quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

They seem to come in packs............

quote:

ORIGINAL: TSnGG2dressuup

Am I the only one who read the OP?  I do not care if you are a sub, Dom, Domme, switch, alien or troll.  It is reasonable to expect any adult to KEEP HER/HIS WORD!!  Trust is the foundation of any realtionship, especially a LS relationship.  And a sub who uses mistrust to get their kink on by getting 'punished' has got to go, sooner the better.  A Dom/Domme who enables them to keep being dishonest and rewarding the dishonesty is the loser in the end.  Caretaker is correct when it comes to keeping your word.  How many times DO we need to ask?  Any child over 7 years old knows what honesty is.  Anyone not doing so is deliberately seeking negative attention.   Yes, like a bratty child.  You are not all retarded.   So, I am supposed to threaten you with a good time?  The things you crave?  To encourage the negative behaviour?  Thats nuts and no good Dom/Domme or parent would do that.   If you are still doing that as an adult, your parents didn't do a good job and you probably should seek professional help to fix it.  I worked with disturbed kids in SS also; they pull this crap all the time.  We dont cater to them, either.  They would be in charge then.  Its inappropriate for adults and is an issue not to bring into an adult relationship regardless of role.  I didn't see Caretakr say there is no room to work out difficult issues.  I see Him say keep your word.  Get over it.

Peace,
Goddess

quote:

Noah said:

And if there is anyone left in the WORLD who still believes that you can't punish a masochist, drop her off at my house. I promise you I will prove myself to be the the Copernicus who will re-arrange the planets of your psychological world view. You will be able to do ALL THE BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION YOU WANT just by THREATENING whats left of her with a return visit. And there is no set of limits that I can't do it within. Copernicus ..or was it Ptolemy? Anyway ...

Ahh, it was worth coming to CM just to read that . Another good 'un, Noah.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

Some of us never spouted about the right or wrong, we spouted because caretakr does this each weekend, throws a topic out there and then gripes when people disagree---now given that--if he is open and honest with his submissives, then there is no issue, if he is not and then the surprises hit---that to Me is not acceptable--and btw I could say you travel in packs too, but My dignity won't let Me stoop that low--ahem.
 
As he said, "it is My right to do with them as I please"---hardly unless there is an agreement to so so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

it doesn't excuse anything... not the way you posted.. nor the responses to it...

you get what you pay for...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

Some of us never spouted about the right or wrong, we spouted because caretakr does this each weekend, throws a topic out there and then gripes when people disagree---now given that--if he is open and honest with his submissives, then there is no issue, if he is not and then the surprises hit---that to Me is not acceptable--and btw I could say you travel in packs too, but My dignity won't let Me stoop that low--ahem.
 
As he said, "it is My right to do with them as I please"---hardly unless there is an agreement to so so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

I think anyone who didn't--isn't dealing with introspection.

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ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

(fast reply, here, because I got tired in a hurry of reading some of the repititous drek)

This sort of thing is another in the same catagory as far as I'm concerned.  Taking something as personal that isn't, and expecting everyone to Constantly say "hey, this is only my opinion."
 
By the time we've been using a Public Forum for more than a few days/posts - we Should all be mature enough, thick skinned enough, and intelligent enough to figure out that - Hey, what someone writes is their Opinion.  And HEY, I'm not obligated to Agree with their opinion!
 
Geoff and Caretakr make some very valid points - points that, surprise, I happen to agree with.  Adults are not animals to be trained like a puppy or monkey.  A relationship isn't a circus side show.  Punishement - as opposed to Discipline - is for children.  And someone who is still a Child rather than an Adult is in no condition emotionally to be in a Relationship in the first place.  Having a Kink of being childlike at times with your partner doesn't even begin to enter into what we're talking about here - it's NOT an All The Time Thing where someone is basically acting incompitant on a 24/7 basis because they don't want to be a personally responcible adult.

quote:


Seems my Karma ran over your Dogma. Keep your dogma on a tighter leash and it won't happen again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah



And if there is anyone left in the WORLD who still believes that you can't punish a masochist, drop her off at my house. I promise you I will prove myself to be the the Copernicus who will re-arrange the planets of your psychological world view. You will be able to do ALL THE BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION YOU WANT just by THREATENING whats left of her with a return visit. And there is no set of limits that I can't do it within. Copernicus ..or was it Ptolemy? Anyway ...

And I aint' braggin'. I'm just sayin'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
But come on, you didn't just talk about your preferences. You were telling us about how "people like that" are "losers" and "selfish" and <shudder> Catholic!

Actually you said "catholic" which taken literally is ironically true, kinda. But I'm pretty sure you meant "Catholic".

But you have clearly gotten over this morning's fit of whatchamacallit while the harpies and sycophants have welded themselves to what you've moved on from.

