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RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 4:49:08 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Being an ex-felon, means he has "paid" his debt to society, thats why they call it EX... WHy shouldnt they get their rights back?
like your EX spouse, you have to live with the fact that you made a mistake, but they are not your spouse.

Btw, Recidivism rates are what?????? It still leaves most of those convicts without a vote because "someone else might repeat their crime".
Why is there recidivism???
Obviously some people will commit crime no matter their social standing, or economic status, or even their mental status, otherwise only poor people would be in jailOh and not all EX felons are violent.

Recidivism occurs for many reasons. Start a thread. But the topic is voting. It started with MrRogers skewed logic regarding ex-convicts so:

TRUSTING A FELON'S JUDGEMENT
CON: "We don't let children vote, for instance, or noncitizens, or the mentally incompetent. Why? Because we don't trust them and their judgment...
So the question is, do criminals belong in that category? And I think the answer is clearly yes. People who commit serious crimes have shown that they are not trustworthy."
Roger Clegg, JD
President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity
Debate held by the Legal Affairs Debate Club
Nov. 1, 2004

FELON DISENFRANCHISEMENT AND RACE
CON: "Upon my election as attorney general, I inherited clemency rules that allowed the vast majority of felons to have their civil rights restored upon the completion of their criminal sentence, without the need to apply and without any mandatory waiting period...

Last week [Florida]... reinstated a requirement that those seeking restoration submit an application and imposed a minimum five-year waiting period…

For those who may suggest that these rule changes have anything to do with race, these assertions are completely unfounded. Justice has nothing to do with race. In a recent case, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals examined the historical record and soundly rejected the argument that Florida's prohibition on felon voting was originally motivated by racial discrimination."
Pam Bondi, JD
Florida Attorney General
"Clemency Shift Upholds Rule of Law,"
www.tampabay.com
Mar. 16, 2011

CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY OVER VOTING
CON: "Most prominently, the 14th Amendment makes felon voting a state prerogative, not a federal one...
The senators' bill [Count Every Vote Act of 2005], by contrast, tosses out the Constitution and declares in no uncertain terms that felon voting should be a federal issue...
If voters choose to change state laws regarding felons and voting, it's their prerogative. Federalism allows for such state-level experimentation, and it's at the state level where the consequences of new felon-voting laws will best be judged. Congress should let the process play itself out, as the Constitution allows it to."
Washington Times
"Felons and Democratic Politicking,"
www.washingtontimes.com
Mar. 8, 2005

The VOTING RIGHTS ACT OF 1965
CON: "The Court of Appeals (José A. Cabranes, Circuit Judge) concludes that the Voting Rights Act must be construed to not encompass prisoner disenfranchisement provisions such as that of New York because (a) Congress did not intend the Voting Rights Act to cover such provisions and (b) Congress made no clear statement indicating an intent to modify the federal balance by applying the Voting Rights Act to these provisions...
[T]here are persuasive reasons to believe that Congress did not intend to include felon disenfranchisement provisions within the coverage of the Voting Rights Act, and we must therefore look beyond the plain text of the statute in construing the reach of its provisions...
We therefore conclude that [The Voting Rights Act] was not intended to - and thus does not - encompass felon disenfranchisement provisions."
Hayden v. Pataki (404 KB)
8-5 decision
United States Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit
May 4, 2006

CONSTITUTIONALITY
CON: "Unlike any other voting qualification, felon disenfranchisement laws are explicitly endorsed by the text of the Fourteenth Amendment.... They are presumptively constitutional. Only a narrow subset of them - those enacted with an invidious, racially discriminatory purpose - is unconstitutional."

Alex Kozinski, JD
Circuit Judge, U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals
Dissent (97 KB) in Farrakhan v. State of Washington
Feb. 24, 2006

VOTING WHILE IN PRISON:
CON: "[P]rison is meant to be a punishment. A custodial sentence has always resulted in loss of freedom and loss of democratic rights for the duration of a prisoner's sentence. Why change that?...
The main point of a prison sentence is to show the offender and society as a whole that criminal behaviour results in loss of freedom and most of the rights that freedom offers."
Jonathan Aitken, JD
Member of British Parliament and a convicted felon
"Prisoners Don't Care About Their Right to Vote,"
UK Telegraph,
Dec. 15, 2006

AUTOMATIC RESTORATION OF THE VOTE
CON: "Felons seeking restoration of rights will also be required to demonstrate that they desire and deserve clemency by applying only after they have shown they are willing to abide by the law...

