoffend again.

As stated in the original, I feel the victim has to have some kind of input for restorative justice to work. It's not up to Joe Shmoe to decide 'it wasn't that bad'. (I honestly can't stand that expression anymore.) This doesn't mean that we're trying to force the victim, at any point, to be in the same room with the offender. If that option isn't acceptable, we will (hopefully) look at other methods.

quote:

In case #2, ban.

That's for serious offenses. For minor stuff like touching someone else's implements, sit down and explain a time or two, and then ban.

The problem is that I know of some people that continue to offend (#2). Some have been doing this for years without serious consequence. Restorative justice will simply waste everyone's time and allow the offender to say a few lies, cry a few tears, and then remain active in the community, harassing other people.

We were both commenting on a situation not long ago where it was a pretty clear case of #2. When somebody has been pulling the same MO for years, I just don't see re-education as a possibility. Sorry/not sorry, but "no" is a pretty simplistic word in the human language. You teach a two year old what the word "no" means. Not some 40 year+ human.

As a side note, did you dig the propaganda and the emotional manipulation from the offender?


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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 6:28:49 AM   
littleclip


Posts: 869
Joined: 5/31/2012
Status: offline 		restorative justice in native communities works as the entire tribe takes part in it and all are part of the solution. in western culture we tend to be more isolationists the idea that its not my problem unless it directly affects me let someone else deal with it.
when the victim and the offender and the community come together to deal with all aspects of the alleged offense even the unspoken ones, the cycle of blame and and attack will continue to sour those in the community.
our western society locks up more than any other one in the world with more repeat offenders and worsening crimes. for a restorative justice to function in the us there would have to be a major paradigm shift in how justice is meted out.
it would be a wonderful thing to be adopted by the kink community to be a bastion of rationality to all other communities to show that there is a better way of doing things


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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 7:59:27 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
By the time local kink group X is getting to the point where they have to start considering banning problem person A, more often than not, you are not just dealing with offender A and victim B. You have to consider that it also effected the venue, the support system related to victim B, the negative effects for those who supported offender A, (yeah, that really happens because if you're the person who tried to downplay what offender A did, you are seen as the person who finds what offender A did as acceptable, which doesn't turn out pretty) the people who won't attend group X because of bad reputation, etc, etc, etc. You don't plunk a stone in the water without ripples.

Assuming, of course, there's any water in the pond to start with. To the point of this discussion, I don't see how restorative justice can really do much if there's no "village" within which it can occur. It's my general impression that the sort of social linkages which would make anything short of the current system simply aren't present. The status quo is more like a bunch of chess enthusiasts attending a chess tournament. There is no real community there. There is simply some like minded individuals and cheaters need to be evicted not counselled.

Since I know your interest in this is serious rather than "let's kick something around on an internet discussion forum", my serious advice would be to contact someone in the anthropology/sociology departments of the local college and get some insight from them.

I'm attempting to parallel this to how we handle certain instances in vanilla society. Two situations come to mind with our regular justice system. If you get busted for a DUI, it is almost standard practice that you will be required to attend AA or an equivalent program. Some form of physical assault? You're probably going to some form of anger management class. The theory behind this stuff is to educate the person so they hopefully don't re-offend.
Yes, that would be our punishment based system grappling blindly with some other alternative... and failing. The idea that you're going to "educate" someone out of substance abuse is as ludicrous as it comes (as evidenced by the repeat rates of drug counselling). In order for rehabilitation to work, the society needs to honestly be trying to rehabilitate. You'd really need to reject in it's entirety the vanilla culture's view of crime & punishment for this to get anywhere. For a community to exist, the members must care about the community and the community must care about it's members. That sort of leaves you at DarkSteven's view.

