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Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 5:36:50 AM

JessieMe

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I sent this to someone in an email and realized it might generate some interesting discussion so I am posting it here to get others thoughts on this..

"Its funny to me that I always thought "arranged" marriages seemed to work out better than "romantic" marriages. The people went into an arranged marriage understanding the terms better. It truly was until death do you part. The romantic ones seem to believe it is only for as long as the romance lasts. The other interesting aspect is that it seemed as if many arranged marriages ended up with a deep level of respect and sometimes love towards their partner as they grew to know each other better. I am not saying I am not hoping to care for and possibly even fall in love with my owner... but honestly, if what I am hoping for is to be able to train to be a slave..does it really HAVE to be a "love" relationship?"

(Please keep in mind that these are my thoughts.. I have not done research on it and am only speaking in terms of my opinion.)

_____________________________

This is who I am
And this is all I know.
That I must choose to live for all that I can give
The spark that makes the Power grow
<Immortality by Celine Dion>

Post #: 1

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 6:32:19 AM

cloudboy

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There's a new book coming out that was reviewed in the New Yorker. Here is a snippet from the review:

>“Mating in Captivity,” takes a hard line against one of the most time-honored, if not otherwise celebrated, institutions in human history: the sexless marriage. According to its jacket copy, the treatise “examines the conflict”—or the “existential dilemma,” as Perel regards it—“between domesticity and sexual desire and explains what it takes to get lust back”; it reads like a cross between the works of Jacques Lacan and “French Women Don’t Get Fat.”<

I find this somewhat annoying b/c the implied answer to spicing up long term monogamy --- is introducing lust back into it 7-10-20-25-30 years down the road. The assumption is domesticity and sexual desire must be tied together in marriage. Maybe the better answer is that domesticiy and sexual desire need not be conjoined (in one relationship) or separated (being single and dating.) Maybe they can exist independently: married with freedom.

On another note I was reading a book called RULES FOR AGING. One segment was called A LONG AND HAPPY LIFE LASTS FIVE MINUTES.

It read:

"One would think that this rule would go without stating, but many people actually believe that a long life of uninterrupted happiness is a real possibility. And they act on this belief! They change families, careers, the structure of their faces, countries, everything, for no more substantial reason than they recall five minutes of uninterrupted happiness in the past, and they now wish to re-create the moment in perpetuity. They even convince themselves that the five minute period they recall was really five years and glibbly substitute the exception (bliss) for the rule (confustion, doubt, misery, fear, confusion and confustion.) Happiness is wonderful, but if you have had more than five consecutive minutes of it, it means that you weren't thinking."

I think this principle is well applied to marriage.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/22/2006 6:37:58 AM >

(in reply to JessieMe)

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RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 6:35:07 AM

JessieMe

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Joined: 6/5/2006
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Perhaps I should clarify something about my previous posting.. while I used the word marriage.. I am not speaking specifically about being married.. only as a term to indicate long term permanent relationships.. Marriage is definitely NOT something I am seeking and make that clear with each potential partner that comes along.

_____________________________

This is who I am
And this is all I know.
That I must choose to live for all that I can give
The spark that makes the Power grow
<Immortality by Celine Dion>

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 3

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 6:42:27 AM

sharainks

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In India where arranged marriages have been the norm the thought is that parents pick a match for their marriageable offspring. They believe that in the US we pick a mate.

In terms of relationships I've always liked the "reason, season, or lifetime" http://www.steeldog.com/reasonseasonlifetime.htm

(in reply to JessieMe)

Post #: 4

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 6:54:36 AM

Celeste43

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From: NYS
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I have a friend who's parents arranged her marriage back in India. She disliked him from the beginning and it grew worse with the years. Once she was able to get a green card, she immediately divorced him.

Had they remained in India, she might have had to remain with him. But she would never have been happy. Nor can I assume that their children, raised in a bitterly unhappy home with an abusive father, would have become as successful, stable people that they are now.

So yes, they would have remained together but at what cost? Is forever worth it always?

(in reply to sharainks)

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RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 7:01:08 AM

EvilGeoff

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Joined: 8/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

On another note I was reading a book called RULES FOR AGING. One segment was called A LONG AND HAPPY LIFE LASTS FIVE MINUTES.

It read:

"... Happiness is wonderful, but if you have had more than five consecutive minutes of it, it means that you weren't thinking."

I think this principle is well applied to marriage.

All I can say that if someone truly believes this, that people have no more than 5 minutes of happiness in their lives, the poor bastard who wrote this has had an absolutely miserable existence. I won't even call it a life.

