RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!"

RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (Full Version)

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ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 9:01:44 AM)
quote: Dizzy, I disagree with you here. You are free to do so, yet you are incorrect. Mainstream feminism stands for gender equality, so if you actually do want gender equality, they are your allies. However it seems that most people advocating for men are in fact not interested in equality at all.

ManOeuvre -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 10:25:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: Dizzy, I disagree with you here. You are free to do so, yet you are incorrect. Mainstream feminism stands for gender equality, so if you actually do want gender equality, they are your allies. However it seems that most people advocating for men are in fact not interested in equality at all. Alright Dizzy, you tell me I'm incorrect, I suppose that means you disagree with me? Some of the people who I listen to, read or converse with from time to time who tell me the opposite. How would a neutral observer go about determining which of these incompatible ideas is closest to the truth? I think it would help one of us see the other's point of view better if the terms were defined with some precision. Rather than recourse to wikipedia, or some other arbiter, can you tell me what you mean by gender equality? I don't think I want to commit to being interested in "equality at all" until I know what I'm getting myself into! I also have a question with regards to what constitutes mainstream feminism. Is the person who penned the article about abolishing custodial sentencing for women a mainstream feminist? She is a professor of social work at the university of Illinois. This doesn't exactly sound like fringe to me, but I don't follow the social sciences terribly closely. My contention with feminism, which I tried to articulate in my initial reply to you, was and is that I think some of the methods that feminism uses or encourages others to use in addressing the male side of gendered issues, or even in some cases individual issues men and boys deal with that have nothing to do with gender per se, are in some cases ineffective, and in others even counter productive. I think this is because many of the techniques, methods, that people attempt to help each other with are frequently themselves much more applicable to one gender than the other, and in some cases can have the opposite from the desired effect.

JeffBC -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 10:33:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre The talking about when rape is OK idea though seems a little out there for the US in 2016. Would you care to point me in the right direction, or did hyperbole get the better of you? http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/what-does-todd-akin-think-legitimate-rape-is That's simply one example that I happened to have the google search terms for. You'd have to basically go over pretty every statement ever made regarding rape and pregnancy/abortion by a conservative politician in order to get the full picture. Sadly, we're not talking "a sweaty, poorly-cut suit-wearing pulpiteer". Rather, we are talking about sitting US state and federal congress people.

Kirata -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 10:37:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre I think it would help one of us see the other's point of view better if the terms were defined with some precision. Rather than recourse to wikipedia, or some other arbiter, can you tell me what you mean by gender equality? I'll second that. How is "gender equality" different from equality, or for that matter how is "social justice" different from justice? I've always been perfectly happy with equality and justice, and suspicious of people who seem to find those terms unsuited to their purposes. K.

ManOeuvre -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 11:04:11 AM)
Wow. quote: External Site, Todd Akin Well you know, people always want to try to make that as one of those things, well how do you, how do you slice this particularly tough sort of ethical question. First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that’s really rare. If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. But let’s assume that maybe that didn’t work or something. I think there should be some punishment, but the punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child. I stand corrected. I read the link. This Todd Akin person comes across as profoundly ignorant, and well-dressed! Every one of those is another callus on the gnarled hands that would draw us back into the blood sacrifice days. I can't quite accuse him of defining when rape would be OK. It seems to me that his use of the word "legitimate", already an overworked word by most politicians, is in the sense of "genuine", "true", "bona fide" or "confirmed" or something like that, and not along the lines of "lawful", "correct", "justified" or "righteous". I feel compelled to extend the most exculpatory interpretations to those with whom I disagree. Something I find very useful when I'm trying to figure what I think about what someone thinks about something based on what they said, is to substitute some of the terms for something a little less inflammatory or a little less controversial. If he were discussing a crime which the jury is not still out on, like theft or murder I think it would be easier to interpret "legitimate" to mean the crime which matches the criteria, rather than eminent domain or a justified killing. While I'm advocating for Lucifer.... The effects of stress, particularly traumatic stress, are negatively correlated with carrying a pregnancy to term.... This is true, but it's also true to say that rape victims who conceive due to rape are likely to find their acne problems clearing up. Not exactly the solid basis on which to draw solutions to the "particularly tough sort of ethical question" that congressmen are supposed to ponder.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 11:05:38 AM)
Ask Arpig about this, he knows where there's a house full of lesbians. Loads of the fuckers.