In your opinion, what is the "more" about education that we can implement to make restorative justice work?
My view of the BDSM community has some advantages since I'm an outsider, but that also leaves some disadvantages -- I get some clarity at the expense of detail. So any answer I have here is speculative. What I know is that it isn't "education" that'll make this work. It's community. If I have sinned against you, then I need to care what you think and I also need to care what the other members of the community think. I suspect it is social bonds more than education which would make this work and what you'd need would be to actually build some communities.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my understanding of this means that this is a tool which could be used in the formation of an actual community but the building of the community and the justice system within that community would need to go hand in hand. You can't simply plop this solution into a generic mob of people and expect it to work.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 8:42:05 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
I see it more as having a place in youthful offenders, or any non violent crime.
Is it appropriate to waste public funds by incarcerating graffiti taggers of subway trains? I think making them scrub them clean or paint them over is a better way to get through to them.

And the amount of common sense not possessed by the average teen is unbelievable.

To be fair, we could say the same about certain adults, too. ;)

Dumb story from years ago. Not quite the situation where group X had to ban offender A. It was Host C would no longer let Person A attend parties at their house because person A had broken a lamp. There was no question that Person A had broken the lamp. (He did admit it.) The problem was he refused to apologize and pay for the lamp. The way it ended up, Person A was not banned from group X. He could attend munches and such. However, Host C would not allow the person in her house, which I would have said the same thing. The group ended up paying for the lamp, which was less than fifty bucks.

Of the instances that I'm familiar with where banning an individual has come up, not all of them have been violent. In the last five(?) years or so, there have been three folks who have misappropriated funds from some good sized events/organizations. Not violent, but not victim-less, either.

I think I need to read up on this more because I'm not connecting the theory of restorative justice without certain elements being in play:

* Admission of guilt from the offender.

* Remorse from the offender for the harm to the parties involved. Not "I feel bad for myself because I can't attend X" as I mentioned with Steven.

* Victim input (as I said earlier)

* Reparations from the offender.

* Education for the offender. Not just "this is bad" but why this is bad.

* Whatever the group requires of the offender before that person can continue to attend.


Maybe I'm wrong in this, because I do put the majority of the onus on the offender. I'd like to see some opinions on that as well.



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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 10:25:09 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Assuming, of course, there's any water in the pond to start with. To the point of this discussion, I don't see how restorative justice can really do much if there's no "village" within which it can occur. It's my general impression that the sort of social linkages which would make anything short of the current system simply aren't present. The status quo is more like a bunch of chess enthusiasts attending a chess tournament. There is no real community there. There is simply some like minded individuals and cheaters need to be evicted not counselled.

This is a very good point and one that is definitely referenced in the article about do we have communities or do we just have collectives. As someone who has moved around so many times in the past decade in the half, I'm the first person to say that some communities are better than others. Some communities/events/pick a term, just plain suck about allowing offenders to be in the midst. There are two major events in the US that you couldn't pay me to walk into because it's well known that they allow sexual predators, consent violators, and other unsavory folks to attend.

quote:

Since I know your interest in this is serious rather than "let's kick something around on an internet discussion forum", my serious advice would be to contact someone in the anthropology/sociology departments of the local college and get some insight from them.

I'm still in the background research point. I would at least like to be educated enough to ask intelligent questions if I ever got to that level.

quote:

Yes, that would be our punishment based system grappling blindly with some other alternative... and failing. The idea that you're going to "educate" someone out of substance abuse is as ludicrous as it comes (as evidenced by the repeat rates of drug counselling). In order for rehabilitation to work, the society needs to honestly be trying to rehabilitate. You'd really need to reject in it's entirety the vanilla culture's view of crime & punishment for this to get anywhere. For a community to exist, the members must care about the community and the community must care about it's members. That sort of leaves you at DarkSteven's view.

