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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

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ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Look, the problem is not the liberal/moderate Muslim who does NOT act on certain dogma or doctrine. The problem is the lack of condemnation of the Muslim radicalism. What the west needs to see is more Muslim public condemnation of the goals and tactics of the radicals and such as the fatwas.

We have seen far too little from the Muslim leaders and influential speakers to vocally, publicly and much more vociferously go after those who would actually act on their radicalism. Who condemned a national leader for actually assigning the fatwa (death sentence) on Rushdie ? Nobody. Who from a high position, publicly and with any distinction...condemned the radicals ? Far too few.

The west is dealing with the young and stupid who actually think paradise awaits their martyrdom. It is as much the Muslim leadership that is the problem with almost sanctioning these acts by omission, (silence) when they fail to condemn them.

So no, Islam is not a cancer, Islam is not the problem. As always, it is the leaders who fail to act and to say so, is in no way Islamophobia.



I know you read this section and contribute frequently so I find it rather implausable that you have not been disabused of your professed ignorance in this area. That being said there is no substance to your insipid rant because you have been informed on numerous occasions of the many and powerful arab leaders who have vociferously condemmed them. Currently there are tens of thousands of arabs in armed conflict with them.
Get a clue.

Could you link us to the meaningful Arab outrage over or at least specific condemnation of, the fatwa put on Rushdie and those who attacked Charlie Hebdo for just two. We see on the net and mainstream media, large crowds of demonstrators condemning almost every alleged offense again Islam and in even small various depictions of Mohammad. While most can find little in the higher ranks of Arabs, leaders or otherwise, speaking out against those. In fact, millions of Muslim people support such religious intolerance and partake in such uprisings.

Arab soldiers being sent to fight have about as much and in fact less influence over the Arab leaders govt. and religious, for their lack of outright condemnation of such attacks as our soldiers do over western policy that would send them to destroy and occupy Iraq. Show me just how the Arab world articulated and promulgated such condemnation of their mass intolerance.

MrRodgers: If you are actually sincerely interested in learning the opinions of the Muslim community you will look beyond the media and basic internet search. One will find anything to validate their beliefs on the internet.

The mainstream Muslims do not believe Rushdie should have been given a death sentence, nor do we believe the attacks on Charlie habdo were justified. Indeed freedom of speech has limits. We not shout fire in a crowded theater. But regardless of what one feels, violence is never a justified reaction.

If you truly wish to hear what the Muslims actually believe, perhaps you should get to know some actual Muslims. I promise we're harmless and have other life concerns just like everyone else. At the very least, at least listen to some mainstream popular Muslim scholars on these matters.

This is a five minutes video with regards to the Charlie Hadbo thing. He is the most well known and followed Muslim scholar in North America and the West in general. I would argue almost 90% of Muslims, especially young Muslims in America, follow him. You do not have to agree with all the he says, but at least you will get some real perspective as opposed to third party knowledge you gain from the media. When you get a chance, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym3Znb0wb7s

For both you and Thompson. In so far as what we see in most of those links I stand only partially corrected but I need more than what we see there. I still see too many reporters...reporting such condemnation. I want to see the Arab leaders themselves 'take it to the streets' as it were with personal condemnation. I want to see more than Arab/American here give a few speeches in the US. I believe that until we do...this violence goes on forever.

You do see that from what I got from watching several links, these were Arab/Americans and almost exclusively Arab and Muslim American community clerics and not the highest ranking Arab leaders from the ME, so still conspicuous by their absence is an Arab leader himself actually coming out against such atrocities themselves rather than safely behind some spokesmen or some collective communique.

Plus I can't testify as to whether or not or what Mohammad was actually to have believed but we know by his actions I have it that he killed many 1000's in his conquests declaring them to be the infidel.

Arab diplomats told Thomas Jefferson in France when asked about boarding our ships stealing the freight and killing or enslaving our sailors while attempting to sail past N. Africa in the late 1700's and early 1800's, or sinfully demand and accept ransom, was told that Allah told them they had the right according to the Qoran as all others were again...the infidel.

Here we are over 200 years later and far, far too many Arab Muslims don't just hold that belief but are still acting on that belief and without nearly enough condemnation over two centuries. Furthermore the same Arab countries with outright complicity according to our and other's intelligence, still...sponsor such terrorism.

The fact remains, the west still does not see and hear enough from Arab leaders themselves and those in their own country on their national TV and not from under political and religious cover of the US, condemn this violent radicalism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

The funny thing is, some bigots tend to think Muslims are...afraid of bacon or that if it touches us we somehow become, I don't know, condemned for life. We don't eat bacon, that doesn't mean we somehow dislike pigs! There was incident recently where some losers threw a pig's head infront of a mosque's door. I suppose it was suppose to somehow terrify us. If you're going to be racist, at least have it right ;).

As for the coffee, can't get better than Tim Hortons, can it?