thompsonx -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 12:22:40 PM)
ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre I'd like to ask you something, thompsonx. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression from your replies to Mr. Scuri that you believe feminism still has some ways to go. Do you believe that women are treated equally in amerika? What does the victory condition look like? What sort of numbers would you wish to see in order to state the following? "Ok, there. Mission accomplished. We have achieved what we set out to achieve." That is an answer you should seek from someone who needs to sit down to pee.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 12:24:23 PM)
quote: My contention with feminism, which I tried to articulate in my initial reply to you, was and is that I think some of the methods that feminism uses or encourages others to use in addressing the male side of gendered issues, or even in some cases individual issues men and boys deal with that have nothing to do with gender per se, are in some cases ineffective, and in others even counter productive. No argument, and there are also some who espouse some truly batshit ideas under the guise of feminism, just as with any ism. However, the fact remains that those feminists, which I maintain is the vast majority, who believe in gender equality are the natural allies of those who wish to eradicate the various forms of discrimination that men face (and I also agree wholeheartedly that such discrimination exists). However, all too often they are painted as the enemy by those advocating for men, and are generally dismissed as non-existent. That is an error, it is both ineffective (as it makes the one doing it look delusional) and counter-productive (as it drives away the largest group of people who believe in gender equality), unless of course gender equality is in fact not what they want.

thompsonx -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 12:25:35 PM)
ORIGINAL: Kirata I'll second that. How is "gender equality" different from equality, or for that matter how is "social justice" different from justice? I've always been perfectly happy with equality and justice, and suspicious of people who seem to find those terms unsuited to their purposes. Kinda like "very unique"?

thompsonx -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 12:36:42 PM)
ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre I feel compelled to extend the most exculpatory interpretations to those with whom I disagree. How would your "most exculpatory interpretation" deal with the following bon mots. I don’t feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them, if that’s what you’re asking. Our so-called stealing of this country from them was just a matter of survival. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves. I believe in white supremacy, until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. … The academic community has developed certain tests that determine whether the blacks are sufficiently equipped scholastically. But some blacks have tried to force the issue and enter college when they haven’t passed the tests and don’t have the requisite background.

JeffBC -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 12:38:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre I stand corrected. I can't quite accuse him of defining when rape would be OK. It seems to me that his use of the word "legitimate", already an overworked word by most politicians, is in the sense of "genuine", "true", "bona fide" or "confirmed" or something like that, and not along the lines of "lawful", "correct", "justified" or "righteous". Sure, but by trying to define rape into some specific set of conditions which are a subset of the conditions which actually occur accomplishes that effect, no? Republicans are well aware that they cannot simply come out and say "rape is fine". So instead, they nickel and dime around the edges, constantly eroding the laws. quote: If he were discussing a crime which the jury is not still out on, like theft or murder I think it would be easier to interpret "legitimate" to mean the crime which matches the criteria, rather than eminent domain or a justified killing. Exactly. The problem is that his definition of the criteria doesn't match the current legal definitions, my definitions, or (IMO) the definition of any sane person. The extra little bit of made-up science is only icing on the already rotted cake. The bigger problem is that he is not alone.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 12:43:40 PM)
quote: How is "gender equality" different from equality, or for that matter how is "social justice" different from justice? Both serve to define the specific aspect of equality or justice that is being focused on. quote: I've always been perfectly happy with equality and justice, and suspicious of people who seem to find those terms unsuited to their purposes. Really? Does this equality you are happy with also include say; income equality, or financial equality? I am sure you favour equality of opportunity, but what about equality of outcome? Is that included in your equality? No, I didn't think so, but that just goes to show that sometimes we need to be specific about just what sort of equality we are discussing.

Kirata -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 1:01:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: I've always been perfectly happy with equality and justice, and suspicious of people who seem to find those terms unsuited to their purposes. Really? Does this equality you are happy with also include say; income equality, or financial equality? I am sure you favour equality of opportunity, but what about equality of outcome? Is that included in your equality? No, I didn't think so, but that just goes to show that sometimes we need to be specific about just what sort of equality we are discussing. That's what I figured... but thanks for confirming my suspicions. K.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 1:06:41 PM)
So you are in fact not actually interested in equality, just in certain forms of it.