Restoration of civil rights will not be granted ‘automatically’ for any offenses...

The Restoration of Civil Rights can be a significant part of the rehabilitation of criminal offenders and can assist them in reentry into society. It is important that this form of clemency be granted in a deliberate, thoughtful manner that prioritizes public safety and creates incentives to avoid criminal activity."
Rick Scott, JD
Governor of Florida
"Governor Scott and Florida Cabinet Discuss Amended Rules of Executive Clemency,"
fpc.state.fl.us
Mar. 9, 2011

VOTING BEFORE FINES AND RESTITUTION PAID
CON: "Felons seeking restoration of rights will also be required to demonstrate that they desire and deserve clemency by applying only after they have shown they are willing to abide by the law...

Restoration of civil rights will not be granted ‘automatically’ for any offenses...

The Restoration of Civil Rights can be a significant part of the rehabilitation of criminal offenders and can assist them in reentry into society. It is important that this form of clemency be granted in a deliberate, thoughtful manner that prioritizes public safety and creates incentives to avoid criminal activity."
Rick Scott, JD
Governor of Florida
"Governor Scott and Florida Cabinet Discuss Amended Rules of Executive Clemency,"
fpc.state.fl.us
Mar. 9, 2011

SOCIAL CONTRACT THEORY
CON: "As a policy justification, Locke's social contract theory has withstood the test of time; it served a rationale for the enactment of felon disenfranchisement laws in the past, and remains a compelling argument today.
When someone commits a crime, he commits it not just against the victim, but against our entire society. Protests that time served is enough, and that society should prioritize the rehabilitation and reintegration of felons should fall on deaf ears.
Opponents of disenfranchisement claim that the inability to vote stymies felons' 'remittance into a law-abiding society.' Yet they neglect to explain why the tonic of voting did not curtail felons from committing crimes initially."
George Brooks, JD
Attorney
"Felon Disenfranchisement: Law, History, Policy, and Politics,"
Fordham Urban Law Journal
2005

(I love this last one )
FELONS AND POLITICAL PARTY AFFILIATION
CON: "We know for a fact that nonunion, blue-collar, Caucasian men vote very disproportionately Republican, and when you look at the felon population in the state of Washington, they are overwhelmingly nonunion, blue-collar, male Caucasians."
Paul Berendt
Former Washington State Democratic Party Chairman
"Democrats Flag 743 Votes They Say Felons Cast,"
Seattle Times
May 7, 2005

All of the above...along with PRO arguments can be found here:

http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000283

I agree with the above. You might agree with the pro side.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 8/1/2016 4:50:35 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 5:22:04 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.


Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]

You mean you want a blanket approval of rapists and murderers having a say into who judges are?


God knows it sticks in my craw too, but it goes back essential rights - the rights we should have just because we're human


_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 5:46:04 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		FR
I *think* convicts can't vote in my country. Never thought about the rights of Convicts to vote. But technically, I think it depends on severity of the crime. But generally, a convict already loses their freedom of movement. Why shouldn't they lose their freedom to vote too?

I just double checked. Oh, convicts that are serving more than 12 months sentence here or overseas, or is slated for death penalty, cannot vote.

Okay, on surface seems fair, except, I feel like sex offenders of society should simply be disallowed to vote too! And they may get less than 12 months.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 8/1/2016 5:49:58 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 5:58:24 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.

Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]
Sorry about calling you Whore Mods.

Being an EX-convict does not change the crime that sent you to prison and removed your rights in the first place. Do we need to go into figures for how many of those EX-convicts will have that EX erased from their description sooner rather than later?

Now then...since it was a change to allow ex-CONVICTS to vote and all of those ex-CONVICTS are of different colors, including white...how exactly are the Republicans and the courts being 'racist'?


The crime is irrelevant except that they are all felonies, the level that negates voting rights. Once they paid their debt with probation, what's the big deal ? They never have the EX removed from the life history. If this were guns rights, far more on the right would be all for it.

The racism was implicit in the creation of this limitation in law, and remains today with 200,000 plus in Va. with 120,000 blacks being denied voting rights for any felony charge. 1 in 4 otherwise eligible black voters in Va.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 6:04:13 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.

