RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this?

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Lilmissbossy -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/25/2006 11:31:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level I'm sure some do; but........... I can't get the images of many, many Arabs dancing, laughing, and cheering after 9/11. If they did that after what happened to America, I can only guess it's multiplied greatly whenever Israeli deaths happen. I think this was almost universally proven to be a fake. I remember a documentary in the uk that said the footage of the arabs celebrating was used in news stories long before 9/11 even happened. Marcio A.V. Carvalho of the state university of Campinas in Brazil reported that he and his colleagues had compared this tape with one from 1991 showing Palestinian cheering, and found them to be identical. much of the footage used even came from wedding celebrations, not 9/11 attacks. which makes you wonder who made the decision to include it in 9/11 reports. and why.

philosophy -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 2:22:16 AM)
"Do you agree with 'philosophy' that the consequence of Arab disarmament would be peace, but with Israeli expansion?" damn, you leave the board for a few hours and this happens.....lol apologies if i gave the impression that it would be a peaceful expansion. Israel's recent efforts in Lebanon show how peacefully they expand. Furthermore is the reason some people don't have a problem with a 'greater Israel' because that country is perceived as more West-like than its neighbours? If so, then we have a new problem to discuss.......one that may touch on racism but i don't think ought to stay there......may i recommend the book 'Jingo' by Terry Pratchett.....and a particular scene with Nobby Nobbs and Sergeant Colon regarding what the Klatchians invented. Peace is a wonderful thing, but an unjust peace will not hold. Israel does not have the right to take other people's countries.

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 2:24:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level I'm sure some do; but........... I can't get the images of many, many Arabs dancing, laughing, and cheering after 9/11. If they did that after what happened to America, I can only guess it's multiplied greatly whenever Israeli deaths happen. What I've been trying to say and I've been probably losing what I've been trying to say in the heat of the debate. This situation has taken 60 years to get where it is today. The west has not treated the Arabs honestly and have supported the dictators that have oppressed the ordinary people so to have access to their oil. The radicalisation of sections of the Arab world was a process in which no one has clean hands and I'm not exempting sections of the Arab body politick looking for the half chance. However, we can carry on this process that only creates hate and wait for the next conflict and each conflict produces a fire that has the chance to burn out of control. Or we can start a process of trying to regain some trust and that requires a certain amount of integrity which the west has been lacking. It is the west that are masters in this. No Arab country has the power to invade any western country but the west can interfer with Arab states at will and does. It is the humiliation of the west using their corrupt governments like puppets that radicalizes Arabs on the streets and creates a situation that breeds extremists. Terrorists are not produced in a vacuum. When the west suffers from radical Arab terrorism and simply dismisses it as that is what Arabs are like, it is a convenience and totally ignores the west's part in creating that terrorism. The war on terrorism will be a self fullfilling and esculating process if the genuine grievances of the general Arab population are not recognised and dealt with. That is not to say that the Arabs are guiltless and don't need to take a honest look at themselves but the west has to take a honest look at it self too. One of the few things Tony Blair said that was true though he seems to have forgotten he has said it now. That is, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict settled in a just manner where no one feels humiliated and all living with self respect, is the key to solving the whole middle east problem including Iraq. Host populations only support terrorism out of despair. Violent attacks only increase resolve and support for terrorism. Look at Lebanon as a case in point. In the two weeks of Israeli bombardment Hezbollah are said to be gaining support on the streets where before this conflict large sections of the Lebanese population saw them as a problem. The western support for Israel's idea that it will destroy Hezbollah is not working out. Yes, they can militarily destroy this generation of Hezzbollah but in the process they are creating the next generation (maybe under a different name) and putting the idea into the heads of many sections of the Arab public that the only people that are trying to protect and really care, are the terrorists. If one is to believe the reports, many people getting the wrath of the Israeli offensive are asking where are the Arabs (states), they don't care about us. (ie Hezzbollah does by proxy of Syria and Iran) Wars that have lasting peace are won by winning over the general population. The west seems to be doing all in its power to alienate the Arab population. As for cheering the deaths of innocent people. There are enough cheerleaders on CM when it comes to the deaths of people they disagree with. To me that is just ignorance and a lack of imagination and as much the part of the problem because they allow themselves to be manipulated by politicians that have base interests and not the interests of their citizens in mind.

Level -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 4:03:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy quote: ORIGINAL: Level I'm sure some do; but........... I can't get the images of many, many Arabs dancing, laughing, and cheering after 9/11. If they did that after what happened to America, I can only guess it's multiplied greatly whenever Israeli deaths happen. I think this was almost universally proven to be a fake. I remember a documentary in the uk that said the footage of the arabs celebrating was used in news stories long before 9/11 even happened. Marcio A.V. Carvalho of the state university of Campinas in Brazil reported that he and his colleagues had compared this tape with one from 1991 showing Palestinian cheering, and found them to be identical. much of the footage used even came from wedding celebrations, not 9/11 attacks. which makes you wonder who made the decision to include it in 9/11 reports. and why. At the very least, not all of this was faked. I remember one instance where Egyptian university students being interviewed spoke about how we "deserved it" and were laughing.

