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Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 6:39:14 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		I want to make a few points that I never see addressed here.
I don't want to debate whose "fault" it is that millions of Muslims are fleeing into the West.

I want to discuss the idea of acceptance, that the West will be completely and forever changed by what is occurring.
Fact is, they are fleeing, even the men of fighting age don't want to stay in the countries they are fleeing, and few if any of them
will ever want to return.

The western world will be changed forever.
I agree with a lot of what Awareness states, and I agree with a lot of what his distractors are also saying.
** Both sides can be right!**

The problem I have with both sides, is no-one has any idea how things are going to be in the long run.

The point is we don't know what is going to happen in 50-100 years, and there is not much that can be done to change it.
I don't need to quote anyone, a link for this or that, at some point people must use common sense.
The whole damn world is drastically changing before your eyes, do you need a link for that?

Of course, there are going to be so many cultural clashes, that eventually they won't be news worthy.
I fully expect the issue of Muslim rights to become eventual daily chat.
We can expect that the states will be sued to provide alternative Muslim schools for children, etc.
It's going to be par for the course, so please don't be surprised.
Oh it's going to happen.

One thing that needs to be stated that we WILL become used to occasional terrorist activity, we have to.
I believe 95% of those fleeing their countries, are probably peaceful.
To say that you know for a fact that none of them are terrorists or prone to becoming radicalized makes you a liar, because no one knows how this is going to end up, because we have never had millions of middle eastern Muslims fleeing their countries before.

We do know that every now and then there WILL be terrorist activities by those that are {terrorists, radicalized, disenfranchised, disillusioned, or mentally ill}.

They are here, millions more are coming, the West will be FOREVER changed, almost none of them want to go back from the countries they are fleeing, and we must get used to a new reality.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying that it is a new reality, and the only thing you can be sure of is,
the West will be changed forever.

To say the West will not be changed, makes you disengenious at best.
The change is just starting, and it's a done deal.


< Message edited by Marini -- 8/12/2016 7:17:22 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 8:24:57 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: Marini



I want to discuss the idea of acceptance, that the West will be completely and forever changed by what is occurring.


To say the West will not be changed, makes you disengenious at best.
The change is just starting, and it's a done deal.

There was talk of a pretty big change when christianity split.
There was talk of a pretty big change when the printing press was developed.
There was talk that the old and the new were incomptible.
It has been a long time since the britts exiled a jew or hunted down a catholic.
My point is that history shows us that what was always changes.
There was a time when it was thought that government by popular election was against god's will and totally incompatible with monarchy. Saudi arabia might be considered by some to be one of the more autocratic monarchies in the world and yet our guy kisses their guy on the lips and we sell them state of the art war toys.
There was a time in my country when it was against the law for folks of different ethnicities/color to mary. When it was made legal the cry was that the end of civilization as we know it was at hand...well it has been fifty some years and civilization is still cranking along.
Why would a muslim have any more sway with the govt than baptist when it comes to baking a cake?
If they want to have private schools that is no different than the catholic schools I attended. They are required to teach to the state standards.
As for change I, from what I have read of history, believe the west will change them far more than they will change the west.
For example: how many muslim women in the west do not have a drivers license?
They may be asking the same question about their culture being forever changed also

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 8:35:33 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		Tous ca change, Marini and I think if only ONE muslim or ONE chinaman or one whatever, settles in a country and makes it his home, the area he chooses to live in changes slightly because of his presence and the ripples spread; maybe only minutely in some cases but everybody is eventually affected in some way. As Donne said, "No man is an island entire unto himself " etc. Whether the changes are good or bad is up to us; ALL of us.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 8:48:25 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Tous ca change, Marini and I think if only ONE muslim or ONE chinaman or one whatever, settles in a country and makes it his home, the area he chooses to live in changes slightly because of his presence and the ripples spread; maybe only minutely in some cases but everybody is eventually affected in some way. As Donne said, "No man is an island entire unto himself " etc. Whether the changes are good or bad is up to us; ALL of us.


We can agree to disagree here.
It's not a "small" situation, and it is a big deal.
Western civilization has never dealt with the enormity and severity of what is happening here.
In fact, it's just starting.







< Message edited by Marini -- 8/12/2016 9:08:33 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 9:36:56 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

"For us, this is not a problem you can turn a blind eye to--one to be solved by small concessions. For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the [Muslim] spirit can ever really be eradicated. Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight [religious] tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that [religious] tuberculosis. This [Muslim] contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the [Muslim], has been banished from our midst."