People may dislike this statement. I care a heck of a lot more about the victims than I do the offenders. In our kink culture, we do have a heavy share of victim blaming. We've got plenty of excuses for offenders. They didn't know any better. They aren't educated. Etc.

quote:

My view of the BDSM community has some advantages since I'm an outsider, but that also leaves some disadvantages -- I get some clarity at the expense of detail. So any answer I have here is speculative. What I know is that it isn't "education" that'll make this work. It's community. If I have sinned against you, then I need to care what you think and I also need to care what the other members of the community think. I suspect it is social bonds more than education which would make this work and what you'd need would be to actually build some communities.

If you don't mind, that's exactly what makes me find your opinion valuable. Sometimes, it takes outside opinions to maintain balance. Not knowing who group X is, or Person A is, or Person B is, gives you an unbiased opinion. It allows you the logical approach, rather than any particular community, which we've already determined has bias because that community has been effected.

I highlighted the above sentence to connect it with something else. On a thread that was pulled recently, Ishtar had a post on it that commented about ostracization and discussion on why that method may have worked more in the past than it does today. (Damn smart gal. If you ever have the opportunity to meet her in person, if you haven't already, I'd highly suggest you do so. Sixteen kinds of smart.) If I'm lucky, she'll see this thread and attempt to recreate her comments here. I would love to see her participation.

quote:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my understanding of this means that this is a tool which could be used in the formation of an actual community but the building of the community and the justice system within that community would need to go hand in hand. You can't simply plop this solution into a generic mob of people and expect it to work.

I would tend to agree.

Before I even heard the term restorative justice, I've read quite a few comments from people in the community who take the 'we shouldn't ban' approach. The theory being something like this: "We shouldn't ban offender X. If we do, the offender just goes to the next community. If we keep him/her here, we can keep an eye on them."

That's crap. If the so-called community was keeping an eye on their events to begin with, and establishing affirmative repercussions for offenders, it seems to me we'd have something better.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 10:49:59 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
This is a very good point and one that is definitely referenced in the article about do we have communities or do we just have collectives. As someone who has moved around so many times in the past decade in the half, I'm the first person to say that some communities are better than others. Some communities/events/pick a term, just plain suck about allowing offenders to be in the midst. There are two major events in the US that you couldn't pay me to walk into because it's well known that they allow sexual predators, consent violators, and other unsavory folks to attend.

Sure, the question is whether a sociologist would agree that any of these groupings actually constituted a community. Some must. But in the macro view, I suspect the answer is "no".

I'm still in the background research point. I would at least like to be educated enough to ask intelligent questions if I ever got to that level.
Then in my opinion, the question that you need to ask is something like, "How does restorative justice work in the context of varying degrees of social bonding?" The examples I remember were first from a native New Guinea culture where village was absolutely front and center. It made total sense there. More tenuously, there was an example from America in a high crime, high poverty area. That also worked although my sense was that it was a bit more klutzy.

People may dislike this statement. I care a heck of a lot more about the victims than I do the offenders. In our kink culture, we do have a heavy share of victim blaming. We've got plenty of excuses for offenders. They didn't know any better. They aren't educated. Etc.
I think that's part of the problem. In order for a community based solution to work, there must be a community. That means the individuals must care about the group and vice versa. To automatically separate out "victim" vs. "transgressor" and seek to punish the transgressor simply doesn't get there. That's not community. That's more like Mad Max.... exactly as the author points out. I suspect that the first goal must be about the community rather than the individuals. It reminds me of when Merc said of his M/s relationship, "We both serve the relationship." I am not even remotely suggesting that one should ignore the problem or blame the victim. I'm saying that an entirely different mindset is required to think on these things.... a mindset that is foreign to Americans.

quote:

My view of the BDSM community has some advantages since I'm an outsider, but that also leaves some disadvantages -- I get some clarity at the expense of detail. So any answer I have here is speculative. What I know is that it isn't "education" that'll make this work. It's community. If I have sinned against you, then I need to care what you think and I also need to care what the other members of the community think. I suspect it is social bonds more than education which would make this work and what you'd need would be to actually build some communities.