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

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ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

The funny thing is, some bigots tend to think Muslims are...afraid of bacon or that if it touches us we somehow become, I don't know, condemned for life. We don't eat bacon, that doesn't mean we somehow dislike pigs! There was incident recently where some losers threw a pig's head infront of a mosque's door. I suppose it was suppose to somehow terrify us. If you're going to be racist, at least have it right ;).

As for the coffee, can't get better than Tim Hortons, can it?

I was not referring to Muslims being afraid of pigs, but the fact that religious doctrine prevents them for eating it.

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ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

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ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

The funny thing is, some bigots tend to think Muslims are...afraid of bacon or that if it touches us we somehow become, I don't know, condemned for life. We don't eat bacon, that doesn't mean we somehow dislike pigs! There was incident recently where some losers threw a pig's head infront of a mosque's door. I suppose it was suppose to somehow terrify us. If you're going to be racist, at least have it right ;).

As for the coffee, can't get better than Tim Hortons, can it?

I was not referring to Muslims being afraid of pigs, but the fact that religious doctrine prevents them for eating it.

Oh, I know. To be clear, I wasn't accusing you of being racist. I was merely suggesting it's hilarious how some of those bigots tend to think.

And yes, religious doctrines does prevent Muslims from eating pork, as it does for Christians as well, to my understanding.

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ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

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ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

The funny thing is, some bigots tend to think Muslims are...afraid of bacon or that if it touches us we somehow become, I don't know, condemned for life. We don't eat bacon, that doesn't mean we somehow dislike pigs! There was incident recently where some losers threw a pig's head infront of a mosque's door. I suppose it was suppose to somehow terrify us. If you're going to be racist, at least have it right ;).

As for the coffee, can't get better than Tim Hortons, can it?

I was not referring to Muslims being afraid of pigs, but the fact that religious doctrine prevents them for eating it.

Oh, I know. To be clear, I wasn't accusing you of being racist. I was merely suggesting it's hilarious how some of those bigots tend to think.

And yes, religious doctrines does prevent Muslims from eating pork, as it does for Christians as well, to my understanding.

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bombs 100 children in the name of Christianity

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ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

The funny thing is, some bigots tend to think Muslims are...afraid of bacon or that if it touches us we somehow become, I don't know, condemned for life. We don't eat bacon, that doesn't mean we somehow dislike pigs! There was incident recently where some losers threw a pig's head infront of a mosque's door. I suppose it was suppose to somehow terrify us. If you're going to be racist, at least have it right ;).

As for the coffee, can't get better than Tim Hortons, can it?

I was not referring to Muslims being afraid of pigs, but the fact that religious doctrine prevents them for eating it.

Oh, I know. To be clear, I wasn't accusing you of being racist. I was merely suggesting it's hilarious how some of those bigots tend to think.

And yes, religious doctrines does prevent Muslims from eating pork, as it does for Christians as well, to my understanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

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ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Look, the problem is not the liberal/moderate Muslim who does NOT act on certain dogma or doctrine. The problem is the lack of condemnation of the Muslim radicalism. What the west needs to see is more Muslim public condemnation of the goals and tactics of the radicals and such as the fatwas.

We have seen far too little from the Muslim leaders and influential speakers to vocally, publicly and much more vociferously go after those who would actually act on their radicalism. Who condemned a national leader for actually assigning the fatwa (death sentence) on Rushdie ? Nobody. Who from a high position, publicly and with any distinction...condemned the radicals ? Far too few.

The west is dealing with the young and stupid who actually think paradise awaits their martyrdom. It is as much the Muslim leadership that is the problem with almost sanctioning these acts by omission, (silence) when they fail to condemn them.

So no, Islam is not a cancer, Islam is not the problem. As always, it is the leaders who fail to act and to say so, is in no way Islamophobia.



I know you read this section and contribute frequently so I find it rather implausable that you have not been disabused of your professed ignorance in this area. That being said there is no substance to your insipid rant because you have been informed on numerous occasions of the many and powerful arab leaders who have vociferously condemmed them. Currently there are tens of thousands of arabs in armed conflict with them.
Get a clue.

Could you link us to the meaningful Arab outrage over or at least specific condemnation of, the fatwa put on Rushdie and those who attacked Charlie Hebdo for just two. We see on the net and mainstream media, large crowds of demonstrators condemning almost every alleged offense again Islam and in even small various depictions of Mohammad. While most can find little in the higher ranks of Arabs, leaders or otherwise, speaking out against those. In fact, millions of Muslim people support such religious intolerance and partake in such uprisings.

Arab soldiers being sent to fight have about as much and in fact less influence over the Arab leaders govt. and religious, for their lack of outright condemnation of such attacks as our soldiers do over western policy that would send them to destroy and occupy Iraq. Show me just how the Arab world articulated and promulgated such condemnation of their mass intolerance.

MrRodgers: If you are actually sincerely interested in learning the opinions of the Muslim community you will look beyond the media and basic internet search. One will find anything to validate their beliefs on the internet.

