quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And your draconian gun laws leave you with no lower murder rate than you had when they were passed. In the same time with increased ccws our murder rate has been cut in half.

The US murder rate per 100,000 is 12,996 (higher than Uganda, Sudan and Kenya).
The UK murder rate per 100,000 is 722.

And do you have a reliable and legit cite for your 'cut in half' premise??
Coz that's not what I see in the stats.
The criminaljusticedegreehub.com website states: 14,827 people were murdered in the US last year. This is way down from the 24,526 US murders in 1993.
So it's still not 'cut in half' as you have stated - and that's over 23 years!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

Just to reiterate the UK has five times fewer murders than the US per head of population, and that is pretty much in keeping with other non-weaponised western democracies.

The UK is not some wonderful paradise and I do not think that our society is better than the US. I have been to the US a number of times and have the greatest respect for the country.

There are of course variations in murder rates, depending on what is happening in the communities in other western democracies, some with less murder than the UK, some more.

The US is more by almost 500% - that is a huge difference in terms of the numbers and puts the US in the same league as some very troubled societies.

The big difference is guns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

Just to reiterate the UK has five times fewer murders than the US per head of population, and that is pretty much in keeping with other non-weaponised western democracies.

The UK is not some wonderful paradise and I do not think that our society is better than the US. I have been to the US a number of times and have the greatest respect for the country.

There are of course variations in murder rates, depending on what is happening in the communities in other western democracies, some with less murder than the UK, some more.

The US is more by almost 500% - that is a huge difference in terms of the numbers and puts the US in the same league as some very troubled societies.

The big difference is guns.

You go ahead and think the big difference is guns but you are wrong.

You people were ordered to turn in your guns and you complied.

If they try that shit here we will not comply.

Get it ? That is the difference, the PEOPLE.

The difference is fading. the old school people who believe it is better to have it and not need it are dying off, leaving those without the common sense to figure that out. So eventually they will turn in their guns. But it is not going to happen in my lifetime.

T^T

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And your draconian gun laws leave you with no lower murder rate than you had when they were passed. In the same time with increased ccws our murder rate has been cut in half.

The US murder rate per 100,000 is 12,996 (higher than Uganda, Sudan and Kenya).
The UK murder rate per 100,000 is 722.

And do you have a reliable and legit cite for your 'cut in half' premise??
Coz that's not what I see in the stats.
The criminaljusticedegreehub.com website states: 14,827 people were murdered in the US last year. This is way down from the 24,526 US murders in 1993.
So it's still not 'cut in half' as you have stated - and that's over 23 years!!

I suspect those are total murder figures rather than rates which still puts the US at around four times the murder rate than the UK.

Depending on the source you seems to get between four and five times. It's still an awful big difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

Just to reiterate the UK has five times fewer murders than the US per head of population, and that is pretty much in keeping with other non-weaponised western democracies.

The UK is not some wonderful paradise and I do not think that our society is better than the US. I have been to the US a number of times and have the greatest respect for the country.

There are of course variations in murder rates, depending on what is happening in the communities in other western democracies, some with less murder than the UK, some more.

The US is more by almost 500% - that is a huge difference in terms of the numbers and puts the US in the same league as some very troubled societies.

The big difference is guns.

You go ahead and think the big difference is guns but you are wrong.

You people were ordered to turn in your guns and you complied.

If they try that shit here we will not comply.

Get it ? That is the difference, the PEOPLE.

The difference is fading. the old school people who believe it is better to have it and not need it are dying off, leaving those without the common sense to figure that out. So eventually they will turn in their guns. But it is not going to happen in my lifetime.

T^T

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

I'm sure social attitudes to guns are different in the US and Europe, but those social attitudes are partly because people are different and partly because the laws are so different.

If I grew up in a country where guns were available and there were many gun deaths I might feel more inclined to "defend myself" by having a gun. If you never have a gun and never needed one you tend to think differently.

The change (if people want it to happen) will take decades and generations. The question, I suppose, is whether people are willing to take the first steps knowing that legitimate gun ownership will reduce before criminal gun ownership does.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And your draconian gun laws leave you with no lower murder rate than you had when they were passed. In the same time with increased ccws our murder rate has been cut in half.

The US murder rate per 100,000 is 12,996 (higher than Uganda, Sudan and Kenya).
The UK murder rate per 100,000 is 722.

And do you have a reliable and legit cite for your 'cut in half' premise??
Coz that's not what I see in the stats.
The criminaljusticedegreehub.com website states: 14,827 people were murdered in the US last year. This is way down from the 24,526 US murders in 1993.
So it's still not 'cut in half' as you have stated - and that's over 23 years!!