*shakes his head* The search is not for perpetual happiness. Perpetual happiness is a totally unrealistic expectation. The search is for something beyond never-ending misery, boredom, confusion, conflict, pain, loss. Happiness you should be able to feel often, but not constantly. Contentment is the long-term goal. Being at peace with one's self and with one's life choices.

Happiness occurs when it occurs. The swelling of joy that fills your heart when your partner does something extraordinary, just-for-you. Listening to an amazing piece of music that touches your soul. The laughter of children playing. Walking barefoot in the grass. I simply can't imagine not being able to find 5 minutes of happiness in a DAY. And this miserable sod is trying to tell my I'm only supposed to get 5 minutes in a LIFETIME??? Screw that pessimistic noise!

*grins impishly* If nothing else, I can get 5 minutes of happiness wanking off!

YIK,
- Geoff

< Message edited by EvilGeoff -- 7/22/2006 7:02:58 AM >

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 6

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 7:09:23 AM

Caretakr

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I think that if more people bothered to actually arrange thier relationships on long term mutual interests, goals and beliefs-they would last a lot longer. As it is,most rush into it with nothing more than hormonal infatuation to reply upon........which generally fades in about 6 months to a year.......

This is often mistaken for "love".

It's a prety half assed way to do things-no wonder the divorce rate is so high. What a bunch of idiots.

(in reply to EvilGeoff)

Post #: 7

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 7:10:09 AM

puella

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I think that it might be very important to point out that most arranged marriages are not a contract which began between the two people involved in the marriage. It is usually a brokerage which is instituted and implemented by the heads of their families. What is also usually true, is that what keeps them together are not some sort of more realistic and legitimate expectation and commitment sets, but rather a very strong cultural and familial obligation as well as, quite often a very strong fear of the cultural and societal consequences of breaking that contract, some of which are so brutal, that 'til death do us part' is putting it mildly.

(in reply to JessieMe)

Post #: 8

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 7:10:29 AM

Caretakr

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duplicate

< Message edited by Caretakr -- 7/22/2006 7:11:13 AM >

(in reply to Caretakr)

Post #: 9

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 7:27:45 AM

MHOO314

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ahhhh well said!

Perhaps if we look at it not as marriage but commitment in a "relationship"--that puts it in a different light---for you can have deep commitment with no marriage and marriage with no commitment---and we can all site arranaged and voluntary situations where one or both partners suffered for life in silence---however, jessie is asking about arranged versus love---and in the context, I am assuming of the Life. I see as we all do many, many instances where there is an agreement between D and s--with no (to us anyway) sign of love, but the commitment is very evident. We also see ones where love enters in and things get a little confused--for with love brings those vanilla societal expectations---(remember the question from Fangs that as a Dominant he wanted more say in his wedding?) and it can blur what was once very clear roles--

For Me, I am coming to think that arranged is what I seek first, with the deep respect between the T/two that would grow into some kind of love--but the arrangement needs to be there first---( and yes if there is a marriage, as the Dominant, I will do the asking--actually the telling--where and when <smiles>)

As Geoff said---people mistake love for peace and contentment---LONG TERM--they also mistake love for the hormone rush in the beginning--when that fades, they can't cope--my gosh we are all getting older one can't keep the sex rush going forever, nor can a good slave be kneeling when they are old--however, to Me, to reach for a hand, pat it gently or have a hand held out with that gentle squeeze--is what a lifetime is all about--the reassurance of knowing--and that to Me can come arranged or with love--for after all, devotion and care of another human being---isn't that love in the purest form?

and thank you jessie for a very thought provoking post.

< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 7/22/2006 7:28:46 AM >

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RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 2:27:40 PM

cloudboy

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The author is of course being facetious about happiness lasting five minutes. His real point is that happiness is fleeting, mischievous, and elusive. To make life changes based on happy moments in the past, in his opinion, is a mistake. I think this is a valid point.

People in marriages often make themselves miserable remember "more passion," "more love," or happier times --- and for them when the present doesn't measure up ---- problems ensue. His real message is, work with what you have, its not that bad. Tweak it, don't blow it up.

(in reply to EvilGeoff)

Post #: 11

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 2:41:06 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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All long-term relationships should be somewhat arranged- the question is, who is doing the arrangement?

Basing long term serious life relationships on nothing more than current emotions is pretty much a recipe in itself for disaster.

Arrangements and long term thinking is necessary- this is why we date, this is why we court, this is why we take steps before making a final commitment. It's not fearing commitment, it's being sensible and making your own arrangements for your own life.