Level -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 4:09:15 AM)
Meatcleaver, I wish they could find a just manner, where no one felt humiliated, and end all this. There are those on both sides that don't want that, they're hateful, but one difference, I think, is that the Israelis took their extremists by the scruff of the neck and moved them, while the Arabs have not (whether it was a matter of being unwilling, or unable, I don't know). Israel will not give up Golan, nor most of the West Bank in our lifetime. They should give up an equal amount of land in the south, linked to Gaza, for the Palestinians to make a nation, and help them get an infrastructure up and running, and the Palestinians should give up the desire for the destruction of Israel and the "right of return". This is the only was I can see this happening, this peace.

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 4:24:49 AM)
I'm about running on empty after several days of this thread and going to give up on it but for the record of those that see criticism of Israel as wanting the destruction of Israel and wanting to see Jews killed. I believe in the right of Israel to exist and I no more want to see Jews killed as Arabs or Brits or anyone else. I think that the belief that war can solve a problem is simplistic and naive and history shows it very rarely works unless you totally annihilate your enemy. If Germany and Japan were left as wastelands after WWII we would still have a problem today but there was the foresight in Washington that the only way to prevent another problem further down the road was to create positive, forward thinking and productive societies. In this conflict in regard to the Palestinians who like the Germans and Japanese lost everything, even though they were guilty of nothing, that has not been the case. If the money and effort was put into constructing a positive forward looking and productive Palestinain state rather than insisting on demonizing them, this conflict would have been over long ago.

Level -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 4:40:30 AM)
Well, I can agree with you on the "running on empty" part [;)]. It's run its course with me too, I think. At least for awhile. Have a good day. PS to add: speaking only for me, I realize not everyone showing support for the Palestinians wants Israel destroyed.

caitlyn -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 5:26:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy this sarcasm was brought to you by 'bright ideas, inc.' Actually it was brought to us by "No Ideas Inc.", which is of course what we have on this board ... a very small group willing too actually discuss these issues with potential solutions, and a larger group that only seems willing to trash everything that is done, said, or suggested, without ever offering any solutions of their own. There are about five people on this board, to whom you you just want to ask ... "Hey, since you are so fucking smart, why don't you tell all of us morons what your solution to the problem is?"[;)]

philosophy -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 6:36:31 AM)
"Actually it was brought to us by "No Ideas Inc.", which is of course what we have on this board ... " i assume you refer to those who disagree with your stance on this. For my own part i try to respect those with different ideas (although i admit to occasional lapses in the face of wilful stupidity or culpable ignorance) rather than denigrate them. For Israel to simply obey international law, and to expect other countries to condemn them if they don't is not evidence of 'no ideas'. America, for its own domestic reasons, has been running cover for Israel for too long. Instead of 'my ally, right or wrong', i wish America would simply require Israel to comply with international law. Now there's an idea that hasn't been tried yet. Tell them America will freeze their arms exports until they comply, that'd do the trick.

Lilmissbossy -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 7:28:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn quote: ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy this sarcasm was brought to you by 'bright ideas, inc.' Actually it was brought to us by "No Ideas Inc.", which is of course what we have on this board ... a very small group willing too actually discuss these issues with potential solutions, and a larger group that only seems willing to trash everything that is done, said, or suggested, without ever offering any solutions of their own. There are about five people on this board, to whom you you just want to ask ... "Hey, since you are so fucking smart, why don't you tell all of us morons what your solution to the problem is?"[;)] your solution was "let israel win, let israel dictate to everyone else how to live, in the long run they'll be happier anyway" i bet al qaeda think the same way about the uk and the us and how we'd be happier if we lived the way they want us to. my solution would be for all sides to release hostages, pull back to what is currently defined as their own borders, draw up a peace plan, for the lebanese to denounce and outlaw hezbollah, for israel to seize no more land, for hezbollah to stop firing rockets into northern israel, for emergency aid to be allowed to attend to those in lebanon affected by the attacks and for outside forces to stop giving military aid to both parties as quickly as possible. all very obvious i know but what road to peace has never been obvious?