Kirata -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 1:20:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick So you are in fact not actually interested in equality, just in certain forms of it. You already confirmed my suspicions above. There's no need to make a fool of yourself. K.

respectmen -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 4:21:25 PM)
Dizzy quote: Mainstream feminism stands for gender equality, so if you actually do want gender equality, they are your allies. If this was the case, we would be seeing feminists protest against men's issues. Issues that only affect men. Can you show me some citations of feminists doing any of the kind?

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 4:39:55 PM)
quote: There's no need to make a fool of yourself. I'm afraid you have the shoe on the wrong foot there.

ManOeuvre -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 5:06:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx What does the victory condition look like? What sort of numbers would you wish to see in order to state the following? "Ok, there. Mission accomplished. We have achieved what we set out to achieve." That is an answer you should seek from someone who needs to sit down to pee. Am I reading this right thompsonx, that the subject must write the sentence? Are you willing to, in the spirit of glasnost extend this concept to men? That is, does it make sense to you that men alone are equipped to comment, opine or attempt to predict just how good or bad their lot is, or ought to be? I want to understand what you mean, and I don't want to misrepresent you. Would you clarify?

ManOeuvre -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 6:24:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx How would your "most exculpatory interpretation" deal with the following bon mots. I don’t feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them, if that’s what you’re asking. Our so-called stealing of this country from them was just a matter of survival. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves. I believe in white supremacy, until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. … The academic community has developed certain tests that determine whether the blacks are sufficiently equipped scholastically. But some blacks have tried to force the issue and enter college when they haven’t passed the tests and don’t have the requisite background. I would love to answer you, thompsonx, but I'm concerned this may not be the best thread for it, so I'll stick to the first one. It's also the one that I have pondered a little more frequently during my life thus far. The first thing I have to say about this quotation, is that it seems impossibly inaccurate, unless the speaker/writer was alive during the age of colonialism and/or westward expansion. It seems to me that it should read "our ancestors" & "the Indians' ancestors". Replacing the subjects of these sentences is not simply a matter of semantics. There is a huge difference between the crimes of the fathers and the crimes of the sons. The second thing I have to saw about this quotation, is that broadly speaking, it's true. "Needed" and "selfishly" come across as very subjective descriptions, but there was a conflict, and one of the sides was better equipped than the other, and prevailed. In the new world, as in the old world, 99% of human history was that of a life nasty, brutish and short. I am under none of Karl May's illusions that my father's ancestors, as opposed to my mother's, were hippies, frolicking about their utopia, interrupting their lacrosse games only for feasts and orgies. There was as much warring, conquest, displacement, extermination, enslavement and rape in the americas as the technology allowed. H. sapiens did this more often than not. The history of humanity, until very recently is the history of sadness and darkness. A few flickers of light in the middle east, India and China nearly burned through this fog, but always burned out or were snuffed. I believe it was the happy accident of having the combination of a printing press, a script amenable to movable type and inheriting a skeptical philosophical tradition (which only barely survived via proxy in arabic) which finally led to the critical mass needed for a light that now belongs to every person on this planet who can read. Yes, I think it's a shame that some of the earliest bearers of what would become this light were members of a society slow to take to it, and it's a shame that 2nd millennium european colonialism had a head start on the enlightenment. As to when the enlightenment caught up, some people say 1776, others say 1865, some say 1964. I have as much time for either self-pity or guilt about thunder-sticks, smallpox and firewater as I do for the modern racists who rank injuns somewhere between neanderthal and orang-outan. I'm in the solutions business.

thompsonx -> RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" (7/8/2016 7:24:00 PM)
ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre ORIGINAL: thompsonx What does the victory condition look like? What sort of numbers would you wish to see in order to state the following? "Ok, there. Mission accomplished. We have achieved what we set out to achieve." That is an answer you should seek from someone who needs to sit down to pee. Am I reading this right thompsonx, that the subject must write the sentence? I have no clue what you are reading. Are you willing to, in the spirit of glasnost extend this concept to men? That is, does it make sense to you that men alone are equipped to comment, opine or attempt to predict just how good or bad their lot is, or ought to be? Why are you changing the subject? I want to understand what you mean, and I don't want to misrepresent you. Would you clarify? This would seem to be a women's issue would it not? Would it not be appropriate that those who have a complaint be the ones to set forth the issues involved and what constituted a resolution of those issues?

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