As for external arrangements, if we are talking skilled people who have the resources to really sort through all the issues and take the time to get to know the people involved, I can see a lot of merit in that. But most people prefer to arrange their own primary long term relationships.

And there is certainly merit in the idea of getting external perspectives and not simply living for a romantic ideal.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to JessieMe)

Post #: 12

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 3:09:19 PM

zumala

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Joined: 6/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

I think that if more people bothered to actually arrange thier relationships on long term mutual interests, goals and beliefs-they would last a lot longer. As it is,most rush into it with nothing more than hormonal infatuation to reply upon........which generally fades in about 6 months to a year.......

This is often mistaken for "love".

It's a prety half assed way to do things-no wonder the divorce rate is so high. What a bunch of idiots.

I think you have the major point of success right there, Caretakr. A plethora of shared interests, goals, and beliefs are exactly why Pup and I got married. The number of activities we share and enjoy together is actually greater now than it was when we got married 4 years ago. I expect that trend will likely continue, and I'm thrilled with that. In addition to that, there is love and friendship. That is how we share our thoughts and feelings with each other. No relationship, marriage or otherwise, is ever perfect; but ours is a darn good one.

More on topic with the thread... I don't know that arranged or love matches are any better or worse. They are just different. You can have fabulous successes or tragic failures with either method.

zuma

(in reply to Caretakr)

Post #: 13

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 3:21:36 PM

enthralled

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/13/2005
From: Nashville, Tn
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessieMe

I sent this to someone in an email and realized it might generate some interesting discussion so I am posting it here to get others thoughts on this..

"Its funny to me that I always thought "arranged" marriages seemed to work out better than "romantic" marriages. The people went into an arranged marriage understanding the terms better. It truly was until death do you part. The romantic ones seem to believe it is only for as long as the romance lasts. The other interesting aspect is that it seemed as if many arranged marriages ended up with a deep level of respect and sometimes love towards their partner as they grew to know each other better. I am not saying I am not hoping to care for and possibly even fall in love with my owner... but honestly, if what I am hoping for is to be able to train to be a slave..does it really HAVE to be a "love" relationship?"

(Please keep in mind that these are my thoughts.. I have not done research on it and am only speaking in terms of my opinion.)

I love this thread ......

IMO ...I absolutely think it could work!
If your focus IS the M/s relationship itself, if that's really what you're looking for, then yes!
Without the hormonal emotional craziness that leads to jealousy, insecurity, doubt, etc, etc ..... the focus is really put on service. Not saying that you should be a mail-order slave (you should definately get to know someone), but I dont think that you HAVE to be in love to be in service..... just my opinion.

~enthralled

_____________________________

A man never discloses his own character so clearly as when he describes another's.-Jean Paul Richter

(in reply to JessieMe)

Post #: 14

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 3:28:35 PM

Lashra

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No it doesn't have to be a romantic or love relationship because most arranged marriages are done for business reasons. When you go in knowing its for business and you know exactly what is expected of you, then you have no delusions of happily ever after.

I wouldn't say that an arranged marriage is *better* than a romantic one, I'd much rather be with some I love and can get along with rather then someone I don't even know and am forced to be with and stay with mainly out of fear. And the reason that alot of these arranged marriage partners stick together is because they are literally til DEATH do us part...usually meaning the woman's demise if she tries to leave.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to zumala)

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RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 3:38:01 PM

Lordandmaster

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I agree with most of the comments and would only add this: the fact that an arranged marriage CAN produce a gratifying lifeling relationship doesn't mean that an arranged marriage always or even usually DOES. I think we must have a better chance of finding a compatible life partner if we have the freedom to choose, but I agree that most people who throw themselves into a long-term relationship aren't thinking straight when they do it. Hey, I've been there and done it too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessieMe

Its funny to me that I always thought "arranged" marriages seemed to work out better than "romantic" marriages. The people went into an arranged marriage understanding the terms better. It truly was until death do you part. The romantic ones seem to believe it is only for as long as the romance lasts. The other interesting aspect is that it seemed as if many arranged marriages ended up with a deep level of respect and sometimes love towards their partner as they grew to know each other better.

(in reply to JessieMe)

Post #: 16

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 3:41:37 PM

Caretakr

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Joined: 6/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: enthralled

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessieMe

I sent this to someone in an email and realized it might generate some interesting discussion so I am posting it here to get others thoughts on this..

