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When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 3:48:00 PM

KnightofMists

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In D/s and M/s relationships there is an authority transfer from one to the other. This one person has been given power of decision to one degree or another. But, Dominants, as much as we would love to be, are not prefect. Sometimes we make mistakes or wrong choices in the areas we have authority in. Sometimes these mistakes are minor and sometimes they are major! The degree of consequence is always varied depending on the significance of the mistake.

What I would like contributed from the Dominant side of the coin is this; Do you deal with your mistakes that are seen the eyes of your submissive? Also, what are you feelings when you make this mistake? What are you looking for from your submissive at these times? I ask that you express your thoughts specifically to submissives so they can better appreciate how we as Dominants think on this inevitable situation. I also ask you share it for Dominants to so that we can all learn on what has worked as techniques in managing this situation for the betterment of the relationship.

What I would like contributed from the Submissives side of the coin is this; How do you deal with the mistakes your Dominant makes? What are you expecting from your Dominant at these times and what do you specifically do for your Dominant during these situations. Again, I ask you share it for us Dominants so we can better appreciate what your thoughts and feelings are when we screw up. I also ask that you share it for other submissives so they can learn different ways on approaching what can be a very difficult situation.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

Post #: 1

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 3:59:56 PM

Level

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quote:

Knight wrote:

What I would like contributed from the Dominant side of the coin is this; Do you deal with your mistakes that are seen the eyes of your submissive? Also, what are you feelings when you make this mistake? What are you looking for from your submissive at these times?

Excellent thread, Knight. I absolutely deal with any mistakes I make. If one doesn't, it can erode the confidence a submissive needs in the dominant, and if for no other reason, it's morally right to own up to your mistakes.

None of this makes it easy; some dominants have rather large egos ... I know I can at times. My desire to grow, and learn, and be the best person I can usually overrides those feelings, though.

What I would look for in a submissive at such a time is understanding. We're all humans, and fallible, being dominant does not in any way change that.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:01:49 PM

Cloudz

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Do I deal with mistakes that are viewed as mistakes by my submissive's? If my submissive brings it to my attention that he feels I have done something in error, we will discuss it. If he is incorrect, no harm done - assuming the subject was broached with respect. If my submissive brings something to my attention or I become aware of a mistake - I attempt to correct it as soon and as completely as possible. There have been times when that has included a heartfelt apology to the injured party (my submissive.) I do not ask or expect complete perfection from my submissive's or myself. We are fallible human beings, I do expect - from all parties - growth from lessons learned. What do I look for from my submissive at these times? Respect, understanding, compassion, and a willingness to accept growth from the experience. I do not feel the need to present as infallible to my submissive or anyone else. I do expect myself to present as a woman of honor, ethics, and intelligence. My personal ethics require that I admit my mistakes, correct them, and learn from them.

_____________________________

Enjoy the Journey,
~Cloudz

"Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain."

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:04:30 PM

angelic

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Joined: 1/24/2005
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if my Master has made a mistake... i expect Him to acknowledge that He did so... not 'sweep' it under the rug and say He did it because He could... i own my own mistakes i expect the same of anyone that owns me.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

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RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:07:59 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I posted this on another thread, but I think it belongs on yours more so...

This is my opinion (disclaimer up front). A mature dominant is going to know that he isn't perfect and makes misjudments and even acts poorly at times. If he values the respect of his submissive then he is going to apologize if he does something wrong. Because the power is his he has the responsibility to be self correcting. He accepted this responsibility when he signed up to be a dominant. In a way it is the harder role to play within the relationship because he is assuming responsibility for you and for himself. Like any parent knows, it is not easy to discipline those who count on you, those who love you, and those you only want the best for... at times this is necessary. That is why I say a good dominant can admit to their own mistakes and take responsibility for them... a good parent does too. A good parent doesn't punish because they want to or because it is easy, they do it because they care. That to me is what a good dominant does too... and dominants that discipline wisely will have to do it rarely. A dominant that is wise will address his own failings before he points out yours... just my thoughts

This is the portion I added for this thread:

My Dom has had one occasion to apologize to me. He was sincere and direct. It was hard to tell him that there was something that he had done that hurt my feelings. I tried to down play it, I tried to minimize my feelings, but he would not let me do that. He validated my feelings. I do not think anyone else has ever shown that kind of maturity when I have expressed a negative emotion to them. It may not be that way the next time, but it certainly will echo in my mind that he is a big enough Dom to admit to his mistakes. All I can say is...wow, he grew 10 feet in my eyes that day...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/22/2006 4:09:33 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:09:08 PM

enthralled

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/13/2005
From: Nashville, Tn
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Such a good question KnightofMists .....

