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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 11:53:18 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		I'm sorry Lizzie i wasn't judging you, i was just a little concerned that about your statement about people not respecting limits. I hope everything works out well for you.

_____________________________

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

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(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 12:18:13 PM   
reticence


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

That again is worrying, if someone did not respect my limits i would be out of there.
 
With respect are you not just repeating patterns of past abuse closing off and taking part in things which make you uncomfortable. Consensual abuse is never the less abuse.


I am very careful who I am in relationship with so that I do not have to deal with abuse of any kind. I am also careful who I "play" with because I want my limits respected. I'm really not going out and doing stupid things with anyone. I am also working through not disconnecting when I am in difficult situations.

But I am also aware that I can't be the only one who knows that there is within me the possibility to end up in a bad situation where the only way to deal with it is to disconnect. By asking my question about the difference between obeying and submitting, and using my own experiences as an example, I was hoping to get exactly this kind of discussion going.

One aspect of being on forums like this is helping lurkers, who seldom if ever post, find answers to questions they don't even know they have. It's not safe to play with people that you can't trust implicitly especially if you have the kind of background that includes abuse of any kind. People who've been abused can easily fall into the same kind of abuse patterns that they were in before. I am working hard to not do that. I am also very careful with any Doms that I talk with to weed out any who might find it amusing to push limits that could cause me to disconnect.


Lizzy

You are very right to keep that awareness, ask questions..and listen to your gut.  It is a fine line we walk and learning to trust those that are trustworthy is difficult.  When you do find that someone and can truly let go *smile* it is an amazing thing.  There is a difference between letting go and disconnecting.. it can feel the same at first...that is when being with one who cares and has gained our trust comes in.  I have been able to trust and do things that I would have not felt possible. 
When I said sometimes we just have to do it, and the feelings will come, I meant it within that context, of a relationship with someone you trust and is trustworthy.  Never would I suggest you just do something if it was against your gut feeling.  We just have to remember that our gut feeling is usually in "hyper vigilence" mode.. and can hold us back out of fear.  Only experience and time and finding one we can truly trust will mediate that "hyper vigilence"

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 12:46:10 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I've read Dom/mes and Masters who want the obedience, but wouldn't the complete submission be better? Which is more important, the obedience or the submission

Neither.  Submission can be expressed through obedience/obedience can be an expression of submission. 

As well, just because a person isn't feeling their fuzzy submissive feelings one day, doesn't mean they aren't being "completely" submissive.  Just because it's the obedience that is the only thing getting them through that next hour of work doesn't make it any less worthwhile IMO. 

There are many orientations of submissive, some are pleasure, some are service, some are control, and some are obedience oriented.

And almost everyone is a mix of those types.

I am highly service and control oriented, and very low obedience oriented.

What matters is knowing how you work and finding someone who works great for you or who you will grow to work well with (the harder road).

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 1:08:37 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		It's going to depend on a person's definition and connotations. To me, obedience comes from the spirit/heart while submission comes from the head/intellect, so, to me, obedience is deeper. Only my opinion; it sounds like you might feel the words have opposite importance to you.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 1:14:13 PM   
nogardthe4


Posts: 21
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline 		What is wrong with going for both?
                 The Dragon
PS: With all my time in the lifestyle....
Isn't it about time that dang ice cream cone had some chocolate syrup on it? Or at the very least sprinkles? 

< Message edited by nogardthe4 -- 7/22/2006 1:18:27 PM >

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 1:19:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nogardthe4

What is wrong with going for both?
                The Dragon
PS: With all my time in the lifestyle....
Isn't it about time that dang ice cream cone had some chocolate syrup on it? Or at the very least sprinkles? 


Post some more and eventually it will disappear...smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to nogardthe4)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 1:33:20 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Submission will inspire Obedience, but Obedience doesn't inspires Submission.  So, The important question is what will inspire Submission?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 2:37:34 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Submission will inspire Obedience, but Obedience doesn't inspires Submission.  So, The important question is what will inspire Submission?


I have a feeling it will be someone who digs into who I am and finds the crystal container that contains my total submission. Once he breaks it open, there will be more submission as well as obedience.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 6:23:37 PM   
reticence


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline 		Lizzie, honey

Please be aware that in order for him to break it open, you have to hold it out there for him to see... make yourself vulnerable, it aint easy.. possibly the scariest thing I have ever done.  But so worth it :) 

My absolute best to you... and if you ever need a shoulder, or a sounding board, I am here

reti

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 6:30:08 PM   
jonathan


Posts: 196
Joined: 8/5/2004
Status: offline 		i hope you're working on the dissociative behavior, as you note it's not a healthy thing. Certainly not the way to approach D/s. Trying to define a difference between submit and obey is a gray area for me. i submit to Her will because i want One i can trust to have complete control over me. i obey Her because it pleases both of us. Just as the trust goes both ways, She has to be able to trust that my need to belong to Her is genuine.