If you don't mind, that's exactly what makes me find your opinion valuable. Sometimes, it takes outside opinions to maintain balance. Not knowing who group X is, or Person A is, or Person B is, gives you an unbiased opinion. It allows you the logical approach, rather than any particular community, which we've already determined has bias because that community has been effected.
Agreed... but it's also worth noting the limitations of the outside viewpoint. I gain objectivity at the price of detail.

Oh... and yes... I always love to see Ishtar's input and I agree that ostracization is near meaningless in such a fluid environment.

Before I even heard the term restorative justice, I've read quite a few comments from people in the community who take the 'we shouldn't ban' approach. The theory being something like this: "We shouldn't ban offender X. If we do, the offender just goes to the next community. If we keep him/her here, we can keep an eye on them."
And again, I think the entire mental framework is wrong. How about, "We should ban because the offender has clearly and unequivocally demonstrated that they have no interest in being a member of the community. In all other cases, we should enfold and nurture because the transgressor is also a part of the community and therefor the community must also care about him/her. This part of my half-formed assessment is deep water and I think an expert's view on this is critical. The american psyche has got some fundamental issues that need to be addressed before anything like this can hope to succeed.

That's crap. If the so-called community was keeping an eye on their events to begin with, and establishing affirmative repercussions for offenders, it seems to me we'd have something better.
So then... crime & punishment... classic American criminal justice thinking? Then there's no point in restorative justice. The goal, in my mind, is not to have "affirmative repercussions for offenders". The goal is build a healthy and vibrant community with mutually interconnected bonds. As a microcosm, Carol and I represent a very tight community. She doesn't transgress because she cares about the community. If she does, in some sense, transgress punishing her simply drives a wedge between us and in so doing, damages the whole community. So instead, we talk about it. She comes to understand the damage she has done and I understand why she did it. Changes occur as needed on both sides. The goal is all about the community, not the individuals. What makes that work so effectively for us is how tight the bi-directional bonds between us are. In a less focused sense, I think you can extrapolate that out to a larger community and the idea of restorative justice.

Note that under no circumstances should you read my post to think I am advocating "not banning". I'm grappling with something that I can barely get my head around (due to lack of expertise) in the underlying social fabric. But yeah, when someone proves that they are uninterested in the community and it's health then they have also declared that they are, by their own lights, not a member of that community and the community MUST reject them. The question is more, "What did we do before that point?" and even more urgently, "How do we frame the problem and opportunity?"

In my recollection of the restorative justice stuff, the transgressors were not even remotely treated like we'd treat an American criminal... the entire framework was different.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 7/4/2016 10:57:25 AM >

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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 2:00:15 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't think you can do this in a kink group.
When my then teen had a DUI he had to attend 18 months of once a week meetings. A four month DMV course after the 18 month alcohol education course ended. These things cost a lot of money. Now they do cost the state less than incarceration, and he had to pay for the DMV course but primarily those monies went to the venue for rent of a meeting room.

And if the educator had viewed him as not being ready to get back his license, he wouldn't have.

A small group can't afford this. Nor do they have the power to enforce it. Do you have a therapist who is part of the group who is able to explain consent and who will decide whether, in their opinion, this person should be let back in after six months of therapy has gone by.

But then that therapist is at risk of being outed. So you need someone not associated with the group with a knowledge of kink. And if they do not recommend readmission to the group, how can they be protected from being sued by the offender on specious grounds. Or being investigated by their licensing board?

The state can do this where a private organization cannot.

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Profile   Post #: 12
RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/4/2016 2:45:50 PM   
DocStrange


Posts: 1076
Joined: 6/10/2015
Status: offline 		I agree with DesFIP,
I do not see how it would be possible to enforce restorative justice. The concept is not bad, just that there is not support network to make it happen. This requires people's time and money. And it would only work at a club or regular events, no one off parties or infrequent parties.