The mainstream Muslims do not believe Rushdie should have been given a death sentence, nor do we believe the attacks on Charlie habdo were justified. Indeed freedom of speech has limits. We not shout fire in a crowded theater. But regardless of what one feels, violence is never a justified reaction.

If you truly wish to hear what the Muslims actually believe, perhaps you should get to know some actual Muslims. I promise we're harmless and have other life concerns just like everyone else. At the very least, at least listen to some mainstream popular Muslim scholars on these matters.

This is a five minutes video with regards to the Charlie Hadbo thing. He is the most well known and followed Muslim scholar in North America and the West in general. I would argue almost 90% of Muslims, especially young Muslims in America, follow him. You do not have to agree with all the he says, but at least you will get some real perspective as opposed to third party knowledge you gain from the media. When you get a chance, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym3Znb0wb7s

For both you and Thompson. In so far as what we see in most of those links I stand only partially corrected but I need more than what we see there. I still see too many reporters...reporting such condemnation. I want to see the Arab leaders themselves 'take it to the streets' as it were with personal condemnation. I want to see more than Arab/American here give a few speeches in the US. I believe that until we do...this violence goes on forever.

You do see that from what I got from watching several links, these were Arab/Americans and almost exclusively Arab and Muslim American community clerics and not the highest ranking Arab leaders from the ME, so still conspicuous by their absence is an Arab leader himself actually coming out against such atrocities themselves rather than safely behind some spokesmen or some collective communique.

Plus I can't testify as to whether or not or what Mohammad was actually to have believed but we know by his actions I have it that he killed many 1000's in his conquests declaring them to be the infidel.

Arab diplomats told Thomas Jefferson in France when asked about boarding our ships stealing the freight and killing or enslaving our sailors while attempting to sail past N. Africa in the late 1700's and early 1800's, or sinfully demand and accept ransom, was told that Allah told them they had the right according to the Qoran as all others were again...the infidel.

Here we are over 200 years later and far, far too many Arab Muslims don't just hold that belief but are still acting on that belief and without nearly enough condemnation over two centuries. Furthermore the same Arab countries with outright complicity according to our and other's intelligence, still...sponsor such terrorism.

The fact remains, the west still does not see and hear enough from Arab leaders themselves and those in their own country on their national TV and not from under political and religious cover of the US, condemn this violent radicalism.

Are you serious? Arab leaders don't condemn these acts of violence? This is what I mean by you getting your research only from loony nutwing sites. More Muslims are dying at the hands of these fanatics than non-Muslims, so for you to say arab leaders don't condemn these acts is you not paying attention. Further, no one needs to prove to you. We don't ask you to condemn every time a right wing Christian nut goes and bombs an abortion clinic or shoots at a black Church or bombs 100 children in the name of Christianity. We don't see demonstrations by white christians in public about that, nor do we expect to or want to. Because they shouldn't have to! We naturally assume, as we rightly should, that those acts of violence and perpetrators of those acts do not represent the mainstream Christian values. The Muslims are not obligated to condemn every time some nut job commits an act of violence in the name of Islam. And more importantly, majority of arabs and Muslims also don't approve of the autocratic arab leaders who suppress freedom. Unfortunately, they are supported by western policies. Majority of the arab Muslims wish for democracy. And even more importantly, your obsession with 'arabs' and 'muslims' in the same sentence needs a little thought. Majority of the world's Muslims are actually non-arabs.

As for the Prophet (peace be upon him), we do not need to agree on that. Regardless of what we believe about each others history, our only realistic option for peace is to come together as communities and work together for peace. Muslims want to defeat terrorism and these fanatic nuts more than you do. And you can have a discussion with any Muslim regarding the actions of the Prophet. But since you make such bold statements, I ask you, what objective books have you read regarding Muhammad? Objective is the keyword. Ideally, in order to gain true knowledge of anything, you should read some pro and anti books/articles to compare each other to arrive at the truth. So far anyone with whom I have had a similar discussion who made the claims that you have made, have either picked random quotes from the Qur'an or have sources from known Islamophobes whose only job seems to be bashing Muslims. It's like asking a republican to take only sources from known democratic and anti-republican sites seriously. In fact, it's worse than that.

I kindly ask you to watch some videos and articles on the following three mainstream Muslim scholars in the west: Hamza Yusuf, Abdal Hakim Murad and Imam Zaid Shakir.

I am assuming your intentions are sincere and you wish to have an honest discussion and learn, otherwise there is no point in argument. I appreciate that you accept you're at least partially corrected.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

I was impressed by Moslems going to Mass after the attack in Normandy, and the local Imam refusing to bury the terrorists.

Me too. In fact, I think I may be the person who posted that. Blanket statements about Muslims are poorly conceived, I think, and no more valid than blanket statements about Christians. In my view, rabid fundamentalists, both Christian and Islamic, are a separate matter and should be recognized as such.

K.