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Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/14/2016 5:36:37 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Is China calling the world's bluff on any 'Law of the Sea ?' Highlites:

The unanimous ruling, by a five-judge tribunal in The Hague, was more favorable toward the Philippines and broader in scope than experts had predicted. It said that under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, China had no legal basis to claim historic rights over most of the waterway, which is rich in resources and carries $5 trillion in annual trade.

The judges ruled for the Philippines on most claims in its complaint: China had indeed violated international law by causing “irreparable harm” to the marine environment, endangering ships and interfering with Philippine fishing and oil exploration. Further, China had illegally built an artificial island on Mischief Reef, complete with a military airstrip, in waters belonging to the Philippines.

What will the US do ? Should the US actually take any military action if China forces our hand ?

HERE

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/14/2016 7:41:45 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Military action ? Nobody with a brain supports that - we couldn't even handle Iraq. It cost ten times the fortune they thought and accomplished bupkis. (that means less that nothing) Iraq 2 was over them switching to the euro and to support the petrobuck, but now BRICS has literally declared war on the petrobuck. And Iraq did not used to have terrorists, but they do now. Is that a success ? And how much did it cost ? And these assholes want to attack Iran ? The US would be in receivership.

And China ? Bullies only pick on those smaller and weaker. We got more weapons but not the best weapons. China has its own parallel system of satellites and the ability to knock ours out from the ground.

What's more, I doubt that there is much international law established about the whole issue of creating an island. So the whole premise for an attack is on very shaky ground in the first place. Seriously, who the fuck said you can't make an island ?

One thing to establish is if it is within the 12 mile limit, does it extend the jurisdiction of that country ? If outside the 12 mile limit, then maybe it shouldn't. If so they could make an island in the Gulf Of Mexico and have quite the advantage, though the US would bomb it out of existence.

The US simply needs to stay the fuck out of this. If action is to be taken, let the people who need to take it, take it. We got to get out of this attitude that we are the world's police. And attacking a country with three times the population and is allied with Russia which makes some of the best weapons in the world ain't exactly smart.

T^T

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 12:43:03 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Is China calling the world's bluff on any 'Law of the Sea ?' Highlites:
The unanimous ruling, by a five-judge tribunal in The Hague, was more favorable toward the Philippines and broader in scope than experts had predicted. It said that under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, China had no legal basis to claim historic rights over most of the waterway, which is rich in resources and carries $5 trillion in annual trade.
The judges ruled for the Philippines on most claims in its complaint: China had indeed violated international law by causing “irreparable harm” to the marine environment, endangering ships and interfering with Philippine fishing and oil exploration. Further, China had illegally built an artificial island on Mischief Reef, complete with a military airstrip, in waters belonging to the Philippines.
What will the US do ? Should the US actually take any military action if China forces our hand ?
HERE


What do you mean by "forces our hand?" This wasn't a US decision.




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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 1:26:03 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		This is very interesting actually.

My country is in a precarious position because we are trying not to take sides. We keep a good relationship with all countries at odds at each other.
US heavily supports Philippines and are often hostile to China.

But knowing China the way they are. I wonder what they are gonna do next.

Currently, also in Taiwan, there is so much power struggle with the new President in Taiwan and China being extremely unhappy that the New President pushes independence notions.

My position for both Hong Kong and Taiwan is that, China should just let them go and not hang on to them. Give them their independence!



(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 1:52:44 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		There are reasons, first of all most world leaders are what's called colonialists. That means want to take over. Also, certain places have a tactical advantage for when the last war starts. They get no choice whether missile bases are there.

T^T

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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 5:09:59 AM   
blnymph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
What's more, I doubt that there is much international law established about the whole issue of creating an island. So the whole premise for an attack is on very shaky ground in the first place.



Yes there is - and still disputed. It is more or less all about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano_Islands_Act

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 7:31:13 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Is China calling the world's bluff on any 'Law of the Sea ?' Highlites:
The unanimous ruling, by a five-judge tribunal in The Hague, was more favorable toward the Philippines and broader in scope than experts had predicted. It said that under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, China had no legal basis to claim historic rights over most of the waterway, which is rich in resources and carries $5 trillion in annual trade.
The judges ruled for the Philippines on most claims in its complaint: China had indeed violated international law by causing “irreparable harm” to the marine environment, endangering ships and interfering with Philippine fishing and oil exploration. Further, China had illegally built an artificial island on Mischief Reef, complete with a military airstrip, in waters belonging to the Philippines.
What will the US do ? Should the US actually take any military action if China forces our hand ?
HERE


What do you mean by "forces our hand?" This wasn't a US decision.