Another poster made a comment about not believing how some teenagers have no common sense. I hate to say it, but many adults have no common sense. If you manage people in your daily job, you know what I mean. The fact I had to tell a 45 year old man with 26 years of service he cannot give friendly pats on the butt to his female or male coworkers is hard to believe. And even after being warned he kept doing it. Finally I had to fire him due to complaints from coworkers.

Rather than restorative justice I wonder if money and time would be better spent on educating the public? Not only having flyers that says what you can and cannot do. But if you are a new person to the club or venue, being personally told by staff members what the rules are? Having to sign a form of acknowledgment of the rules? Making it clear you will be banned or even worse (arrested?) if you violate the rules. History has proven that education and prevention works better than punishment to decrease crime.

I say this more of any outsider as an idea. While I have been a kinkster for 30+ years, I am not a regular at kink community gatherings. I attend a few parties a year. It is not like I am going to the club weekly or attending many events like some of the regulars here.



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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/5/2016 1:21:04 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


quote:

I think of there being two kinds of violation in kink:

1. The offender was dumb and didn't know better.
2. The offender knew full well what they were doing.

I could not agree with this more. Even with the harsh stance that I have against offenders, I'm still aware that we have to include those situations where we look at things like honest mistakes, accidents, miscommunication, and dozens of other potential factors. While most people might see my comments as conveyed differently, I'm really not trying to see this area as a blanket approach. It has to be a case by case basis.

quote:

In case #1, the correct thing is to check with the victim - would they want the offender banned from that venue? If so, sit down with the offender, explain what was wrong, and that they are banned but welcome to go to other venues but never to repeat the offense again there. If the victim would be okay with the offender coming back, then sit down with the offender, explain what was wrong, and that they are never to reoffend again.

As stated in the original, I feel the victim has to have some kind of input for restorative justice to work. It's not up to Joe Shmoe to decide 'it wasn't that bad'. (I honestly can't stand that expression anymore.) This doesn't mean that we're trying to force the victim, at any point, to be in the same room with the offender. If that option isn't acceptable, we will (hopefully) look at other methods.

quote:

In case #2, ban.

That's for serious offenses. For minor stuff like touching someone else's implements, sit down and explain a time or two, and then ban.

The problem is that I know of some people that continue to offend (#2). Some have been doing this for years without serious consequence. Restorative justice will simply waste everyone's time and allow the offender to say a few lies, cry a few tears, and then remain active in the community, harassing other people.

We were both commenting on a situation not long ago where it was a pretty clear case of #2. When somebody has been pulling the same MO for years, I just don't see re-education as a possibility. Sorry/not sorry, but "no" is a pretty simplistic word in the human language. You teach a two year old what the word "no" means. Not some 40 year+ human.

....


I have seen some serious 'faux pas' in my day. Where someone was mentored wrong in isolation from the community at large and then made their debut only to insult or injure someone. One guy who met some 'expert' in a yahoo group, hooked in person to get coached. He never learned that hooking up with a strange volunteer bottom in a public dungeon for the first time meant the presumption of no permanent scars. It was knife play on her back so she didn't realize until it was too late. I've heard of a few similar stories like hooking first time, getting them bound and burning them with cigars or putting out cigarettes, leaving scars.

So they were taught wrong. Do they technically fall into the "dumb and didn't know better" category? Or do they just fall into a third category; "way too stupid to be let loose on our community" and should be insta-banned?

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 7/5/2016 1:22:23 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/5/2016 8:25:36 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Add to this the fact that some communities don't enforce their rules. If the organizer feels free transgressing, then how can they not expect the other members to do the same?

If the group organizers do adhere to the rules they set out, then instead of 'sign here' there ought to be a new member required educational session prior to attending the first party. Hold it half an hour ahead, have a power point type presentation with time for people to ask questions every step of the way.