Let me be sure I have this right.
Mr Rogers is claiming that a provision in a state constitution which has since been replaced (the whole stste constitution, not just the provision) proves that todays rules are racist?

Well no...you 'didn't get this straight.' As I wrote, the 'racist.' repubs sued and the racist courts agreed. I.e., that the governor even having the power to grant such blanket clemency, ruled that he this time, had to do it...on a case by case basis. Why ?

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 6:36:38 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.


Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]

You mean you want a blanket approval of rapists and murderers having a say into who judges are?


God knows it sticks in my craw too, but it goes back essential rights - the rights we should have just because we're human


Here basic rights include travel and firearms ownership why should a conviction inhibit those rights any more that voting rights?

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/1/2016 6:49:25 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 6:41:30 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.

Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]
Sorry about calling you Whore Mods.

Being an EX-convict does not change the crime that sent you to prison and removed your rights in the first place. Do we need to go into figures for how many of those EX-convicts will have that EX erased from their description sooner rather than later?

Now then...since it was a change to allow ex-CONVICTS to vote and all of those ex-CONVICTS are of different colors, including white...how exactly are the Republicans and the courts being 'racist'?


The crime is irrelevant except that they are all felonies, the level that negates voting rights. Once they paid their debt with probation, what's the big deal ? They never have the EX removed from the life history. If this were guns rights, far more on the right would be all for it.

The racism was implicit in the creation of this limitation in law, and remains today with 200,000 plus in Va. with 120,000 blacks being denied voting rights for any felony charge. 1 in 4 otherwise eligible black voters in Va.

If their debt is paid and they now have their rights restored should the government have to return any weapons confiscated ? After all if their rights should be restored they should be restored.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 6:41:30 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
God knows it sticks in my craw too, but it goes back essential rights - the rights we should have just because we're human


Those would be their inalienable rights endowed by by their Creator.

A blanket statement like that, though, can get you into some trouble, PFH. Is a fetus that is the product of a human female's ovum having been fertilized by the sperm of a human male, a "human?" If so, then that fetus has the same "essential" rights, right? That's part of the Pro Life argument.

If a person commits a crime, as punishment, the perp loses many rights, some of which would, presumably, reside in your category of "essential rights." Are we saying the perp is no longer human?

Food for thought.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 6:45:02 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.

Let me be sure I have this right.
Mr Rogers is claiming that a provision in a state constitution which has since been replaced (the whole stste constitution, not just the provision) proves that todays rules are racist?

Well no...you 'didn't get this straight.' As I wrote, the 'racist.' repubs sued and the racist courts agreed. I.e., that the governor even having the power to grant such blanket clemency, ruled that he this time, had to do it...on a case by case basis. Why ?

And since you want felons to vote they are racist. And if that wasn't your point why brong up a law that was repealed 45 years ago?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 6:47:44 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Here basic rights include travel mand firearms ownership why should a conviction inhibit those rights any more that voting rights?

That's too much rights to rapists, molestors and murderers.
My grandfather used to be a head of a gang and was responsible for alot of gang related killings. As a result, he has lost his right to even travel. He can never leave the country. And you know, he made his bed by his choices in the past. This is a grandfather I love and brought me up anyway, and he lived the rest of his life being full time nanny to all his grandchildren, really change diapers and stuffs. As a kid I often wondered why he couldn't travel with us when grandma could. So even if it was my doting grandfather, but I cannot deny his past crimes, and I wouldn't even fight for his rights to travel or vote.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 6:51:35 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If a person commits a crime, as punishment, the perp loses many rights, some of which would, presumably, reside in your category of "essential rights." Are we saying the perp is no longer human?

Food for thought.

This is an easy Yes for me.
When you treat crime and criminals like pariah. Less people will be willing to be associated as being labelled as a "convict" in their resume. It's human nature.

All these kindness things is just perpetrating crime, like oh, it's okay, I will get away with it, the consequences are bearable.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 7:01:21 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.


Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]

You mean you want a blanket approval of rapists and murderers having a say into who judges are?