Source

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 9:42:23 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

"For us, this is not a problem you can turn a blind eye to--one to be solved by small concessions. For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the [Muslim] spirit can ever really be eradicated. Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight [religious] tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that [religious] tuberculosis. This [Muslim] contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the [Muslim], has been banished from our midst."

Source


Well, that's the extreme , which is common here.
I see extreme right and extreme left opinions on here.
I rarely agree with either side.
The truth is often in the middle.
I am finding both extreme left and extreme right thinking, almost intolerable these days.



< Message edited by Marini -- 8/12/2016 9:46:48 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 9:43:06 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

Fact is, they are fleeing, even the men of fighting age don't want to stay in the countries they are fleeing, and few if any of them
will ever want to return.

The fact that people are fleeing countries run by islamic laws and it has proven to be completely chaotic. The condition for their refugee status in being able to resettle in the new country is logically to give up Islam.

To me, it's very fair. They have given the religion a fair chance. It fucked up their country. So time to choose something else that can result in peaceful countries. If they don't want the same chaos to happen in their new country, they should give up what brought on that chaos.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 9:47:04 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		I think the muslims will integrate and eventually be accepted and accepting, as has happened with many other races that immigrated into different societies over the centuries. The transition period may be bloody and mini-wars may be fought, but it will happen as sure as life goes on and this ball of mud keeps turning.
We have just fought a major war and couple of minor ones to stop murderous intolerance of differing kinds and yet DC, you want to see another one ? A holocaust of muslims instead of jews ?

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 9:52:23 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Tous ca change, Marini and I think if only ONE muslim or ONE chinaman or one whatever, settles in a country and makes it his home, the area he chooses to live in changes slightly because of his presence and the ripples spread; maybe only minutely in some cases but everybody is eventually affected in some way. As Donne said, "No man is an island entire unto himself " etc. Whether the changes are good or bad is up to us; ALL of us.


We can agree to disagree here.
It's not a "small" situation, and it is a big deal.
Western civilization has never dealt with the enormity and severity of what is happening here.
In fact, it's just starting.







While you may consider it a given you didn't say a word about the need for the Musims to adjust to the West. They are moving into Western society. If they expect Western society to change to suit them with them making to changes they come as invaders even if they are not among the terrorists. Immigrents move to join a society, invaders come to change it into their society. We also have a faction of Hispanics that are doing the same thing we don't need to add a faction of Muslims. Since we can't accomodate both what do you suggest that we cordone them off and let them fight it out to see to whom we surrender?

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/12/2016 9:55:46 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 9:58:44 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		Our society will adjust to the new immigrants Bama. Just as they will adjust to fit in with our society. It has happened many times before over the centuries. I think after this initial uproar and upset, it will probably happen again. If it doesn't, through intransigence on either or both sides, then yes, a bloodbath will possibly ensue. I surely hope not because you will never know who is on which side. Both our countries have endured that in the past. Enough said about that. I DO think it would be a good idea for both sides to learn a fair bit more about the other though.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:01:12 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Tous ca change, Marini and I think if only ONE muslim or ONE chinaman or one whatever, settles in a country and makes it his home, the area he chooses to live in changes slightly because of his presence and the ripples spread; maybe only minutely in some cases but everybody is eventually affected in some way. As Donne said, "No man is an island entire unto himself " etc. Whether the changes are good or bad is up to us; ALL of us.


We can agree to disagree here.
It's not a "small" situation, and it is a big deal.
Western civilization has never dealt with the enormity and severity of what is happening here.
In fact, it's just starting.


While you may consider it a given you didn't say a word about the need for the Musims to adjust to the West. They are moving into Western society. If they expect Western society to change to suit them with them making to changes they come as invaders even if they are not among the terrorists. Immigrents move to join a society, invaders come to change it into their society. We also have a faction of Hispanics that are doing the same thing we don't need to add a faction of Muslims. Since we can't accomodate both what do you suggest that we cordone them off and let them fight it out to see to whom we surrender?


Thanks for putting cheese on the conversational cracker!
Many are not fleeing with the intent on changing much, except their location.
If I am drowning and you bring me in the boat, I need to be saved--not changed.
Humm


< Message edited by Marini -- 8/12/2016 10:02:53 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:01:43 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		This may look familiar:

We who have stood over
so many graves
know that no matter what they do
all of us must live
or none.