Above all, dominants ARE human beings, made of flesh, blood, bones .... they WILL make mistakes!!!
What I want is- when a mistake is made, that it's deemed a mistake and actions are taken to rectify the situation. The only problem I have with those who make mistakes are the one's who refuse to acknowledge it.
If there is no acknowledgement, no admittance, no communication .... I feel there's no way to correct anything if they feel they do nothing wrong..... that goes for both ends of the spectrum. After all, I'm going to make mistakes as well ......

How can one learn from what they can't see?

~enthralled

_____________________________

A man never discloses his own character so clearly as when he describes another's.-Jean Paul Richter

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RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:14:50 PM

DesertRat

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From: NM/USA
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I own my mistakes and learn from them...or at least I hope that is the case. In order for that to happen, I need clear communication from my slave. It is sometimes easier to say than to do. What I want from my girl is to be forgiven, but I do not expect that to come unconditionally. She has to have reasons to believe the mistake will not happen again. Some specific remedy may need to be implemented, and this all has to be worked out between us. Just saying "it won't happen again" is not enough.

Bob

< Message edited by DesertRat -- 7/22/2006 4:15:53 PM >

_____________________________

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro--Hunter S. Thompson
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide!--Chief Dead St. Knockout, 1933, Liverpool
Damn the crops. I'll only find peace at the end of a rope.--Winston Van Loo, 1911

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 7

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:15:28 PM

Caretakr

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Joined: 6/24/2006
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My need to keep my relationship strong will always overcome my ego.

Eating crow is very distasteful, but it has to be done at times. But that's not a bad thing,you tend not to forget.

(in reply to enthralled)

Post #: 8

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:21:47 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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I deal with misstakes as they arise.
One way to keep them to a minimum is to have an open line of *communication* with your sub or slave.
If something is bothering her about me or our relationship in anyway I surely want to know about it!
If for instance she wants sex outside of "sex on demand" for instance. Or if she'd like to try something new in the relationship that I'm not doing I want her to come to me about it. Absolutely.
As Doms we have privilidges but along with those privilidges comes responsibility.
You're responsable for your sub's or slave's, safety, care, housing in many cases, her health, and her happiness in the relationship.
She is "under your charge" as it were.
It's called feedback. Something like that I don't consider "topping from the bottom." If there is something in the relationship that is bothering her I damn sure want to know about it.
Good thread, Knight!

(in reply to Cloudz)

Post #: 9

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:25:48 PM

NastyDaddy

Posts: 957
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline

I confess I've got mud on my face, I'm a big discrace and I ought to be splattering my remorse all over this place...

To all you lovely wonderful submissives: I am sorry for all the times I f**ked up in the past, and I'm way sorry for all the times I'm gonna f**kup in the future.

For all you paperback pansy Dominants: ummm to sum it all up... what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas... when you are up to your eyeballs in deep shit... yada nada!

On a more serious note, to err is human and to forgive is pecan divinity (or something else that good).
Mistakes do happen but repeated mistakes are not mistakes, they are problems and require diagnosis.

Please keep me away from those persons who make no mistakes... and especially away from those who won't admit to their's.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 10

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:26:32 PM

reticence

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Joined: 2/28/2006
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Hi Kom

Excellent question

There are lots of things to consider when making a decision. Especially if it impacts the one you love. If I think my One has made a mistake about something that is really important, I respectfully bring it to his attention. How he deals with it from there is his business.
I always try to keep in mind that there are many ways to achieve a desired result. Just because he is not doing it my way (even if my way is the best, easiest, most practical , according to me, of course) does not make it a mistake. Like any human being, he is not perfect and does make mistakes, it is not mine to indict him every time he makes one. Nor is it mine to point out all of his personality flaws. Like everyone else in this world, he will take responsibility for the decision he made, and make it right or somehow face the consequences.
If he keeps making the same mistake over and over, it might be time to discuss it and readress the relationship, especially if the mistake is concerning the relationship, or a promise he made to me, or something like that. It is nice to get an apology if the mistake was intentional and it hurt me somehow. He would apologize in that case, he has.

I dont think there are many irreversible mistakes to be had in life. He would keep my respect if he remained true to himself, tried to make it right, and moved on.

(in reply to enthralled)

Post #: 11

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:29:31 PM

truesub4u

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I personally do not want a dom who is mistake-free... living in fear the rest of my life... isn't my idea of fun at all.

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 12

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:41:32 PM

WyrdRich

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Joined: 1/3/2005
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       Perhaps this is just my own weird take...

     People who insist on being viewed as perfect beyond question and incapable of error lose all my respect very quickly.