God knows it sticks in my craw too, but it goes back essential rights - the rights we should have just because we're human

What about just being human is deserving of the right to vote? Children don't have the right. The mentally incompetent don't have the right.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 7:02:32 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Being an ex-felon, means he has "paid" his debt to society, thats why they call it EX... WHy shouldnt they get their rights back?
like your EX spouse, you have to live with the fact that you made a mistake, but they are not your spouse.

Btw, Recidivism rates are what?????? It still leaves most of those convicts without a vote because "someone else might repeat their crime".
Why is there recidivism???
Obviously some people will commit crime no matter their social standing, or economic status, or even their mental status, otherwise only poor people would be in jailOh and not all EX felons are violent.

Recidivism occurs for many reasons. Start a thread. But the topic is voting. It started with MrRogers skewed logic regarding ex-convicts so:

SOCIAL CONTRACT THEORY
CON: "As a policy justification, Locke's social contract theory has withstood the test of time; it served a rationale for the enactment of felon disenfranchisement laws in the past, and remains a compelling argument today.
When someone commits a crime, he commits it not just against the victim, but against our entire society. Protests that time served is enough, and that society should prioritize the rehabilitation and reintegration of felons should fall on deaf ears.
Opponents of disenfranchisement claim that the inability to vote stymies felons' 'remittance into a law-abiding society.' Yet they neglect to explain why the tonic of voting did not curtail felons from committing crimes initially."
George Brooks, JD
Attorney
"Felon Disenfranchisement: Law, History, Policy, and Politics,"
Fordham Urban Law Journal
2005


While half of your thread was not on point, the half that at least partially spoke to Locke's Social Contract Theory. No 'skewed' logic here at all.

Locke on punishment: The marriage of individually enforced punishment with general deterrence has led some critics to suggest that such a system would cause the malfeasor “to be battered again and again for a single dereliction,” a mode of punishment which goes “far beyond the wildest fantasies of the most bloodthirsty retributivist.”

However, the language employed by Locke does not support such a criticism. Locke’s use of the phrases “all reasonable things” and “to deter others” suggests that punishment for criminal punishment was not intended to be indefinite. (i.e., a lifetime ban on voting) Rather, the text of Two Treatises of Government supports the notion that every individual has the right to “punish anyone who does wrong until that wrongdoer has been punished up to a certain point.”

Meaning obviously according to Locke, that having paid a debt to society, voting rights should be restored.

As for Scott, gov. of Florida, '.....be granted in a deliberate, thoughtful manner that prioritizes public safety and creates incentives to avoid criminal activity." You just gotta love that one. Too bad 2nd amend rights aren't held to an equally high standard as Florida's voting rights.


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 7:06:43 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.


Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]

You mean you want a blanket approval of rapists and murderers having a say into who judges are?


God knows it sticks in my craw too, but it goes back essential rights - the rights we should have just because we're human

What about just being human is deserving of the right to vote? Children don't have the right. The mentally incompetent don't have the right.


Obviously, the same laws requiring the subject be of age and literate as in common law...is human enough.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 7:15:18 PM   
MrRodgers


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ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.

Let me be sure I have this right.
Mr Rogers is claiming that a provision in a state constitution which has since been replaced (the whole stste constitution, not just the provision) proves that todays rules are racist?

Well no...you 'didn't get this straight.' As I wrote, the 'racist.' repubs sued and the racist courts agreed. I.e., that the governor even having the power to grant such blanket clemency, ruled that he this time, had to do it...on a case by case basis. Why ?

And since you want felons to vote they are racist. And if that wasn't your point why brong up a law that was repealed 45 years ago?

That voting is a right renders the rest irrelevant. The subject of the OP is not 'a law.' but blanket clemency by a governor clearly empowered to do so. These citizens have paid their debt to society on a criminal level and are now due their right to vote be restored...all of them.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 7:17:09 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.

Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]
Sorry about calling you Whore Mods.

Being an EX-convict does not change the crime that sent you to prison and removed your rights in the first place. Do we need to go into figures for how many of those EX-convicts will have that EX erased from their description sooner rather than later?

Now then...since it was a change to allow ex-CONVICTS to vote and all of those ex-CONVICTS are of different colors, including white...how exactly are the Republicans and the courts being 'racist'?


The crime is irrelevant except that they are all felonies, the level that negates voting rights. Once they paid their debt with probation, what's the big deal ? They never have the EX removed from the life history. If this were guns rights, far more on the right would be all for it.