"Its funny to me that I always thought "arranged" marriages seemed to work out better than "romantic" marriages. The people went into an arranged marriage understanding the terms better. It truly was until death do you part. The romantic ones seem to believe it is only for as long as the romance lasts. The other interesting aspect is that it seemed as if many arranged marriages ended up with a deep level of respect and sometimes love towards their partner as they grew to know each other better. I am not saying I am not hoping to care for and possibly even fall in love with my owner... but honestly, if what I am hoping for is to be able to train to be a slave..does it really HAVE to be a "love" relationship?"

(Please keep in mind that these are my thoughts.. I have not done research on it and am only speaking in terms of my opinion.)

I love this thread ......

IMO ...I absolutely think it could work!
If your focus IS the M/s relationship itself, if that's really what you're looking for, then yes!
Without the hormonal emotional craziness that leads to jealousy, insecurity, doubt, etc, etc ..... the focus is really put on service. Not saying that you should be a mail-order slave (you should definately get to know someone), but I dont think that you HAVE to be in love to be in service..... just my opinion.

~enthralled

I think it's even better when you can arrange your own. Seriously, how do you serve a relationship, if you don't even know what that is?

(in reply to enthralled)

Post #: 17

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 3:52:31 PM

enthralled

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/13/2005
From: Nashville, Tn
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

I think it's even better when you can arrange your own. Seriously, how do you serve a relationship, if you don't even know what that is?

Hi Caretakr .....

Perhaps my thinking flew past my ability to type here .... to try and clarify:
Though the OP specifically posed the question of arranged marriages, I was more responding to the last sentence in the post ....

quote:

but honestly, if what I am hoping for is to be able to train to be a slave..does it really HAVE to be a "love" relationship?"

As I said, I do believe that one should get to know the person and know what is expected, but I don't believe that being 'in love' need be a determining factor to a successful relationship. Desire and willingness to make it work does though.
Hope that helped ......

~enthralled

_____________________________

A man never discloses his own character so clearly as when he describes another's.-Jean Paul Richter

(in reply to Caretakr)

Post #: 18

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 10:49:15 PM

SusanofO

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Jessie: I am not sure I'd be a fan of arranged marriage, simply because I believe people should have some say in who they spend a good part of their life with in a marital relationship,(even if people do screw up that choice, or trying to get things to work well, about half the time, it seems). I know in many cases, I know arranged marriage appears to work well. Personally, I think this has a lot to do with the people involved having been enculturated to work with eachother, and not thinking, perhaps, that marriage in general is going to be a bastion of complete all-the-time happiness.That is a generalization, of course, but it may be at least partly true.

cloudboy:
I agree with you on both points, but re: Happiness Lasting for Five Minutes: My sister is a divorce attorney, and she says she cannot count the number of people who come to her office saying things like: "Well, when we got married, he used to take me out to dinner 4 times a week, and make love to me every night. Now he wants me to cook all the time and we only have sex twice a week!" The women, in particular (in her client list, although I am sure this works for both sexes) are astounded when they come to her wanting a divorce for things akin to: "He bought himself a Jaguar and only got me a new Honda" . When she explains to them that - should they divorce, they will not only be getting just the Honda (if they are lucky) but also have their style of living pared down to about 70% of its current level, and then be able to do things like afford groceries, as opposed to deciding which fur to buy at a fur salon, or which vacation to take, they discover suddenly that their "gargantuan problems" can, in fact, perhaps be dealth with by seeking marriage counselling, or simply communicating more, and more evenly, with their spouse.

This is related to your comment because (I do have a point, he) she told me that these people seem to be seeking happiness in material terms, much of the time, and the stakes for them only seem to get bigger, not more satisfying with each incremental and hopeful purchase. Personally, I think they sound bored, and are perhaps thinking all-the-time happiness is a right and a possibility. I don't think it is, either.

But a lot of folks apparently do think so. Maybe they need to grow up a wee bit. Did that sound judgmental? Maybe it is. I was raised by parents who constantly said things to their children like: "You think that's "not fair"? Well, get used to it. Life isn't necessarily fair". I am starting to think I was lucky, that way.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/22/2006 11:42:45 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 19

RE: Arranged vs Love - 7/22/2006 11:01:43 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Many years ago in the Boston, Mass area where I grew up I actually knew some old guys where I worked who came from Italy and Sicily and had their marriages "arranged" for them.
They seemed happy with the choices made by their families as to their wives.No divorces there, plus they were all Catholic and in those days the Catholic Church didn't allow divorces.
Sure, they'd have arguments with their wives over various things but it never came to a split.
So, I guess there's something to be said for arranged marriages.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 20

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