      Laughter is part of my scene/play, switchever side of the game I'm on. If a mistake is made, we laugh about it. (Mind you, I'm enough of a smart-ass that I'm attempting to crack jokes with a heavy sadist working out on my back with a pair of floggers). Deny the error and it is a problem. A mistake will not cost you my respect, how you handle it can.

     From the Top, my sub is perfectly free to laugh with me and to express her opinion if she paid the price of my error (Did that wrap and catch you on the earlobe??). I might reply with something like "Yeah, seems like I can't swing this thing for shit today. Course, the bad news is that I've still got you strapped in and I'm not done yet." The scene flows on from there and I'm not acting like a jerk about it.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 13

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:48:59 PM

Tamerofwild1s

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I have to agree KoM .... as humans we are not without flaw and capable of making error. When I make an error with a sub I own up to it .. I set her down and say simply look .. things will happen and I as much as you will argue .. am in fact human . I made a mistake and this is what we can learn from this . and proceed to go over everything . what I look for from her is understanding as well as seeing that I am in fact big enough and Master enough to admit when I make errors . I think in this I will raise the level of her trust in me and I will raise her confidence in me. we are never to experienced in this lifestyle not too grow nad learn ... and if we keep our minds open to learning from mistakes we will make our relationships grow as well. We will infact become better Masters and Doms all the way around.

I know when I personally make a mistake I take it very hard on myself as I feel I let the submissive down in making a mistake .... specially if it was something stupid that should never have been done .. I think I beat myself up worse then any sub/slave ever could

< Message edited by Tamerofwild1s -- 7/22/2006 4:53:23 PM >

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:50:26 PM

puella

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What an interesting question; thank you KnightofMists.

I know no one (especially myself) is perfect, and I would never get involved in a relationship with a man who thought himself perfect. Being flawed and making mistakes is human.. and to hold a over someone's head the threat of what would happen to them in a relationship (IE the termination of that relationship or something unreasonable vs the possible growth opportunity of actual learning and correction) if they are not flawlessly perfect, I have learned, is one of the most damaging things we can do to others we are in relationships with... for the one thing that is certain, is inevitability of eventual failures, big, small and everywhere in between.

There is a tricky bit of business regarding apologizing and the tpe relationship...although I would argue that there doesn't need to be.

There is a shift in the power dynamic when (rightfully or not) the person in power apologizes and asks the submissive for forgiveness. Even if it is momentary. I think perhaps, that shift is felt more keenly by the Dominant than the submissive.

For me... I do not feel that shift at all... compassion is not power, nor does it supply me with any sort of power trip. The apology (and if he chooses it) asking for forgiveness from a Dominant is not some sort of stripping of power or emasculation. It does not place a power over him in my hands... simply because I refuse to see it or use it that way.

All 'the apology' does for me is acknowledges that he made a mistake, and knows that he has done so. It also reassures me that it is less likely that that same mistake will happen again, because he has at least disempowered the possibility of burying it with some sort of disassociation.

There is also, however a distinction to be made between the glib and easy spoken apologies (which usually assure that behavior will continue, and sometimes it's not really a big deal like.... I am sorry.. I know I played video games for 3 days straight and totally ignored you) and the bigger issues which take a much more vast sort of sincerity.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 4:54:36 PM

KnightofMists

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I will put my own thoughts in this post.

I can't imagine how many mistakes I have made or how many times I have cause hurt or pain to those I love. Alandra being with me for alot of years is most definitely been subjected to some of my worse mistakes over the years. However, as good as I have become with years with alandra... dang it anyways... I still have made some mistakes with kyra. They say practice makes prefect... well I am still waiting for the prefect part. But, alas I know the mistakes will occur again... since I am far from prefect.

I find when my girls make a mistake, I tend to be quick to forget about it. They may get my lecture of disappointment or frustration with the choices. But, when it's done... It's done! I find that I expect and want the same. When we make mistakes we want to be validate and acknowledge that the relationship is still strong and loving. I find that the longer it takes to feel forgiven the more I question the strength of the relationship. Maybe this is why I am quick to move past the mistakes that my girls will make from time to time. It's in the moment...and sometimes my temper for their mistake can be high, but it's that moment... and the next it will be past. I don't want to give my girls the feeling that their mistake is more than it was... holding onto the mistakes only would breed insecurity into the relationship. So I very much expect what I give to them.

