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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 8:16:06 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		The two are not opposed views.. I can agree with the percieved errors which Israel makes. I can also understand their fear ad touchiness. I simply have close friendship ties to many jewish people, been there seen things from their perspective.My bias is a personal one and one more from the heart. I see nothing dishonourable in this affiliation and respect for Israelal. I'm loyal to Australia where I was born but I an anti 90% of what happening here too.

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(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 9:08:18 AM   
cr0ckdile


Posts: 63
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

If the Arabs disarmed there would be peace. If Israel disarmed they would be destroyed.


quote:

nope.......if the arabs disarmed Israel would be the size of canada by now, judging by their track record.


You conviniently forget that Israel offered to return the West Bank to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt after those territories were conquered in the '67 war in exchange for peace, both of those nations refused peace and to accept the return of the territories which were conquered.  Jordan, which has its own Palestinian problem, didn't wan't to accept the West Bank and refused peace.  Furthermore, Israel twice returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, the second time for a lasting peace.  Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 despite ongoing rocket attacks, and from Gaza in 2006.  Lastly, I've mentioned this before, Israel uses far more restraint than other nations in times of war, risking the lives of its ground forces rather than bombarding from safe distances and from the air.  Russia in Chechnya, the U.S.A. in Iraq, the Europeans in Yugoslavia, and the Arabs amongst themselves, do not use as much restraint as Israel does.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 9:23:49 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"The two are not opposed views.. I can agree with the percieved errors which Israel makes. I can also understand their fear ad touchiness. I simply have close friendship ties to many jewish people, been there seen things from their perspective.My bias is a personal one and one more from the heart. I see nothing dishonourable in this affiliation and respect for Israelal. I'm loyal to Australia where I was born but I an anti 90% of what happening here too."

thank you for the clarification Iron Bear....much appreciated.


(in reply to cr0ckdile)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 9:28:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
"I heard this statement made by one of the TV talking heads; "If the Arabs disarmed there would be peace. If Israel disarmed they would be destroyed." Do you think this is an accurate portrayal of the situation?"

ORIGINAL: philosophy
nope.......if the arabs disarmed Israel would be the size of canada by now, judging by their track record.


philosphy,
A peaceful territory the size of Canada in the middle east is not desirable? At least you don't deny the concept of truth behind the statement. There are a great number of Muslims and Arabs currently living in Israel that give substance to the postulated statement.

What about the other side of the same statement? Do you agree or disagree that if Israel disarmed they would be assuring their own destruction?

I'm not an Israeli apologist or supporter, but living in peace should be a common goal. I don't know how Israel could become the size of Canada, but based upon historical precedent the people of Israel have a knack for turning an inhospitable region into a hospitable one. A blooming desert the size of Canada would be good for the all people in the region.

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 11:04:56 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile

quote:

If the Arabs disarmed there would be peace. If Israel disarmed they would be destroyed.


quote:

nope.......if the arabs disarmed Israel would be the size of canada by now, judging by their track record.


You conviniently forget that Israel offered to return the West Bank to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt after those territories were conquered in the '67 war in exchange for peace, both of those nations refused peace and to accept the return of the territories which were conquered.  Jordan, which has its own Palestinian problem, didn't wan't to accept the West Bank and refused peace.  Furthermore, Israel twice returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, the second time for a lasting peace.  Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 despite ongoing rocket attacks, and from Gaza in 2006.  Lastly, I've mentioned this before, Israel uses far more restraint than other nations in times of war, risking the lives of its ground forces rather than bombarding from safe distances and from the air.  Russia in Chechnya, the U.S.A. in Iraq, the Europeans in Yugoslavia, and the Arabs amongst themselves, do not use as much restraint as Israel does.


Europeans in Yugoslavia? You mean the component parts of Yugoslavia, Croats, Serbs etc. Civil wars are known to be a lot more bloody.  I have heavily criticized Russia's actions in Chechnya for using the so called war on terror to their own ends and should get over their sense of humiliation of having lost their empire and give the Chechens their independence. The USA has a reputation for using overwhelming force to get its objectives and I criticized the US over Fuluja where they got rid of the terrorists and the city in the process too. I have criticized Blair's sychophantic and uncritical alliance with Bush and the debacle that is Iraq. The war on terror has become too much of a convenience to meter out unrestrained force for other ends.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/25/2006 11:05:45 AM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 11:54:36 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I'm not an Israeli apologist or supporter, but living in peace should be a common goal. I don't know how Israel could become the size of Canada, but based upon historical precedent the people of Israel have a knack for turning an inhospitable region into a hospitable one. A blooming desert the size of Canada would be good for the all people in the region.


This is the most intelligent thing said in this entire thread, in my opinion.
 
