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RE: obey vs submit - 7/23/2006 9:12:13 PM   
Khiaya


Posts: 3
Joined: 3/31/2004
Status: offline 		I completely understand sublizzie, I have similar background although i responded in the opposite manner. I am disconnected normally and only reconnect through BDSM. I think the main difference is that obeying doesn't require an emotional element, you just do what you're told. Submitting requires you to be emotionally commited to what is happening, a desire to please. A good Dom/me can make you beg for a way to submit.

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: obey vs submit - 7/24/2006 4:24:11 AM   
irishbynature


Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		When I submit (100 percent), it has to be out of genuine caring emotions for the other person because I feel submitting is an act of giving and expressing my feelings.  The more I care, the more I give/submit. The word "Obey" reminds me of something you are supposed to do and have no choice. (Like "Obey" traffic laws.)




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What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller


(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: obey vs submit - 7/24/2006 4:49:22 AM   
MrrPete


Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

For me, in a Dom/sub or Master/slave relationship, Being obedient is being submissive. You obey BECAUSE you have submitted. You obey to please your Master even if he tells you to do something you don't like.


I can obey, but not really be there. I'm good at obeying. But for me to truly submit, I have to stay connected while I obey. I know that, within myself, there's a big difference, though someone else may not see the difference.

I'm curious. Would you prefer obedience where I, or whomever, is disconnected or submission where I, or whomever, is completely there?


How would I know the difference? An obedient woman is what I desire and she will be rewarded for her obedience no matter what she does [internally] to achieve it.


_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: obey vs submit - 7/24/2006 5:03:39 AM   
MrrPete


Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		The ice cream cone disappears at 25 posts. Then you get a tryskelion.
the symbols are related to the number of posts you've made.


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Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to nogardthe4)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: obey vs submit - 7/24/2006 5:23:31 AM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		In my case and only my case i do not speak for anyone else submission and obedience go hand in hand.  I obey him because he is my Master and i want to make him happy and to me submitting to him means that i have to obey his orders (not that he give me all that many) i know what he expects so he does not have to give me orders unless it is about something specific that i was not aware of.   So to restate submission and obedience got together in my case.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to MrrPete)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: obey vs submit - 7/24/2006 1:16:38 PM   
SenseofBelonging


Posts: 69
Joined: 10/20/2005
Status: offline 		in obeying my Mistress, though i may not enjoy the activity She has ordered, and would not participate in it had i not been ordered,  i do enjoy pleasing Her, and therefore obedience becomes willing submission.

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: obey vs submit - 7/24/2006 2:53:47 PM   
onmykneesforhim


Posts: 112
Joined: 6/18/2006
Status: offline 		"Entitled" is a whole n'other thread.
One would figure you would be a very sure individual, or very cocky to be entitled to anything. Using n 1: as a reference point.

obedience
n 1: the act of obeying; dutiful or submissive behavior with respect to another person [syn: obeisance] [ant: disobedience] 2: the trait of being willing to obey [ant: disobedience] 3: behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes" [syn: respect]

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: obey vs submit - 7/24/2006 10:16:33 PM   
Zenar


Posts: 39
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie
I have been thinking about the difference between obey and submit. I can physically obey a command but not be submitting because I am very adept at dis-associating myself from my activities. (Comes from years of sexual molestation as a child and abuse in my marriage. I do not recommend it.)


There is the red flag, a submisive with an abuse issue in their history. Actually this is a rather comon thing, not saying that abuse causes submission but perhaps submisive naure some times opens a door to abuse? The thing is that you have to always keep in mind that you are currently working through an emotional issue, a process of healing from deep emotional scars. Some would say that BDSM is abolutely the worst thing that you can do right now, where as others like myself can see how this would be benificial in healing, just that you have to be extra carefull. Lord knows anyone that really knows me also knows I have my own past that I have had to work through.

Currently this ability to disassosiate is a result of painfull experiences in your past. I can only hope that you find kind understanding guiding hands in your future. However with any luck things get better and you do heal. While most, including myself see this dis-association as not being submisive at all, you never know as there might be some dominant out there that would think that such a thing is sexy as enything else. You might outgrow that, it might remain with you. The question is would it ever be healthy? Then again it was not so long ago that if you were caught in any BDSM activity at all you risked a lifetime in a sanitorium, and yet today we see psycology papers on the benifits that come from our lifestyle.

Just be carefull in picking who you allow to guide you, and when you do trust them make it a point that they understand you are going through a period of healing. I can only say their are many of us that are understanding of these kinds of issues and I wish you the best of luck as you walk down your path.