However, I would add that some things I just can't get past. Violations of Trust that are intentional earns no forgiveness for me. For me a intimate relationship is about becoming completely open and vulnerable to who I am with another. I hold nothing of who I am or what I desire. My thoughts and feelings are shared with them. It is my way of bringing them into me so that they can not only know what I am like... but feel what it is to be me as well. They are made a part of me not just owned by me. I can't see forgiveness when someone so close would use that of me against myself. I have very difficult time with Manipulative Behaviors of some that cares for me. This is likely why I am very direct towards others and even more so to those that are most important in my life.

I do expect my girls to be need time to Vent or express their hurts when I have made a mistake that cause them pain. But, it is a slippery slope in that vent once or twice but holding on to it is not moving past it. If one is holding on to it... then as I said before it starts to breed insecurity into the relationship. However, I completely agree with DesertRat said the following:

quote:

She has to have reasons to believe the mistake will not happen again. Some specific remedy may need to be implemented, and this all has to be worked out between us. Just saying "it won't happen again" is not enough.

I do believe that if one is able to gain the belief and confidence that the mistake will not occur again that it allows one to move past the mistake in a much easy time and avoid planting seeds of insecurity into the relaitonsip.

Thanks for those that have contributed and an advance thanks to those that will.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 16

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 5:14:36 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Also, you could be making a misstake and not even realize it!
That's why communication is so important.
All great replies here!

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 17

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 5:35:11 PM

peta

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/20/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

What I would like contributed from the Submissives side of the coin is this; How do you deal with the mistakes your Dominant makes? What are you expecting from your Dominant at these times and what do you specifically do for your Dominant during these situations. Again, I ask you share it for us Dominants so we can better appreciate what your thoughts and feelings are when we screw up. I also ask that you share it for other submissives so they can learn different ways on approaching what can be a very difficult situation.

I deal with the mistakes the same way I deal with anyone's..with patience and understanding and if needed, in forgiveness.

I would first expect him to acknowledge he made a mistake. I am quite aware that he is human and mistakes do and will happen. In his admitance I find the strength Doms are so known to be.

I would simply be there for Him. When mistakes are made they need to be dealt with and forgiven.

peta

_____________________________

Not trying for the popularity vote

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Post #: 18

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 5:54:46 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Reposted:

Hold themselves accountable and have to face the consequences.

Say I set a rule for a partner to have a bedtime every night. If I don't enforce the rule (not that he would purposefully test me, I don't play that) then:
a) he doesn't get a good nights sleep
b) he loses some measure of faith and security in the discipline I set
c) I have to re-evaluate my processes and put even more effort towards changing behavior AND make more time to reinforce the trust and stability

Anyone who says the dom has the easy end because they just get to make orders and hand out punishments is dealing with a dom who isn't really taking themselves seriously.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_255870/mpage_1/key_punishes%252Cdom/tm.htm#255875
Is there ever a case where a dom punishes himself?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_316886/mpage_1/key_master%2Cmistakes/tm.htm
Dominant Accountability

http://www.collarchat.com/m_156881/mpage_1/key_master%2Cmistakes/tm.htm
So whose responsibility is it?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 19

RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/22/2006 11:22:52 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

What I would like contributed from the Submissives side of the coin is this; How do you deal with the mistakes your Dominant makes? What are you expecting from your Dominant at these times and what do you specifically do for your Dominant during these situations. Again, I ask you share it for us Dominants so we can better appreciate what your thoughts and feelings are when we screw up. I also ask that you share it for other submissives so they can learn different ways on approaching what can be a very difficult situation.

I had a situation arise in a previous D/s relationship. It was a relatively new relationsip when it happened. The dominant and I had discussed punishment; we both agreed it was serious shit and should not be taken lightly. He expected me to be prompt, and that is usually not a problem for me. I drove to his house and encountered heavy traffic and construction. I sat on the bridge for 20 minutes and so I was late. I walked in his house and before I could say a word, he ordered me into punishment position and caned me for my tardiness. It was not an extreme punishment by any means, but I was upset. I did not express my feelings at the time because I was too overwhelmed; besides, whining 'that's not fair!' didn't seem like the properly respectful approach.
We moved on to play and it was all good. During after care I asked him if we could discuss what happened and he allowed it. I used the approach that I was confused by the punishment because he didn't ask why I was late, and since it wasn't deliberate on my part, I told him that I felt wronged. I also talked about our previous discussion regarding punishment, and that I had understood I would not be punished for honest mistakes. He asked me why I hadn't spoken at the time, and it was because I wasnt sure that would be acceptable. He did say that obviously he had not thought it through. He didn't exactly apologize, but accepted responsibility for making a less than optimum choice. I was satisfied with the results of our discussion. It was never a problem after that, but I've often wondered if I should have respectfully requested that he hear me out before accepting the punishment. Did I set him up, did I compound his error by not speaking until the deed was done?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 20

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