Well that may have been a bad choice of words. But the US does have an interest in preserving open waters and the UN regime on the Law of the Seas. Then there are our alliances to the extant we have any that may or may not rise to the level of requiring us to take some action should China get belligerent.

Next could be the Philippine Sea and Taiwan so, that's the question as much as anything.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 7:41:01 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		1) there is no meaningful (enforceable) international law

2) China is big. And powerful.

3) she's gonna wanna have dominance over her own waters (as she sees them) in her corner of the world (imagine China owned Cuba . . .)

4) while the US can rightfully say it dominants the seas, ships fuel and manpower cost money, and dedicating resources somewhere takes them from elsewhere.

Anything from there happens within that context.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 7:48:59 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		They do not support the Falkland islands, Gibraltar too probably, or is that half the western world, yet they were fine taking Hong Kong back. China claimed right up to about 5 countries beaches - I peed myself when I saw the red line(territory). You would have just about been able to paddle out knee deep in those countries sea before china launched a sortie - from their artificial island.

Problem with territory - is how far do you go back in time - not that anyone would want 320 million americans.


A senior Chinese official has said China has the right to set up an air defence zone over territory it claims in the South China Sea.
The statement from Vice-Foreign Minister Liu Zhenmin comes a day after an international tribunal said there was no legal basis for China's claims.
China has overlapping claims with other countries to reefs and islands across almost all of the South China Sea.
It has already said it will ignore the tribunal's findings.
President Xi Jinping has said China's "territorial sovereignty and marine rights" in the seas will not be affected by the ruling "in any way".

< Message edited by WickedsDesire -- 7/15/2016 8:00:37 AM >

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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 7:54:09 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

This is very interesting actually.

My country is in a precarious position because we are trying not to take sides. We keep a good relationship with all countries at odds at each other.
US heavily supports Philippines and are often hostile to China.

But knowing China the way they are. I wonder what they are gonna do next.

Currently, also in Taiwan, there is so much power struggle with the new President in Taiwan and China being extremely unhappy that the New President pushes independence notions.

My position for both Hong Kong and Taiwan is that, China should just let them go and not hang on to them. Give them their independence!




Trouble is that if you are going to be a corrupt communism or a corrupt state capitalism to the extant China is and out to acquire resources financially...you need those taxes and hegemony to survive. Never mind that China has never for even 1 day...ruled Taiwan.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/15/2016 8:00:48 AM >

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 9:37:57 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

1) there is no meaningful (enforceable) international law


Actually like any other 'law,' it is enforceable...if anyone chooses to.

However, you would be correct within the context of there being anyone or any country but the US and anyone capable at all and would only likely even try this, if member countries would also send ships.

This is as likely yet another area where along with UN resolutions, there is little behind this regime...or them.


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 9:44:33 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
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quote:

What will the US do ?

Nothing substantial.

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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 7:05:42 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
What's more, I doubt that there is much international law established about the whole issue of creating an island. So the whole premise for an attack is on very shaky ground in the first place.



Yes there is - and still disputed. It is more or less all about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano_Islands_Act



I meant international law. Law of the US is not international law. And that act is just another piece of colonialist shit - that they can simply take possession.

No wonder the world loves us so much.

T^T

(in reply to blnymph)
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/15/2016 8:13:44 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: Greta75

This is very interesting actually.

My country is in a precarious position because we are trying not to take sides.

Is tht why that third world shithole called singapore buys it's military hardware from amerika?


We keep a good relationship with all countries at odds at each other.
US heavily supports Philippines and are often hostile to China.

But knowing China the way they are. I wonder what they are gonna do next.

Currently, also in Taiwan, there is so much power struggle with the new President in Taiwan and China being extremely unhappy that the New President pushes independence notions.