So for the benefit of those of us who have had a nice nap and awakened refreshed I'd like to draw attention to this post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TSnGG2dressuup

Am I the only one who read the OP?  I do not care if you are a sub, Dom, Domme, switch, alien or troll.  It is reasonable to expect any adult to KEEP HER/HIS WORD!!  Trust is the foundation of any realtionship, especially a LS relationship.  And a sub who uses mistrust to get their kink on by getting 'punished' has got to go, sooner the better.  A Dom/Domme who enables them to keep being dishonest and rewarding the dishonesty is the loser in the end.  Caretaker is correct when it comes to keeping your word.  How many times DO we need to ask?  Any child over 7 years old knows what honesty is.  Anyone not doing so is deliberately seeking negative attention.   Yes, like a bratty child.  You are not all retarded.   So, I am supposed to threaten you with a good time?  The things you crave?  To encourage the negative behaviour?  Thats nuts and no good Dom/Domme or parent would do that.   If you are still doing that as an adult, your parents didn't do a good job and you probably should seek professional help to fix it.  I worked with disturbed kids in SS also; they pull this crap all the time.  We dont cater to them, either.  They would be in charge then.  Its inappropriate for adults and is an issue not to bring into an adult relationship regardless of role.  I didn't see Caretakr say there is no room to work out difficult issues.  I see Him say keep your word.  Get over it.

Peace,
Goddess

Now this is all we need. Some would-be trend setter who actually claims to have read the OP.

To venture a few degrees in a new direction I'll put a question. Let's say hypothetically that is a no-no to ask (expect, whatever) a partner to put a band-aid on your emotional boo boos, weaknesses, etc.

Won't a whole lot of lovely, tasty stuff get ruled out of court here?

Let's say I'm feeling a little daunted about the big new contract I'm starting tomorrow (I wish). Maybe I'm lying in bed, mind racing around among the challenges and preparations and depriving me of the sleep I'll need to do a good job.

Should I be saintly enough to chant Om mani padme whatever a few times and drift off to efficient sleep? Yeah. But maybe I'm not. Now let's say it so happens that there is a little procedure which the woman lying next to me can do to get me past my emotionally immature worrying long enough to nod off and catch some z's. And maybe this is a pattern in my life. Maybe every time I have a new job starting she gets roused from her slumber to polish the old apple. The horror.

Now I know this enlightened crew won't begrudge a top the perogative of demanding certain things from his bottom, in general. But this is clearly a case where if I were "evolved" enough I wouldn't "need" this. It is a manifestation of a weakness of mine which results in demands being placed on my partner which would not be so placed otherwise.

How about if my partner is up late gnawing on concerns about--whateverthehell subbies concern themselves with--and can't sleep. Maybe she politely and deferentially asks for a pain application to adjust her body chemistry and just distract her from her rutted thoughts so that she can get some shut-eye.

In each case, if both parties are willing participants, what's wrong with this?

Stay tuned for the analogy part.

Now why should we see these "band-aids on emotional weaknesses" differently than we see a case where a sub has issues which respond well to what some people call punishment--not impromptu groovy pain play but real aversive punishment.

And if there is anyone left in the WORLD who still believes that you can't punish a masochist, drop her off at my house. I promise you I will prove myself to be the the Copernicus who will re-arrange the planets of your psychological world view. You will be able to do ALL THE BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION YOU WANT just by THREATENING whats left of her with a return visit. And there is no set of limits that I can't do it within. Copernicus ..or was it Ptolemy? Anyway ...

And I aint' braggin'. I'm just sayin'.

If I am not an intolerable emotional child for wanting my cookies dusted at bedtime and if my partner is not an intolerable emotional child for really appreciating a strategic walloping on a regular basis on what ground do we rule that the couple who choose to incorporate a punishment dynamic are so far beneath us?

As for TSnGG's talk about someone manipulating her Dom to get her kink on, well that is one sort of scenario and can be dealt with on it's merits. I think it is another sort of scenario where a person--a real live flesh and blood flawed like the rest of us person--has despite all sorts of other wonderful accomplishments not yet learned to reliably and seamlessly process guilt feelings without assistance. I don't see the latter person as doing anything remotely like manipulating her Dom to get her kink on.

In some relationships, vanilla and rocky road, people admit their weaknesses to one another and yes ask for assistance. In a range of relationships the assistance will take on a range of forms and appearances.

If I just fucking refuse to tolerate shit like giving reassuring hugs to people who can't seem to get through a loved ones funeral without needing one, I should find a compatible partner. I mean, it's like: "Go hug yourself, bitch! You pulled this same weak-ass shit when your mother died. If your sister comes out of that cancer ward in a box you damn well better not go getting all clingy on my Domly ass or I'll go and find sombody mature."

But should I come here and post that anyone who requires emotional assistance of a kind I don't like to give is a Loser and Immature and so forth?

I don't think so.

Now I'm not talking about Caretakr's particular situations and neither should you be since neither of us knows enough about them. And besides I was on his nuts long enough today. I'm answering those making (wet) blanket statements about how punishment just has no place in mature adult relationships.

So here's the thing. Why are lots of forms of even chronic, repetitive emotional assistance okay (some of you have heard of the concept, for instance, of "aftercare") while other forms like punishment are not?

Are some demands for assistance just ... just plain pathological? I'll bet we could all agree on some that indeed are. But for these self-righteous people to post ad nauseum about how a TWUE Dom gives plenty of aftercare, and then log on to say that another form of consensual emotional support is just plain fucked up, well I think that's just plain fucked up.

I am totally cool if your kink is to consensually grind your heel on any show of weakness and call it tough love. Hell, maybe you aren't even kidding yourself, and I mean that sincerely. I just don't know how it is contextualized for you and your partner, what meaning arises in that for you. Therefore I can't say whether it is immature, highly evolved, or lemon scented.

I'm not cool with people who obviously don't appreciate how a certain dynamic (e.g. punishment, fear, etc.) works in other people's relationships spouting off all high and mighty about how right they are and how wrong anyone is who disagrees with them, and not only wrong but wrong in ways that lay them open to character attacks.