The world has been putting bandaids on this issue for a very long time. At some point we need to accept reality and understand that there isn't going to be a peaceful resolution to this ... there is only going to be a winner that wins, and a loser that accepts the dictates of the winner.
 
In the long term, it would probably save tens of thousands of lives.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 12:36:19 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I think you underestimate the resolve of the Arabs. They have no intention of going away without what they perceive to be justice, they have been around for 60 years. If you read between the lines the Arab leaders have been saying, they need something to quel the anger on their streets. This conflict will be going on in another 60 years if no statesmen appears on the scene with a vision. Looking at the power broker and the USA is the only one, Bush is out of his depth. He is letting Israel do what it wants and has already lost the battle of the hearts and minds on the streets of Beirut, the Lebanese are getting behind Hezbollah and appear to have stopped seeing them as the cause of their plight but their heroes for standing up to the USA and what they see as their stooge Israel. The Iraqi Prime Minister has said this conflict is going to make the situation on the streets of Iraq worse. ie more dead American and British soldiers.

Imatah Rabinovich the ex-Israeli ambassador to the USA has said on the BBC that Israel is fighting a war by poxy for the USA because Hezzbollah are seen in Washington as fighting a war by proxy on behalf of Syria and Iran. That has already done the rounds on Al-jeezra and is being talked about on the streets of Iraq. The ordinary Arabs have been looking for heroes and now they have found them, thanks to Israel and the USA and its poodle Britain. How long will it be before Hezzbollah have more credibility than friendly Arab governments? Unless this conflict is stopped it isn't going to stay in the middle east. Get ready for the $20 per gallon gas. 

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/25/2006 12:37:22 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 1:18:17 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Over the short span of history, there is a long, long list of ultra-nationalists, that "won't go away" ... that did exactly that, when confronted with the price of defiance.
 
I'm not a war monger, but peaceful solutions that offer no actual peace, are only bringing us more death and destruction.
 
I'm rarely a supporter of President Bush, primarily because of domestic issues ... but in this instance, I not only think we should let Israel crush these terrorists, I think if they don't have the power to finish the job, then we should step in and help.
 
That may be the wrong thing to do ... but what do we have to lose? What we have been doing for the last sixty years is obviously not working, and is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 1:21:49 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I meant to say, not that the Arabs won't go away but they have no where to go. (My excuse and afternoon drink on the river bank).

However, your idea of a final solution is not the first time that solution has been proposed as a solution to a perceived problem.

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 1:30:47 PM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't know if it's a solution. It may be a bad move. It may be a great move.
 
Isn't there some saying about insanity being defined as doing the same thing again and again, and expecting different outcome? I think it's time to try something else, if we want a different outcome.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 1:30:49 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I meant to say, not that the Arabs won't go away but they have no where to go. (My excuse and afternoon drink on the river bank).


MC,
They, the "Palestinians" didn't have to go anywhere. Many did, some didn't, when Egypt and the other Arab states promised them back in 1947 and subsequently in 1968 that they should leave the area for a while while they destroyed Israel. When it didn't happen "Palestinians" were created. They didn't exist prior.

I respect your honesty and opinion even considering your "afternoon drink on the river bank". What do you think would happen if Israel disarmed? Would there be peaceful coexistence? So far, no one has indicated that would happen. To me, the obvious negative answer to that question generates a positive response to the question originally posed by this thread.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 1:38:42 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		My best friend's father and his neighbours were ordered out of their homes at gunpoint and forced to walk to Jordon, or at least to the other side of the Jordon river. Though I do accept many left, but many were expelled forceably. This is recorded and the names of the Jewish Brigades involved are well known.

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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 2:14:52 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

My best friend's father and his neighbours were ordered out of their homes at gunpoint and forced to walk to Jordon, or at least to the other side of the Jordon river. Though I do accept many left, but many were expelled forceably. This is recorded and the names of the Jewish Brigades involved are well known.


Making you, with your experience all the better qualified to respond to the question. Nothing can change what has occurred on both sides, from 1947 to July 25th 2006. On July 26th Israel disarms. What happens? Would there be peaceful coexistence? Do you agree with 'philosophy' that the consequence of Arab disarmament would be peace, but with Israeli expansion?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 2:45:27 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

My best friend's father and his neighbours were ordered out of their homes at gunpoint and forced to walk to Jordon, or at least to the other side of the Jordon river. Though I do accept many left, but many were expelled forceably. This is recorded and the names of the Jewish Brigades involved are well known.


Making you, with your experience all the better qualified to respond to the question. Nothing can change what has occurred on both sides, from 1947 to July 25th 2006. On July 26th Israel disarms. What happens? Would there be peaceful coexistence? Do you agree with 'philosophy' that the consequence of Arab disarmament would be peace, but with Israeli expansion?