ALICE WALKER

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:04:43 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Our society will adjust to the new immigrants Bama. Just as they will adjust to fit in with our society. It has happened many times before over the centuries. I think after this initial uproar and upset, it will probably happen again. If it doesn't, through intransigence on either or both sides, then yes, a bloodbath will possibly ensue. I surely hope not because you will never know who is on which side. Both our countries have endured that in the past. Enough said about that. I DO think it would be a good idea for both sides to learn a fair bit more about the other though.

My point was that she only asks for the west to change. Everyone needs to adapt, but we don't need to turn into a Moslem society. Like every other group of immigrants they need to fit in to our society, while we have to respect their beliefs.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:06:41 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

This may look familiar:

We who have stood over
so many graves
know that no matter what they do
all of us must live
or none.

ALICE WALKER


The thing is, we all have a right to our feelings.
No one knows how this will end.
Again, to say this is not a big deal, is itself astonishing.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:07:17 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Tous ca change, Marini and I think if only ONE muslim or ONE chinaman or one whatever, settles in a country and makes it his home, the area he chooses to live in changes slightly because of his presence and the ripples spread; maybe only minutely in some cases but everybody is eventually affected in some way. As Donne said, "No man is an island entire unto himself " etc. Whether the changes are good or bad is up to us; ALL of us.


We can agree to disagree here.
It's not a "small" situation, and it is a big deal.
Western civilization has never dealt with the enormity and severity of what is happening here.
In fact, it's just starting.


While you may consider it a given you didn't say a word about the need for the Musims to adjust to the West. They are moving into Western society. If they expect Western society to change to suit them with them making to changes they come as invaders even if they are not among the terrorists. Immigrents move to join a society, invaders come to change it into their society. We also have a faction of Hispanics that are doing the same thing we don't need to add a faction of Muslims. Since we can't accomodate both what do you suggest that we cordone them off and let them fight it out to see to whom we surrender?


Thanks for putting cheese on the conversational cracker!
Many are not fleeing with the intent on changing much, except their location.
If I am drowning and you bring me in the boat, I need to be saved--not changed.
Humm


Notice I used the word faction?
And I see you still avoid anything about the "refugees" adjusting.
You may not need to be changed, but you don't get the keys to the car.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:08:38 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		I agree totally Bama. Both sides have to change and accept, or both sides will lose.
Whenever the muslims took a town or city in the days long gone, they were like the Romans, in the sense that they would tolerate any religion as long as you tolerated theirs. I think the so-called Christians were the ones that used the 'all or nothing' method of chistianizing places. you either became a Christian or you became very dead.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:08:44 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
My point was that she only asks for the west to change. Everyone needs to adapt, but we don't need to turn into a Moslem society. Like every other group of immigrants they need to fit in to our society, while we have to respect their beliefs.

I don't think she asked for the west to change. I think she's simply saying change is inevitable to accommodate new cultures as a matter of fact.

But that depends on what government is in charge. And the direction they set.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:09:09 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Our society will adjust to the new immigrants Bama. Just as they will adjust to fit in with our society. It has happened many times before over the centuries. I think after this initial uproar and upset, it will probably happen again. If it doesn't, through intransigence on either or both sides, then yes, a bloodbath will possibly ensue. I surely hope not because you will never know who is on which side. Both our countries have endured that in the past. Enough said about that. I DO think it would be a good idea for both sides to learn a fair bit more about the other though.

My point was that she only asks for the west to change. Everyone needs to adapt, but we don't need to turn into a Moslem society. Like every other group of immigrants they need to fit in to our society, while we have to respect their beliefs.


Hopefully, I am not the "she".
I said the WEST will change, we have no choice.
Thats the point of this thread.
It's already a done deal, many just don't realize it yet.


< Message edited by Marini -- 8/12/2016 10:12:01 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:12:03 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		I didn't say it was no big deal Marini.......Gods forbid. It is a HUGE deal but it is one that has to be tackled as calmly as homo sapiens can manage, without immediately reaching for a weapon or a big red button. This is something that is going to take many, many years, so maybe our grandchildren may have got it sorted by the time they are playing with THEIR grandchildren.

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed - 8/12/2016 10:14:45 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I didn't say it was no big deal Marini.......Gods forbid. It is a HUGE deal but it is one that has to be tackled as calmly as homo sapiens can manage, without immediately reaching for a weapon or a big red button. This is something that is going to take many, many years, so maybe our grandchildren may have got it sorted by the time they are playing with THEIR grandchildren.


This is going to continue indefinitely.
lol
It goes way beyond your grandchildren.



< Message edited by Marini -- 8/12/2016 10:20:59 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 20
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