The racism was implicit in the creation of this limitation in law, and remains today with 200,000 plus in Va. with 120,000 blacks being denied voting rights for any felony charge. 1 in 4 otherwise eligible black voters in Va.

If their debt is paid and they now have their rights restored should the government have to return any weapons confiscated ? After all if their rights should be restored they should be restored.

If the governor has that power...yes.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 7:23:08 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.


Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]

You mean you want a blanket approval of rapists and murderers having a say into who judges are?


God knows it sticks in my craw too, but it goes back essential rights - the rights we should have just because we're human


Here basic rights include travel and firearms ownership why should a conviction inhibit those rights any more that voting rights?

See post 36. and to add to it, it depends on what the gov. of any state is empowered to do and I would argue against a lawsuit against, just as I argue against this one.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 7:54:46 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Being an ex-felon, means he has "paid" his debt to society, thats why they call it EX... WHy shouldnt they get their rights back?
like your EX spouse, you have to live with the fact that you made a mistake, but they are not your spouse.

Btw, Recidivism rates are what?????? It still leaves most of those convicts without a vote because "someone else might repeat their crime".
Why is there recidivism???
Obviously some people will commit crime no matter their social standing, or economic status, or even their mental status, otherwise only poor people would be in jailOh and not all EX felons are violent.

Recidivism occurs for many reasons. Start a thread. But the topic is voting. It started with MrRogers skewed logic regarding ex-convicts so:

SOCIAL CONTRACT THEORY
CON: "As a policy justification, Locke's social contract theory has withstood the test of time; it served a rationale for the enactment of felon disenfranchisement laws in the past, and remains a compelling argument today.
When someone commits a crime, he commits it not just against the victim, but against our entire society. Protests that time served is enough, and that society should prioritize the rehabilitation and reintegration of felons should fall on deaf ears.
Opponents of disenfranchisement claim that the inability to vote stymies felons' 'remittance into a law-abiding society.' Yet they neglect to explain why the tonic of voting did not curtail felons from committing crimes initially."
George Brooks, JD
Attorney
"Felon Disenfranchisement: Law, History, Policy, and Politics,"
Fordham Urban Law Journal
2005


While half of your thread was not on point, the half that at least partially spoke to Locke's Social Contract Theory. No 'skewed' logic here at all.

Locke on punishment: The marriage of individually enforced punishment with general deterrence has led some critics to suggest that such a system would cause the malfeasor “to be battered again and again for a single dereliction,” a mode of punishment which goes “far beyond the wildest fantasies of the most bloodthirsty retributivist.”

However, the language employed by Locke does not support such a criticism. Locke’s use of the phrases “all reasonable things” and “to deter others” suggests that punishment for criminal punishment was not intended to be indefinite. (i.e., a lifetime ban on voting) Rather, the text of Two Treatises of Government supports the notion that every individual has the right to “punish anyone who does wrong until that wrongdoer has been punished up to a certain point.”

Meaning obviously according to Locke, that having paid a debt to society, voting rights should be restored.

As for Scott, gov. of Florida, '.....be granted in a deliberate, thoughtful manner that prioritizes public safety and creates incentives to avoid criminal activity." You just gotta love that one. Too bad 2nd amend rights aren't held to an equally high standard as Florida's voting rights.


I would as soon give a felon a gun as a vote.
You seem to be suffering under the delusion that felons are allowed to legally own guns, they are not, not in Fl, not anywhere.
I wish you put voting rights to as high a standard as you to 2nd amendment rights.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/1/2016 7:57:36 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 9:51:56 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.

Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]
Sorry about calling you Whore Mods.

Being an EX-convict does not change the crime that sent you to prison and removed your rights in the first place. Do we need to go into figures for how many of those EX-convicts will have that EX erased from their description sooner rather than later?

Now then...since it was a change to allow ex-CONVICTS to vote and all of those ex-CONVICTS are of different colors, including white...how exactly are the Republicans and the courts being 'racist'?


The crime is irrelevant except that they are all felonies, the level that negates voting rights. Once they paid their debt with probation, what's the big deal ? They never have the EX removed from the life history. If this were guns rights, far more on the right would be all for it.