My friend's family were lucky enough to have contacts and got a British passport and got out, ending up in Canada (though he lives in Amsterdam now) but they have family and friends still on the west bank who I have met on several occasions, some here and some in Israel. They want peace and to be able to get on with their lives and have nothing to do with the Israelis, they don't trust Israel, they say they have suffered too much at their hands ever to trust them. They don't like the Palestinian authority either but they prefer that to what they see as a far worse regime of Israel. Basically they feel trapped and without options, which according to them is the reason for the terrorism, young men without a future. They would prefer an international force to defend them but don't see that ever being allowed to happen. But they do believe there can be peace with the right people in charge (there in lies the problem) because they don't want another generation growing up in what they see as a prison camp.

They certainly believe that Israel wants to anex the west bank permamently and kick them out. That is one of the reasons my friends uncle never left. He's says the Israelis have stolen enough from them. Though he is dead now.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/25/2006 2:49:15 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 3:38:16 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What do you think would happen if Israel disarmed? Would there be peaceful coexistence? So far, no one has indicated that would happen. To me, the obvious negative answer to that question generates a positive response to the question originally posed by this thread.


Israeli blood would flow into the sea. And far too many Arabs would dance a jig.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 3:46:00 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What do you think would happen if Israel disarmed? Would there be peaceful coexistence? So far, no one has indicated that would happen. To me, the obvious negative answer to that question generates a positive response to the question originally posed by this thread.


Israeli blood would flow into the sea. And far too many Arabs would dance a jig.


That's what the Israelis do when Arab blood flows.

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Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 4:03:17 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

On July 26th Israel disarms. What happens? Would there be peaceful coexistence? Do you agree with 'philosophy' that the consequence of Arab disarmament would be peace, but with Israeli expansion?


I missed this first time around. Too much hate and too many radicals want to get even to simply imagine a garden of Eden on July 26th. The Palestinians would have to keep their radicals in check which has been the problem this time around, the radicals are better armed than the Palestinian police. I doubt they could coexist but I think they want peace enough to be able to live as neighbours and have nothing to do with each other.

My friend's father created a successful business in Canada but even when he was dying of cancer, he still hated the Israelis because of what happened, he never got past the humiliation. He wasn't a muslim, he was a Christian so there is no fundement religion playing in his mind. How the Palestinians feel is that they have been humiliated constantly for more or less 60 years, that is an obsacle they have to get over. Peace with justice I think is what they want. I'm European so I can't get my head into this humilation thing which I get the feeling is cultural.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/25/2006 4:12:10 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 4:45:19 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		As for hate. My ex-father in law would never go or travel through Germany because of what happened in the German occupation of Holland, even though he acknowledged modern Germany is not the old Germany but then he had a significant amount of Jewish blood in him though he was not Jewish himself, he had enough to be considered Jewish by the Germans. I guess it's all down to experience and you can't really judge unless you have been there. Some people find it easier to forgive than others or at least bury the experience from sight somewhat. 

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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 6:08:05 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What do you think would happen if Israel disarmed? Would there be peaceful coexistence? So far, no one has indicated that would happen. To me, the obvious negative answer to that question generates a positive response to the question originally posed by this thread.


Israeli blood would flow into the sea. And far too many Arabs would dance a jig.


That's what the Israelis do when Arab blood flows.


I'm sure some do; but........... I can't get the images of many, many Arabs dancing, laughing, and cheering after 9/11. If they did that after what happened to America, I can only guess it's multiplied greatly whenever Israeli deaths happen.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/25/2006 11:04:37 PM   
Lilmissbossy


Posts: 81
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I'm not an Israeli apologist or supporter, but living in peace should be a common goal. I don't know how Israel could become the size of Canada, but based upon historical precedent the people of Israel have a knack for turning an inhospitable region into a hospitable one. A blooming desert the size of Canada would be good for the all people in the region.


This is the most intelligent thing said in this entire thread, in my opinion.
 
The world has been putting bandaids on this issue for a very long time. At some point we need to accept reality and understand that there isn't going to be a peaceful resolution to this ... there is only going to be a winner that wins, and a loser that accepts the dictates of the winner.
 
In the long term, it would probably save tens of thousands of lives.


what a brilliant idea.  i bet the people in lebanon tonight who are evacuating their homes (if the roads havent been already been destroyed) are just so grateful that israel are helping them out in their future by crippling the nation to its knees.

i get it now.  the lebanese need to be grateful.

in fact, it'll be a tragedy if they dont write a letter of thanks to israel when its all over.  at least, those who get to stay alive anyway.

this sarcasm was brought to you by 'bright ideas, inc.'

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 200
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