Alumbrado -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 7:41:50 AM)
Well, one method for getting to a workable solution is to poke holes in obvious ones...which is what leads to so much defensiveness, I suspect.

caitlyn -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 7:43:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy "Actually it was brought to us by "No Ideas Inc.", which is of course what we have on this board ... " i assume you refer to those who disagree with your stance on this. For my own part i try to respect those with different ideas (although i admit to occasional lapses in the face of wilful stupidity or culpable ignorance) rather than denigrate them. For Israel to simply obey international law, and to expect other countries to condemn them if they don't is not evidence of 'no ideas'. America, for its own domestic reasons, has been running cover for Israel for too long. Instead of 'my ally, right or wrong', i wish America would simply require Israel to comply with international law. Now there's an idea that hasn't been tried yet. Tell them America will freeze their arms exports until they comply, that'd do the trick. I have no problem with those that don't agree with me, and never have. Look at Mercnbeth and Popeye. I rarely agree with either of them, but completely respect their position, because they offer useful, working alternatives to problems. Even if I don't agree with their solutions, at least they are giving one that has some merit. There are several posters here that never offer anything useful or working, as a solution to problems. You are one of them, in my opinion. Your "solution" above, is that one party should capitulate. Well, I can respect that as a position, but not a working solution. You ignore half the problem. How about this ... fill in the blank: The United States should force Israel to stop the violence (which everyone wants) and we will make the terrorist stop committing acts of terror by (insert your solution here). Israel will stop immediately, and we will change the thinking of the people that have pledged to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth by (insert your solution here). Peace ... cc P.S. By the way ... never did get your apology for taking a quote made by someone else and using it to call me a racist. Perhaps I missed it. [;)]

caitlyn -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 7:51:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy your solution was "let israel win, let israel dictate to everyone else how to live, in the long run they'll be happier anyway" <<clip>> my solution would be for all sides to release hostages, pull back to what is currently defined as their own borders, draw up a peace plan, for the lebanese to denounce and outlaw hezbollah, for israel to seize no more land, for hezbollah to stop firing rockets into northern israel, for emergency aid to be allowed to attend to those in lebanon affected by the attacks and for outside forces to stop giving military aid to both parties as quickly as possible. all very obvious i know but what road to peace has never been obvious? My plan was certainly not to let Israel win. My plan was the let the winner win. This fight has been going on, and on, and on. Perhaps it's time to let if play out. That might be a bad plan ... but at least it's not the same plan that has never worked, or a list of happy results, without a plan to get any of these results. Nor was it an endless blame game that nobody will ever win ... it's Irsaels fault, it's Islam's fault, it's America's fault ... who fucking cares at this point? It is, what it is ... and finding fault isn't going to solve a thing.

philosophy -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 7:55:27 AM)
"There are several posters here that never offer anything useful or working as a solution to problems. You are one of them, in my opinion." that points to some seriously selective reading on your part. "Your "solution" above, is that one party should capitulate. Well, I can respect that as a position, but not a working solution. You ignore half the problem." actually, that also betrays a misreading of what i have posted. The key issue here is legality. Hezbollah act outside the law, true.....and need to be countered. i don't deny this. However, what i have said time and time again is that in the face of this Israel does not have the right to act as it has done in recent weeks. i asked a question some time ago that has not been answered at all. If you support Israels 'right' to bomb Lebanon, i assume you'd have supported the British government in bombing Dublin while the IRA were bombing us. Clearly that would have been insane, just as Israel's actions in recent weeks has been insane. Today we have the news that Israeli armed forces were asked ten times by the UN not to bomb their observers, and yet now there are 4 UN inspectors dead. And you see these people as the good guys? The ones above censure? "By the way ... never did get your apology for taking a quote made by someone else and using it to call me a racist. Perhaps I missed it." ...and when did i call you, personally, a racist?

caitlyn -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 8:27:36 AM)
I didn't say I saw Israel as the good guys. If you accuse me of selective reading ... that's fine. You should look at yourself as rebutting opinions that nobody ever gave. I don't see a good guy. I don't support either party in this. I think they are both partly in the right, and both partly in the wrong. The only thing I support is not doing the same fucking thing we have been doing for years, and years, and years, and expecting a different outcome. As far as I'm concerned, disarming the whole region by military force, would be better than what we have now. That probably wouldn't stop the violence, but at least they would go back to killing each other with rocks.