_____________________________

jonathan
http://www.slaveregister.com/000-515-587

"But in purple, i am stunning!"
"Before You slip into unconsciousness, i'd like to have another kiss, another flashing chance at bliss, another kiss, another kiss"

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 6:31:42 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks, reticence. I appreciate the offer. I have a number of mentors who are helping me learn to be me without disconnecting. I'm sure some Dom will be wise enough to see the gem I am and open my crystal decanter. In the meantime, I'm keeping it safe so it isn't unwisely smashed.

(in reply to reticence)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 6:49:12 PM   
peta


Posts: 29
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline 		My obedience to a Dom would come from my submission but not BE my submission.  When I submit I do so through a TPE.  There are times I will obey even though I do not want to obey, that is because I have given Him the control and have accepted the responsibility of doing so..hence..I submit to His will. 

I do not obey every rule the BDSM, D/s, M/s world tell me I should obey, and wow am I glad I do not, but if I submit to a Man, I am accepting that I will obey Him in every area that we have agreed upon.

peta

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Not trying for the popularity vote

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: obey vs submit - 7/23/2006 2:57:15 AM   
swtnsparkling


Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Personally, I see submission equals obedience.  When I submit, I agree to obey.

Exactley how I see it as well

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Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: obey vs submit - 7/23/2006 10:04:13 AM   
LaMspeach


Posts: 794
Joined: 12/4/2004
From: Philadelphia area, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Personally, I see submission equals obedience.  When I submit, I agree to obey.



That is exactly how i feel.

I would like to add ... when i have to step out of my comfort zone to obey an order Master has given me and i complete it well ..... that  when i  feel my submission the strongest.

_____________________________

peach ~ LordandMasters devoted alpha slave
"Only when the year has grown cold does one know that the pine and cypress are the last to wither"



(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: obey vs submit - 7/23/2006 11:48:43 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Submission will inspire Obedience, but Obedience doesn't inspires Submission.  So, The important question is what will inspire Submission?


I have been thinking on this for a little bit.. and add this thought

Submission will inspire Obedience, but Obedience will Demonstrate Submission.

I don't believe that the key to finding submission is through being obedient.  I believe obedience is active demonstration of the submission that exists.  Submission to me will be inspired by the Dominance of a person that has the right key (Character, Values, Principles etc,)  With Inspired Submission obedience will follow.  I would add however, that active demonstration will increase the momentum and power of ones submission.  The key is getting the momentum started in the first place.

In addition, Dominance will be inspired by Submission.  in much the same ways, it is a reciprocal relationship.  This is not to equate that the drive of Dominance or Submission doesn't exist within our personality and behaviors in general.  I am talking in the context of the dynamics of a intimate relationship between two individuals and that one needs the other to be demonstrated.

Dominance and Submission is that internal drive within one self that provides the intial momemtum to our Ds relationships

Command and Obedience is the active demonstation of that drive within our selves being transfer into a relationship dynamic.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: obey vs submit - 7/23/2006 12:14:20 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I don't believe that the key to finding submission is through being obedient.  I believe obedience is active demonstration of the submission that exists. 

However there is merit to the "fake it till you make it" mindset.

There have been times where I wasn't feeling submissive or feeling in a good place at all- and it is only through gritting my teeth and holding tight to simply obeying that I got through it.

In fact many times, simply going through the motions of obedience was enough to knock my perspective back into where I wanted it to be.

Simple obedience CAN inspire submission, just as submission CAN inspire obedience.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: obey vs submit - 7/23/2006 2:15:42 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

There have been times where I wasn't feeling submissive or feeling in a good place at all- and it is only through gritting my teeth and holding tight to simply obeying that I got through it.

In fact many times, simply going through the motions of obedience was enough to knock my perspective back into where I wanted it to be.

Simple obedience CAN inspire submission, just as submission CAN inspire obedience.


I disagree.  What you describe to me is not obedience inspiring submission.,

In fact... you are motivated to get back to where you want to be... and Being Obedient is the tool to get you there.

Obedience is an action/inaction ..... while submission is the drive/motivation.  You still had the drive/motivation to get some where.

However,  I do agree that taking action and gritting our teeth and forging ahead can get us reconnected to that drive.  But we have to be driven/motivated to want to be there in the first place.  Unfortunately, if one allows themself to be disconnected for to long... it can be a very difficult and stressful time to get reconnect to that inner self that brings us a sense of joy and happiness.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: obey vs submit - 7/23/2006 2:47:24 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

However,  I do agree that taking action and gritting our teeth and forging ahead can get us reconnected to that drive.  But we have to be driven/motivated to want to be there in the first place.  Unfortunately, if one allows themself to be disconnected for to long... it can be a very difficult and stressful time to get reconnect to that inner self that brings us a sense of joy and happiness.


Exactly. I don't want to disconnect, but I know I can if I'm not careful. I work very hard at staying as connected as possible. But I also figure it will be easier once I have a Dom/Master. When someone knows me well, they'll be more aware of when I am disconnecting and be in a hurry, I would imagine, to get me re-connected.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: obey vs submit - 7/23/2006 3:58:25 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Aren't we entitled to both?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

Which is more important, the obedience or the submission?

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: obey vs submit - 7/23/2006 4:34:03 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		Of course. Just trying to figure out how to make sure I give both when my natural inclination, at times, is to give one without the other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Aren't we entitled to both?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 40
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