I suspect those are total murder figures rather than rates which still puts the US at around four times the murder rate than the UK.

Depending on the source you seems to get between four and five times. It's still an awful big difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And your draconian gun laws leave you with no lower murder rate than you had when they were passed. In the same time with increased ccws our murder rate has been cut in half.

The US murder rate per 100,000 is 12,996 (higher than Uganda, Sudan and Kenya).
The UK murder rate per 100,000 is 722.

And do you have a reliable and legit cite for your 'cut in half' premise??
Coz that's not what I see in the stats.
The criminaljusticedegreehub.com website states: 14,827 people were murdered in the US last year. This is way down from the 24,526 US murders in 1993.
So it's still not 'cut in half' as you have stated - and that's over 23 years!!

I suspect those are total murder figures rather than rates which still puts the US at around four times the murder rate than the UK.

Depending on the source you seems to get between four and five times. It's still an awful big difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

The figures I quoted were per 100,000 capita.
It is also spread over 23 YEARS.
The recent raw figure is still just over 60% from 23 years ago - not half.

And there's a HUGE difference between 12,996 and 722.
That's an 18x difference in the numbers even when normalised.
So you'd have to decrease your deaths by more than 95% to get even close to ours.

The figures don't lie bama.
Even if you reduced your figures at the same rate, it'll still take you more than a century to catch up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Improvements by such tiny margins (relatively speaking) so it's gonna take you over a century to get close is not something to be crowing about.

It's a start, granted.
But you need something really drastic to cut those numbers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And your draconian gun laws leave you with no lower murder rate than you had when they were passed. In the same time with increased ccws our murder rate has been cut in half.

The US murder rate per 100,000 is 12,996 (higher than Uganda, Sudan and Kenya).
The UK murder rate per 100,000 is 722.

And do you have a reliable and legit cite for your 'cut in half' premise??
Coz that's not what I see in the stats.
The criminaljusticedegreehub.com website states: 14,827 people were murdered in the US last year. This is way down from the 24,526 US murders in 1993.
So it's still not 'cut in half' as you have stated - and that's over 23 years!!

I suspect those are total murder figures rather than rates which still puts the US at around four times the murder rate than the UK.

Depending on the source you seems to get between four and five times. It's still an awful big difference.

Still a masisve drop is it not, ane the exact number depends on the sources you use.
BTW the FBI figures for last year are not yet avaliable so I don't know where these numbers come from.
The most recent FBI figures puts the number at about 11,000, that not only pus the gross closser to 50% but since there are a lot more people the rate would be greater than the gross decrease.

Get you story straight, you give two different numbers for our gross number of muerders one of which when taking the population into account come real close to a 50% decrease in the murder rate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And your draconian gun laws leave you with no lower murder rate than you had when they were passed. In the same time with increased ccws our murder rate has been cut in half.

The US murder rate per 100,000 is 12,996 (higher than Uganda, Sudan and Kenya).
The UK murder rate per 100,000 is 722.

And do you have a reliable and legit cite for your 'cut in half' premise??
Coz that's not what I see in the stats.
The criminaljusticedegreehub.com website states: 14,827 people were murdered in the US last year. This is way down from the 24,526 US murders in 1993.
So it's still not 'cut in half' as you have stated - and that's over 23 years!!

I suspect those are total murder figures rather than rates which still puts the US at around four times the murder rate than the UK.

Depending on the source you seems to get between four and five times. It's still an awful big difference.

Still a masisve drop is it not, ane the exact number depends on the sources you use.
BTW the FBI figures for last year are not yet avaliable so I don't know where these numbers come from.
The most recent FBI figures puts the number at about 11,000, that not only pus the gross closser to 50% but since there are a lot more people the rate would be greater than the gross decrease.

Get you story straight, you give two different numbers for our gross number of muerders one of which when taking the population into account come real close to a 50% decrease in the murder rate.

The story is simple. The differences are a matter of degree. The US by the most conservative methods has something like four times the murder rate that the UK has. The different sources give you different rates. Those differences are there with all stats, but arguing the precise figures does not change the central message.

If you really want to have your socks blown off by a particular version of the stats have a look at the official OECD stats. That is the list of countries the US should be comparing itself to. Leaving Mexico aside, the US has the highest murder rate, a bit higher than but comparable with Estonia and Chile. These four countries really stand out compared to all other OECD. Israel has a murder rate less than half the US as the next highest - the rest are all much lower. Canada has less than a third of the US rate and the UK has less than a tenth the murder rate of the US, with the UK rate itself halving in the last 20 years. OECD murder rates

I did not use the OECD figures because they are so extreme, however by any measure the US stands out compared to all but three of the other OECD countries. The US could half its current murder rate, and then half it again, and still be some way off the top half of the OECD murder rate table.