MasterKalif -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 8:44:59 AM)
I dont understand why average Americans are so pro-Israeli to the point that I think they are double citizens...they support Israel's bullish and bombing of another country back to the stone age, and then they wonder "why do they hate us so much over there"....really. I am not anti-Israel insofar as I think they have done wonderful things with their country, irrigation of a desert is a model that should be emulated worldwide (and has already in some countries) as well as their technological advancement which was carried out by stealing western secrets, or by copying them...surely many of you dont believe the Kfir planes were "invented" from the ground up? or the nuclear power they posses? In any case, nothing can justify the sad invasion and blatant disregards for human rights to Lebanon....I wonder if many people here would cheer and agree if China bombed Taiwan into submission because of a "perceived threat" or think it was right for Argentina's dictatorship to take back the Falkland Islands by force in 1982 from Britain.... about solutions: we all know what has to be done. Bush and the US administrations after him have to "put their pants on" as they say in my country, and act with decision. That means they have to stop its lackey, Israel from doing whatever it wants....then it has to force Israel into a complete unconditional ceasefire, then meet with Arab leaders in Lebanon, push for their army and government to act in South Lebanon to stop Hizbullah, have talks with Syria and Iran to avoid interference, and force BOTH sides to comply with a US-peace proposal. This has to be a serious proposal for both sides. UN forces have then to enter southern Lebanon, and the world as well as Israel should pay back to reconstruct that beautiful country of Lebanon. On the other pressing conflict regarding the Palestinian people, the US needs to do the same, and force Israel to comply with ALL UN resolutions, as well as to allow a Palestinian state, unified in one territory (not in strips separated by vast swathes of Israeli territory), and force the new Palestinian Authority to give it full control of the country, and stop any support of radical groups. This will be hard but not impossible if there is trust, particularly in the power of carrying out by the negotiator, in this case the US. If the US government or its people find this to tough a blance to play, then it should wisely stay out of the region altogether supporting neither side. I read people talk of regime change in Iran, but we all know that will be another disaster as the adventure in Iraq with no benefit for anyone. The US flaked in supporting the Shah's enlightened regime, and now it is too late to bring it back, or to bring back an even worse semblance of sham democracy, Iraqi-style. will this be able to happen? It can happen, but peace takes years to build, like a strong relationship....it does not happen overnight. Will the US ever have the guts to do what it needs to do? unfortunately I think not as long as the Jewish lobby has the power it wields internally through Congress and the media.

Lilmissbossy -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 8:58:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Well, one method for getting to a workable solution is to poke holes in obvious ones...which is what leads to so much defensiveness, I suspect. so what stopped you, socrates

caitlyn -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 9:17:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif about solutions: we all know what has to be done. Bush and the US administrations after him have to "put their pants on" as they say in my country, and act with decision. That means they have to stop its lackey, Israel from doing whatever it wants....then it has to force Israel into a complete unconditional ceasefire, then meet with Arab leaders in Lebanon, push for their army and government to act in South Lebanon to stop Hizbullah, have talks with Syria and Iran to avoid interference, and force BOTH sides to comply with a US-peace proposal. This has to be a serious proposal for both sides. UN forces have then to enter southern Lebanon, and the world as well as Israel should pay back to reconstruct that beautiful country of Lebanon. Assuming these could pull these off, these would be good solutions. Which Arab leaders would you suppose we could meet with, that would have the will, desire and power to do something about terrorsts? If Syria and Iran wanted to do something about terrorists, wouldn't they have done it before Israel ever invaded? Don't most experts feel that Syrian and Iran are actually bank-rolling these terrorists? What would make them decide to not only stop supporting them, but use power in order to stop them? These are not meant to be sarcastic question ... they are serious ones. Does the army in Lebanon, have the power to stop these terrorists? If they could do that, wouldn't they have done it already? Which UN forces are you speaking of. From what I've read, nobody really wants to send soldiers over there. That leaves the United States. Are you suggesting the United States sends soldiers over there? Who else would it be? Do you really think sending American soldiers to Lebanon, given all the bad blood on both sides, will accomplish anything? Again, these are not meant to be sarcastic questions. They are meant to be serious ones. I agree that financial help should be forthcoming to help rebuild Lebanon. I think it should come from all the significant players in this conflict. I don't know about the involvement of the world, but certainly Syria, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and Israel should contribute to the effort. You could drag the United States into that mix because they supported Israel, but that would open the door to asking the assorted states of the old Soviet Union to chip in, as they once supported those that opposed Israel. That might prove problematic. It might be better to just let the nations of the region pay for the rebuild. They could use the money they would no longer have to spend on military hardware. I enjoyed your post ... thanks. [:D]

Alumbrado -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 9:37:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Well, one method for getting to a workable solution is to poke holes in obvious ones...which is what leads to so much defensiveness, I suspect. so what stopped you, socrates Well, you certainly haven't been paying much attention, have you?

Moloch -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/26/2006 9:42:13 AM)
quote: I think this was almost universally proven to be a fake. I remember a documentary in the uk that said the footage of the arabs celebrating was used in news stories long before 9/11 even happened. Marcio A.V. Carvalho of the state university of Campinas in Brazil reported that he and his colleagues had compared this tape with one from 1991 showing Palestinian cheering, and found them to be identical. much of the footage used even came from wedding celebrations, not 9/11 attacks. which makes you wonder who made the decision to include it in 9/11 reports. and why. With all due respect BULLSHIT!!! I seen them cheer and chant here in Lancaster NY, by freinds seen them cheer too. Many people in WNY seen them cheer.

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