My position for both Hong Kong and Taiwan is that, China should just let them go and not hang on to them. Give them their independence!


Why do you think china should give up some of it's country?
Which part of that third world shithole singapore would you be willing to give up?
Where do you get off telling someone that they ought to give up some of their stuff? How would you feel if you were told you had to loose weight,give up your skates and never chew gum again?



(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/16/2016 1:37:32 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Is China calling the world's bluff on any 'Law of the Sea ?' Highlites:
The unanimous ruling, by a five-judge tribunal in The Hague, was more favorable toward the Philippines and broader in scope than experts had predicted. It said that under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, China had no legal basis to claim historic rights over most of the waterway, which is rich in resources and carries $5 trillion in annual trade.
The judges ruled for the Philippines on most claims in its complaint: China had indeed violated international law by causing “irreparable harm” to the marine environment, endangering ships and interfering with Philippine fishing and oil exploration. Further, China had illegally built an artificial island on Mischief Reef, complete with a military airstrip, in waters belonging to the Philippines.
What will the US do ? Should the US actually take any military action if China forces our hand ?
HERE

What do you mean by "forces our hand?" This wasn't a US decision.

Well that may have been a bad choice of words. But the US does have an interest in preserving open waters and the UN regime on the Law of the Seas. Then there are our alliances to the extant we have any that may or may not rise to the level of requiring us to take some action should China get belligerent.
Next could be the Philippine Sea and Taiwan so, that's the question as much as anything.


Hell, the Chinese government is already working on Taiwan.

But, again, this is not something for the US to decide.

1. What do YOU think the US will do?
2. What do YOU think the US should do?

My responses to those two questions are:

1. Sabre rattling.
2. Let the UN do it's job. Isn't this sort of thing the reason we have the UN?




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/16/2016 1:43:56 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Greta75

This is very interesting actually.

My country is in a precarious position because we are trying not to take sides.

Is tht why that third world shithole called singapore buys it's military hardware from amerika?

Purchasing weapons from the US has nothing to do with taking sides. US has the best military weapons for sale, we will buy from them. We will buy from China whatever they do good at as well. We bought shitty trains from them and gotta send them all back because they were defect! I am quite annoyed my country is buying from China. We used to buy trains from Germany and Japan and ZERO defects. Anyway, I have no idea why are you so bitter that we can afford to spend multi millions on military weapons. If we can afford them without putting our own country in debt, what's the problem? And I think I can only expect Made in China military weapons to be completely defective as well. Maybe North Korea is buying from China, that's why their weapons keep breaking down.
quote:

Why do you think china should give up some of it's country?
Which part of that third world shithole singapore would you be willing to give up?
Where do you get off telling someone that they ought to give up some of their stuff? How would you feel if you were told you had to loose weight,give up your skates and never chew gum again?

Because the people inside of Taiwan and Hong Kong wants their independence, and have been independent FROM China for so many years without needing China. China is just being greedy.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/16/2016 1:53:36 AM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/16/2016 3:34:53 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"US has the best military weapons for sale, we will buy from them. "

Not no mo. Just more of them.

T^T

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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/16/2016 6:36:35 AM   
Cinnamongirl67


Posts: 854
Status: offline 		We can't fight everyone's battles.
One simple thing can be done. Quit buying their products. This would make a huge impact.

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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/16/2016 8:05:47 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Believe it or not the US is not their biggest part of their market. Europe, India, they buy more. Middle east, not so much.

They can get along just fine without us, but the opposite is not true because we have lost the ability to manufacture many things. Think they don't know that ? So keep fucking with them and watch them get a whole lot more belligerent to us.

T^T

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RE: Testing the Rule of Law in the South China Sea - 7/16/2016 9:17:45 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		I think there are several scenarios.

- What is the UN going to do? If they decide to hold the area, then the US will be involved militarily.
- If China backs down, then there is nothing to do.
- If whomever, I didn't read that part, has ownership sends in troops and there is fighting, it will depend on what our treaties say we do.
- Wait for ISIS to occupy the land and watch China and ISIS go to it. I see this as a possibility because of ISIS growing influence in the area.
- Watch all the other countries that lay claim to the area go at it (probably conflicting treaties with them).

Only time will tell.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 20
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