The racism was implicit in the creation of this limitation in law, and remains today with 200,000 plus in Va. with 120,000 blacks being denied voting rights for any felony charge. 1 in 4 otherwise eligible black voters in Va.
What a crock of unbelievably TWISTED bullshit overreach on your part.

Racism implicit 114 years ago in a ruling in which the ones involved STATED that they intended to eliminate blacks as a voting faction?
Yes, there was.

Claiming that one ruling equals the other ruling because black EX-CONVICTS are denied the right to vote? So are all the OTHER ed-CONVICTS, no matter their color.
They're not being denied because they're black...because, as you noted, they only make up 25% of the black population in VA (by the way, your figures are wrong. If there are indeed 120,000 black ex-convicts and that equals 25%...1 in 4...of the black population, then there are close to 480,00 blacks in VA., not 200,000). But because they're ex-CONVICTS.
.



(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Voter restrictions are not racist...right ? - 8/1/2016 10:48:44 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That's some strained logic you used to make voting limits racist there, Whore Mods.

In the first place, the law written to keep blacks from voting was written in 1902.

The Virginia Constitution was rewritten 1971 to give the Governor expensive rights, including...presumably...the right to allow blacks to vote. Unless you can come up with some law that SPECIFICALLY says blacks...even without ID...cannot vote? I didn't think so...

This case that you're referring to was trying to restore voting rights to CONVICTS. It wasn't about disenfranchising blacks or poor people or anyone else...it was about restoring voting rights to CONVICTS. Yes, the Republicans disagreed with it. As do I. You want child molesters, rapists, etc having the same rights as you? I don't.

Whore Mods ?

Thus the governor has the power to restore voting rights to all EX-cons who have served their time and are off probation. The 'racist' repubs sued and the 'racist' court agreed...only one at a time. [sic]
Sorry about calling you Whore Mods.

Being an EX-convict does not change the crime that sent you to prison and removed your rights in the first place. Do we need to go into figures for how many of those EX-convicts will have that EX erased from their description sooner rather than later?

Now then...since it was a change to allow ex-CONVICTS to vote and all of those ex-CONVICTS are of different colors, including white...how exactly are the Republicans and the courts being 'racist'?


The crime is irrelevant except that they are all felonies, the level that negates voting rights. Once they paid their debt with probation, what's the big deal ? They never have the EX removed from the life history. If this were guns rights, far more on the right would be all for it.

The racism was implicit in the creation of this limitation in law, and remains today with 200,000 plus in Va. with 120,000 blacks being denied voting rights for any felony charge. 1 in 4 otherwise eligible black voters in Va.

What a crock of unbelievably TWISTED bullshit overreach on your part.

Racism implicit 114 years ago in a ruling in which the ones involved STATED that they intended to eliminate blacks as a voting faction?
Yes, there was.

Claiming that one ruling equals the other ruling because black EX-CONVICTS are denied the right to vote? So are all the OTHER ed-CONVICTS, no matter their color.
They're not being denied because they're black...because, as you noted, they only make up 25% of the black population in VA (by the way, your figures are wrong. If there are indeed 120,000 black ex-convicts and that equals 25%...1 in 4...of the black population, then there are close to 480,00 blacks in VA., not 200,000). But because they're ex-CONVICTS.
.

Man I need to try your drugs.

Approx. 200,000 EX-felons total could have their voting rights restored.

out of which approx. 120,000 are black which is 1 in 4 eligible black voters meaning.....

out of a total 480,000 eligible black voters in Va. not the entire black population of Va..

Forget the fucking numbers. That the white govt. knew exactly what they were doing when they passed the 1902 law even to the point of brazenly saying so, we both agree was patently racist.

Now fast forward to a post 1971 govt. being empowered to grant clemency to ALL EX-felons who have paid their debt to society, I say that clearly the white racists repubs knowing full well that 120,000 black EX-felons could and are very likely to vote democratic in a virtual block, get a clearly racist court not to rule that it.'s constitutional as [it] reads but must be done on a case by case basis in what's clearly a politically wretched attempt to minimize the number of potential dem (read) black voters.

It's rather obvious to me and many other observers and not overreach at all. This shit is going on now all over the country in various forms and has been the white repub political tactic since Nixon's great ' southern strategy' highlighted by his demonizing the black welfare recipients and black welfare 'queens' (mothers) in particular.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 8/1/2016 10:51:21 PM >

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 40
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