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RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/5/2016 8:31:54 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Trimming some of this down to address certain parts.
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
And again, I think the entire mental framework is wrong. How about, "We should ban because the offender has clearly and unequivocally demonstrated that they have no interest in being a member of the community. In all other cases, we should enfold and nurture because the transgressor is also a part of the community and therefor the community must also care about him/her. This part of my half-formed assessment is deep water and I think an expert's view on this is critical. The american psyche has got some fundamental issues that need to be addressed before anything like this can hope to succeed.

Here's a definite hang up because there are two different mindsets at play, even though the surface desire looks the same. You have a) people who actually want to be a part of the community and b) those people who just want the opportunities that the community affords them. If you've got an actual predator, one of the benefits of the privilege to attend events within the community is the ability to look for prey. That's not necessarily a person who has a vested interest in the community, itself. Huge motivation for self interest but not the same thing at all.

Of course, that's a certain type of hypothetical, focused on a nefarious motivation. People tend to have multiple motivations for most social situations. However, especially in the kink community, there's a lot of self interest, which is why that old expression about ten percent of the people doing ninety percent of the work tends to hold true in a lot of the groups just about anywhere you find them.

quote:

So then... crime & punishment... classic American criminal justice thinking? Then there's no point in restorative justice. The goal, in my mind, is not to have "affirmative repercussions for offenders". The goal is build a healthy and vibrant community with mutually interconnected bonds. As a microcosm, Carol and I represent a very tight community. She doesn't transgress because she cares about the community. If she does, in some sense, transgress punishing her simply drives a wedge between us and in so doing, damages the whole community. So instead, we talk about it. She comes to understand the damage she has done and I understand why she did it. Changes occur as needed on both sides. The goal is all about the community, not the individuals. What makes that work so effectively for us is how tight the bi-directional bonds between us are. In a less focused sense, I think you can extrapolate that out to a larger community and the idea of restorative justice.

This was kind of neat, though I have to admit it brings something to mind. Most of the things that I've seen people permanently banned for, aside from severe accidents, are things that if you or Carol did to each other, would be a pretty good indication that whichever of you did the actions, no longer wanted to be in the relationship, anyway.

quote:

Note that under no circumstances should you read my post to think I am advocating "not banning". I'm grappling with something that I can barely get my head around (due to lack of expertise) in the underlying social fabric. But yeah, when someone proves that they are uninterested in the community and it's health then they have also declared that they are, by their own lights, not a member of that community and the community MUST reject them. The question is more, "What did we do before that point?" and even more urgently, "How do we frame the problem and opportunity?"

That's always the question, isn't it?

Where I'm at right now, (and I'll be honest, I was doing other things besides reading and research yesterday) would still be that restorative justice has a shot in minor situations, but not major ones. Serial offenders, whether they have one victim with multiple incidents or multiple victims with singular incidents, I don't have a lot of hope for chance of reform.



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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/5/2016 9:34:54 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
A small group can't afford this. Nor do they have the power to enforce it.

A small group can only make requirements as related to the group. In temporary suspension situations, they can make provisions that a person is not allowed to return for a minimum of X amount of time, which the group has the right to extend if Person A breaks any of the conditions that the group lays down. You can also put conditions on any member that they have to fulfill before they return, such as attending orientation again, the vetting process, or a probationary period prior to returning to play events.

quote:

Do you have a therapist who is part of the group who is able to explain consent and who will decide whether, in their opinion, this person should be let back in after six months of therapy has gone by.

Not a therapist but something that would be a group decision. If you really have a person that's been suspended or banned, you really don't have to tell a person why they are no longer admitted to events. NCSF actually recommends that you don't. (To be quite honest, I've never seen a situation that I've been connected to in any way where the offender did not know what they did. I've seen some excuse the behavior, but never anyone who was not aware of what they actually did.)

quote:

But then that therapist is at risk of being outed. So you need someone not associated with the group with a knowledge of kink. And if they do not recommend readmission to the group, how can they be protected from being sued by the offender on specious grounds. Or being investigated by their licensing board?