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: obey vs submit - 7/24/2006 10:32:55 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

I've read Dom/mes and Masters who want the obedience, but wouldn't the complete submission be better? Which is more important, the obedience or the submission?


For me, submission is internal. It's part of my nature. Obedience is directly related to activity, whether it's anticipated or through a command and it's a manifestation of my internal wiring which is only brought out by active or passive dominance. It's not really a matter of which is more important as they are two different things for me and both of them are a requirement for our relationship to thrive.

Obedience to Himself may be something that has become routine, for example, the way he wants his socks folded, but in folding those socks as he desires, I am obeying him. Wanting to fold his socks as he desires because it pleases him is internal to my nature and that nature is submissive.

Don't know if that made any sense.. I can't remember the last time I got a good dose of REM sleep.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: obey vs submit - 7/24/2006 11:04:00 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~

I think obedience and submission are linked, but not always the same.  To obey a command is one thing.  To be proactive in my submission and seek ways of pleasing him - whether I am sick, tired, stressed, whatever - and to offer them to him, or to go out of my way to provide something he would like without being asked, is part of my submission but not actual obedience to any given command.

Then again, one might bend one's will to obey an unpleasant command, which is also submitting.  So, at times they go hand in hand. Maybe it's safe to say that obedience is also submitting, but submitting is not necessarily obedience....

(I think I need a nap)

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: obey vs submit - 7/25/2006 2:07:05 AM   
babysburnin


Posts: 421
Joined: 2/16/2006
Status: offline 		Sublizzie - I think obeying and submitting are two entirely different things.  Obeying has the connotation for me as if one would fall in line to a parent's request.  Submitting is done willfully... and one can obey by submitting.  That's a circular thought - make sense?

_____________________________

-Babysburnin

"Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself."
- Jean Anouilh

"The highest proof of virtue is to possess boundless power without abusing it."
- Lord Macaulay

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: obey vs submit - 7/25/2006 8:36:38 AM   
slavetoobeyYou


Posts: 12
Joined: 8/28/2005
Status: offline 		Sometimes when commanded somewhat forcefully something happens to my mental state, i automatically obey, seeing my obedience and their control, i am also turned on, and also would say i have entered a state of submission. 
 
Sometimes when commanded perhaps not so forcefully at all, such as a new Domme i'd seen a couple of times quietly informing me i'm not to masturbate without asking Her permission, i know i have to obey, and what just happened is i've entered a 24/7 state of submission to Her until such time as in my mind i decide i will not be bound by that, or if i discovered She wasn't holding Her end of the tether.  Mentally aware of the power this gives Her (by virtue of my obedience), i feel my state of submission.

Only in a context of submission (which perhaps could be considered an agreement to obey)Dominance (and my prior training) causes my obedience, which then further creates in me submission. 
 
There is kind of a loop here, some form of submission, giving obedience, giving recognized or felt submission.
 
Perhaps it could be said the road to a strong bond (or from sub or candidate to slave) is the Dominant taking the sub though the loop lots of times in such a way as to keep deepening submission and obedience.
 
There's a lot more to say here, this is only part of the story, i haven't included exceptions to what i said, and i don't mean this disagrees with or is different than what others have said, just another way of talking about it.
 
slavetoobeyYou

(in reply to babysburnin)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: obey vs submit - 7/25/2006 10:39:44 AM   
afeathr


Posts: 248
Joined: 6/1/2006
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

I've read Dom/mes and Masters who want the obedience, but wouldn't the complete submission be better? Which is more important, the obedience or the submission?


I really had to break this down and consider it from it's lowest level... that means *whip out the dictionary*!!  LOL

to submit: 1 a : to yield oneself to the authority or will of another : SURRENDER b : to permit oneself to be subjected to something <had to submit to surgery>
2 : to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another

to obey: 1 : to follow the commands or guidance of
2 : to conform to or comply with <obey an order> <falling objects obey the laws of physics>

These two definitions are mutually exclusive of one another, and yet are intrinsically tied together in the context of human submission.  If we are to obey the commands of our Dom/Master then we must submit to His authority.  It matters not whether we 'enjoy' the act that is commanded of us, in fact the mere concept of *not* enjoying it, yet doing it anyway, is more submissive than the concept of obeying the order for those things that we *enjoy* doing.  Obedience is merely the act... the submission is the underlying context by which a sub/slave lives.

Now, I think were the confusion comes into play is when we start to consider pleasing our Doms/Masters and fulfilling their desires and how that affects us.  Is it an act of submission to do such, or are we merely obeying what we know would be His commands...?