It's not a competition. UK rates are nothing to be proud of. The point is about gun law and gun culture.

Many years ago the fledgling United States decided to enshrine the right to bear arms in law in a way that continues to be interpreted as the right of private individuals to own and carry weapons (yes I am aware of all the nuances in that oversimplification). The result of the continuation of those laws (once again I am aware of the State law variations and the possible interpretations of the Constitution) is that a peaceful US has the best armed citizens in the western world. It also has by far the most gun crime in the western world (we are talking figures like 50 times more than many countries). The murder rate is also higher in the US, not by a few percentage points or even by 100% but by many times - around four times higher than the UK (or much more depending on where you source your stats) which does not by any stretch of the imagination have the lowest murder rates.

Gun ownership and gun culture are a big part of that difference.

I am not suggesting that a law can be passed and it all becomes okay. De-weaponising US society would be a massive and difficult task.

It should be recognised that the easy availability of guns are a major problem and that innocent people are dying as a result. The issue of what should be done is a complex one for US society but hiding from the connection between guns and murder rates is just getting more people killed.

It is for civil society to decide what should be done but surely doing nothing is burying your head in the sand. There are however obviously no quick fixes and I would not insult anyone by pretending that there were.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Improvements by such tiny margins (relatively speaking) so it's gonna take you over a century to get close is not something to be crowing about.

It's a start, granted.
But you need something really drastic to cut those numbers.

Over 40% isn't drastic?
What we need to do to bring it way down is bust up the gangs in the inner citys, that would crash our crime rate.
And still we are making faster than you are.
Even the person using two different numbers for our murder rates shows a minimum 40% drop, and with one set of figures he used in that post shows that when compared to the population growth is very close to 50%.
Anyone who says that this is a tiny margin is an idiot.
If we continue this rate of progress for the next 40 years we will have matched your rate without violating peoples rights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Improvements by such tiny margins (relatively speaking) so it's gonna take you over a century to get close is not something to be crowing about.

It's a start, granted.
But you need something really drastic to cut those numbers.

Over 40% isn't drastic?
What we need to do to bring it way down is bust up the gangs in the inner citys, that would crash our crime rate.
And still we are making faster than you are.
Even the person using two different numbers for our murder rates shows a minimum 40% drop, and with one set of figures he used in that post shows that when compared to the population growth is very close to 50%.
Anyone who says that this is a tiny margin is an idiot.
If we continue this rate of progress for the next 40 years we will have matched your rate without violating peoples rights.

I think you are confusing rates with absolute numbers to create a conclusion which is wrong.

Except for in Mexico, Chile and Israel murder rates in the rest of the OECD have more than halved in the last twenty years. US rates have also just about halved but are still at a far higher rate than everyone else.

Leaving aside tiny Estonia, the difference between the group containing Mexico, Chile, Israel and the US , and the rest of the OECD is specifically the strict laws on owning guns in almost all European countries.

As I always say, nothing infringes your rights quite like bullet in the head (or anywhere else for that matter).

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Improvements by such tiny margins (relatively speaking) so it's gonna take you over a century to get close is not something to be crowing about.

It's a start, granted.
But you need something really drastic to cut those numbers.

Over 40% isn't drastic?
What we need to do to bring it way down is bust up the gangs in the inner citys, that would crash our crime rate.
And still we are making faster than you are.
Even the person using two different numbers for our murder rates shows a minimum 40% drop, and with one set of figures he used in that post shows that when compared to the population growth is very close to 50%.
Anyone who says that this is a tiny margin is an idiot.
If we continue this rate of progress for the next 40 years we will have matched your rate without violating peoples rights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Improvements by such tiny margins (relatively speaking) so it's gonna take you over a century to get close is not something to be crowing about.

It's a start, granted.
But you need something really drastic to cut those numbers.

Over 40% isn't drastic?
What we need to do to bring it way down is bust up the gangs in the inner citys, that would crash our crime rate.
And still we are making faster than you are.
Even the person using two different numbers for our murder rates shows a minimum 40% drop, and with one set of figures he used in that post shows that when compared to the population growth is very close to 50%.
Anyone who says that this is a tiny margin is an idiot.
If we continue this rate of progress for the next 40 years we will have matched your rate without violating peoples rights.

40 years? And you call that progress???

I guess it is, but it's very slow progress.
Compare that to what other first-world countries did.
They slashed those figures to almost zero in one fell swoop.
Now that's progress!!