Because it doesn't have to be a therapist that recommends to the group that the person not be allowed back. If you have a second victim that surfaces, electronic information of additional problems, or anything related to continued problem behavior, anybody can take that to the group. Anything that Person A does that is against what the group has put down as a condition of returning that's been violated, they don't come back.

quote:

The state can do this where a private organization cannot.

In some ways, this is right. However, small groups also don't have to set the bar as high as the state does when it comes to allowing a person to attend *if* they have evidence of the transgression.

quote:

Add to this the fact that some communities don't enforce their rules. If the organizer feels free transgressing, then how can they not expect the other members to do the same?

Restorative justice aside, this is a very big deal. When it's the organizer, munch leader, host, etc who is the person who is transgressing, what do you do? The reason the DM at the former GLS Studios got away with what was happening for so long was because the venue allowed to to continue. That ended up having an awful impact on everyone.

quote:

If the group organizers do adhere to the rules they set out, then instead of 'sign here' there ought to be a new member required educational session prior to attending the first party. Hold it half an hour ahead, have a power point type presentation with time for people to ask questions every step of the way.

This is just my personal observation. I do see more groups and clubs holding mandatory orientation prior to play event entry than I did ten years ago. I was at a club out of town just a few months ago and I have to tell you, I was darn impressed. They were very specific on the areas of just what they will revoke your membership for. I thought they did a great job of it.




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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/5/2016 7:21:24 PM   
littleclip


Posts: 869
Joined: 5/31/2012
Status: offline 		yes like jeff said this would be a tool that a community could use if the community was a part of it. in the native culture where this is based on it is not just a group responsibility to correct the individual also a group or shared fault in not having given the individual the correct training and guidance in the first place.
the tribe is as a group is the part and the whole in tribal groupings the social fabric is of tribe first. in the kink community there is no one way of doing anything so applying a tool made for a ford and trying to get it to work on a import just wont work.
as for banning from a group i know of one instance where person x was banned and after some investigating of facts the person x was allowed to return to the group and the accuser was banned, this after actions of the accuser by several members of the group.
with the bdsm groups it is up to each group to make and enforce rules that the group abides by if the person is unable to abide or unwilling then the group must enforce the rules.




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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/5/2016 9:59:47 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littleclip
In the kink community there is no one way of doing anything so applying a tool made for a ford and trying to get it to work on a import just wont work.

I don't think that different standards is the core of the problem. I think it's the lack of those community bonds which, in my opinion, power the whole thing. It'd be like trying to get Carol to obey me if she didn't give a rat's ass what I thought nor did she respect my opinion. I do think that some sub-group of our local BDSM scene could form an actual community though if they chose and then implement these tools within it. It wouldn't be easy because you'd be bucking a lot of cultural trends... particularly in the US. But I think it could be done.

quote:

as for banning from a group i know of one instance where person x was banned and after some investigating of facts the person x was allowed to return to the group and the accuser was banned, this after actions of the accuser by several members of the group.

We had a kerfluffle here that involved [badly] forged images among other things. That's another part of the problem. Any judicial system is going to require some investigative process. The kink community doesn't have one. So it turns into "People's Court & Judge Judy" with a ton of he-said, she-said.

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: For Discussion - Restorative Justice in Kink Commun... - 7/9/2016 3:52:52 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		<Fast Reply>

I know of one instance where, after the person had been banned from the group, this guy started crashing 'meet and greet' type coffees. It was a horrible mess. The guy thought his banning had been removed because he kept showing up at Barnes and Noble and thought that meant he was welcome back in the community.

He had one sympathizer, because the woman he was stalker to was in a new (relationship) with the sympathizer's former ex. Unfortunately, that person was on the board. That person had a brain injury from a car accident, so she was easily manipulated.

How does restorative justice work in cases like this? When a person goes out of their way to manipulate, out, and terrorize another person? When there is no possibility of restitution?

Documents available upon request.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 7/9/2016 3:55:06 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 20
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