I have done both with Sir... I obey his commands on a day to day basis (which, quite honestly are not very many), and I have submitted to his authority over me (to what extent I am able to do so - work, etc is not included in that submission for obvious reasons).  In everything that I do, I take Sir into consideration in that act.  If I am cleaning the house, I do so not only because I am anal (and love to clean) but also, and most importantly, because I know that it makes His life that much easier and He really enjoys and takes GREAT pleasure in coming home to a clean house.  When I care for His dogs... I treat them as my own, knowing that that pleases Sir.  He desires that his dogs be well cared for, and that the dogs and I have a good relationship.

Now, many of these things are pleasurable to me as well... does that mean that I am merely obeying? or submitting? or what *does* it mean...?  I've been told that I have a submissive heart... mostly because I *really* care about Sir... more than just the average person... in fact, I love him so it's even more important to me that He be happy and content.

I think that each person has to really decide in their own mind and heart what they are doing for their Dom/Master... are you submitting or merely obeying... or, like me, do you feel a deeper connection that neither of these words can really touch...?

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: obey vs submit - 7/25/2006 11:14:17 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afeathr

to submit: 1 a : to yield oneself to the authority or will of another : SURRENDER b : to permit oneself to be subjected to something <had to submit to surgery>
2 : to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another

to obey: 1 : to follow the commands or guidance of
2 : to conform to or comply with <obey an order> <falling objects obey the laws of physics>

It matters not whether we 'enjoy' the act that is commanded of us, in fact the mere concept of *not* enjoying it, yet doing it anyway, is more submissive than the concept of obeying the order for those things that we *enjoy* doing.  Obedience is merely the act... the submission is the underlying context by which a sub/slave lives.


this is BS... the emotional context of enjoying it or not enjoying is not reflected in the definitions of submit or obey!  All this is in the definition is a result.  submit is to defer to authority... like it or not.... obey is to follow the comman of this authority... like it or not.  Reading emotional context as being in these definition is simply wrong!  There is likely going to be emotional contexts with regards to submitting and obedience... however, the definition themselves Do Not indicate liking it as being more submissive than the other.  It' is our own personal preferences when someone submits and obeys that will generate a pleasure or gratification response.  Some will gain more pleasure when it is percieved they don't like it and do it anyways... some the like it or not is of no consequence and all that matter is the result of actually doing it.  Don't be fooled by others personal preference being project on yourself with regards to feeling more or less submissive because you enjoy submitting/obeying to specific authority/command or not.  Enjoying or not enjoying is not a measure of a better submissive or not... simply defering to the authority and obeying to the command will demonstrated submission nothing more, nothing less.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to afeathr)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: obey vs submit - 7/25/2006 12:19:17 PM   
afeathr


Posts: 248
Joined: 6/1/2006
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Often times, when responses are cut and pasted out of context then they appear to imply something different than what was actually said.  I apologize, in advance, if my doing so in this post causes confusion.

quote:

Original KnightofMists: obey is to follow the command of this authority

There is no mention of authority in the definition of obey.  You can obey a stop sign and it has no particular authority over you.  Must we now define authority to get a handle on its meaning as well??

quote:

Original KnightofMists:  however, the definition themselves Do Not indicate liking it as being more submissive than the other. 

I don't recall ever saying that it did.  I wasn't implying that the definition defined such a thing.  My statement was a personal one, and perhaps I should have said, "IMHO" but in most responses that is often implied... apparently, I was mistaken, and for that I apologize. However, my manners aside, the OP *did* ask "but wouldn't the complete submission be better?" Thereby asking the opinion of any one choosing to respond what they thought was better... maybe my answer didn't exactly fit the question, but my opinion was elicited by the fact that I read the post to begin with...

quote:

Original KnightofMists:  Enjoying or not enjoying is not a measure of a better submissive or not... simply defering to the authority and obeying to the command will demonstrated submission nothing more, nothing less.

Hence my reason for deferring to the definitions.  Deferring to the authority *is* submitting, by the definition, yet you imply here that you must also obey in order for the submission to be demonstrated... however, that is not in the definition of either word...  Therefore, is it not up to each person in the D/s or M/s relationship to define, for themselves what *is* or *is not* submission?   I think that obedience is, in itself, easy enough for everyone to define and recognize... it's the submission that seems to be difficult to discern.

That being said... the OP asks encourages me to ask a deeper question... "If obeying demonstrates submission then how does the Dom/Master know if the sub/slave is truly submitting or merely allowing her/himself to be ordered about? And...does it really matter??"

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: obey vs submit - 7/25/2006 5:16:39 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afeathr

quote:

Original KnightofMists: obey is to follow the command of this authority

There is no mention of authority in the definition of obey.  You can obey a stop sign and it has no particular authority over you.  Must we now define authority to get a handle on its meaning as well??


mmmmmmm do you thing that stop sign was put there because some one did it on a whim.  Besides, where did you gain the understanding of what a stop sign means anyway?  I think if you follow the path you will see that an authority at one point established the meaning of stop signs.  Not only that, this same authority established consequences for failing to obey the meaning of the stop sign. So yes you are Obeying an authority when you stop at a stop sign.  Even if the authority is the one that going to give you a hell of a big ticket if you run the stop sign.  There is some that has authority over you each and every time that you abide by a stop sign.
quote:


quote:

Original KnightofMists:  Enjoying or not enjoying is not a measure of a better submissive or not... simply defering to the authority and obeying to the command will demonstrated submission nothing more, nothing less.

Hence my reason for deferring to the definitions.  Deferring to the authority *is* submitting, by the definition, yet you imply here that you must also obey in order for the submission to be demonstrated... however, that is not in the definition of either word...  Therefore, is it not up to each person in the D/s or M/s relationship to define, for themselves what *is* or *is not* submission?   I think that obedience is, in itself, easy enough for everyone to define and recognize... it's the submission that seems to be difficult to discern.

That being said... the OP asks encourages me to ask a deeper question... "If obeying demonstrates submission then how does the Dom/Master know if the sub/slave is truly submitting or merely allowing her/himself to be ordered about? And...does it really matter??"


If you want to narrow your thoughts on just your own couple definitions that apply, then maybe your arguement would have more value.  The fact is there is alot more than just these two defined words as well as alot of other intellectual logic and thoughts that apply. 

What could be so hard to understand that to Submit is to Yield to the Authority of another.  Authority gives Commands/Orders etc.  When a person obeys commands of another.  You are in effect obeying an authority.  When you obey another you are yielding to said authority.  It is not a question of what is or isn't submission.... But what one will or will not submit to and too many wish to play one upmanship with this.... I submit to this... you don't bullshit.  People seem to forget that what occur outside of their relationship is of little concern with regards to the Ds structure.  What is of importance is their own balance in that power structure which brings happiness to those in the relationship and to oneself.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 7/25/2006 5:26:30 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to afeathr)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: obey vs submit - 7/25/2006 5:44:41 PM   
LordBennett


Posts: 24
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline 		A Dominant or a Master can and must obey things such as stop signs without being a submissive or slave.  But to submit is left totally to the submissive/slave and do they obey just to obey and not to submit?  Maybe, but how does the Dominant or Master know the differrence?  If they are good enough to obey and not submit they are going to be good enough to keep their reason for obeying hidden from everyone else.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: obey vs submit - 7/25/2006 6:35:44 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordBennett

A Dominant or a Master can and must obey things such as stop signs without being a submissive or slave.  But to submit is left totally to the submissive/slave and do they obey just to obey and not to submit?  Maybe, but how does the Dominant or Master know the differrence?  If they are good enough to obey and not submit they are going to be good enough to keep their reason for obeying hidden from everyone else.


BS...  everyone will Submit to an authority at one time or another... most will submit to the authority of another multiple times a day.  However, with one's personal intimate relationships the dynamics to Dominate or to Submit for Ds structured relationships is significantly different.  You submit to the will of your boss.  You might not like it... but you do it because your motivations is more a means to an end.  In other words, you want food on the table.  But, in personal relationship, there is no motivation to submit to the other.  It is the personal relationship that ones intrinsic nature is most likely to come out and able to be actualized.  In being able to actualize it within the context of the intimate relationship, the Dominant gains personal happiness and contentment that most likely will not be gained in other relationships.  The difference is in the motivation.  We submit to our bosses, our governments other situations because the consequences are unacceptable for us to do otherwise.  When the consequence holds little value to us, we will not submit and may even attempt to dominate the situation since that is our intrinsic nature.

What drives submissives is the Desire to Submit.  Anyone can submit... but only submissives Desire to do it as part of their instrinsic motivation and personal gratifications.  The Dominant will submit in many situations... but their is not desire to do it beyond the Extrinsic motivations and there is no instrinsic gratifications gained by submitting.

This is why I have said before and will say again...  Dominance and Submission for the Dominant and submissive is an Intrinsic Motivation that provides personal gratifications when we can actualize our internal drives.  I am never happier than when I am dominating my two girls in any situation and I dare say that they are never happier than when they are submitting to my will! 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LordBennett)
Profile   Post #: 58
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