Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? Page: <<   < prev  13 14 [15] 16 17   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 11:48:13 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Witty but meaningless in the situation but Israel isn't protecting its civilians, its killing Lebanese civilians and failing to have much of an impact on Hezzbollah. While Israel still has an overwhelming power in the region as long as the US tax payer subsidizes each Israeli citizen to the tune of $23,000 per year, what happens when the US taxpayer says enough is enough?

The balance of power is slowly changing in the region, it is in Israel's interest for future security to have a comprehensve peace settlement rather than have its army viewed by most of the world as terrorists in uniform.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/31/2006 11:49:03 AM >

(in reply to bluepuppy)
Profile   Post #: 281
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 12:10:28 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		You'll need to click on the link at the end of the quote to see the pictures. They are not graphic or gruesome, but they show the cause of the graphic and gruesome retaliation.

Launching Stalin era rockets isn't a threat to the State of Israel. It is a threat to Israeli citizens. Hundreds if not thousands were launched prior to this latest episode. Only after the stakes were raised with the kidnapping of 2 soldiers did Israel use its forces in strength. Once they did they decided to do it so they wouldn't have to do it again in another 6 months.

Hezbollah, unlike the IRA, do not represent even a significant minority of the citizens of Lebanon. They are not seeking autonomy or any political agenda except the extermination of Israel. In their stated policy there can not be any other compromised "peace". They are an occupying army in a county that does not have the desires or the military strength to remove them.

For the defenders of the Muslim side, one question. It's a well know fact, that from Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton through George I and George II; the PLO received money from the US. Other than buying military hardware, and in the case of Arafat setting up his wife and family in a French villa, has any of the money ever been used for a school, hospital, or any infrastructure?

quote:

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.
Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.
The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.
Source: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 282
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 12:24:37 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The only way to get peace in the region is for enemies to talk to each other, without talks you get war.  Hezzbollah are using classic guerilla warfare to good affect. If the US thinks that Hezzbollah should fight out in the open like a conventional army, perhaps the US should arm them like they do Israel and fight like a conventional army. When Israel was created it was created using terrorism and many of its leaders have been terrorists/freedomfighters. The west can't get away from  this hypocrisy.

Again, if enemies don't talk, you don't get peace. Egypt once called for the destruction of Israel and now it has diplomatic relations so its nonsense to say there can be no peace while one calls for the destruction of the other. Israel isn't just calling for the destruction of Hezzbollah, it is actually destroying Lebanon!

The US's backing of Israel's right to destroy lebanon and its refusal to talk to Syria and Iran is as much an obstacle to peace as Syria and Iran backing Hezzbollah. Are the American's the only people that can't see that?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 12:59:47 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		If you were a citizen of Lebanon right now, would you believe that Israel was good and Hezbollah bad?  I think the conversion rate to Hezbollah's "cause" must be equal if not greater than inhabitants of Northern Israel's support for the IDF.

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 1:08:38 PM   
fosterpiti


Posts: 6
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline 		The terrorists in the world have a new tactic. They attack from another countries soil, and let their target (this time Israel, often us) take diplomatic heat for retailiating. If you let a roomate move in, and he started sninping from your window at your neighbors, would you be surprised and upset when SWAT kicked in your door? You say they are not protecting their citizens, but over 100 rockets a day fall on Irsrael. The idea the arabs mostly have for peace, is the Israelis stand quietly still while they are all killed! Hezbollah, Hamas, and many other entities in the regeion have sworn to WIPE ISRAEL OUT! Can you negotiate in good faith with someone with that mindset? 

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 1:09:37 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

The only way to get peace in the region is for enemies to talk to each other, without talks you get war. 


I recall a "peace" announced at the White House a couple of administrations ago. It begs the question, where did the money go? Why pay more money to a people who only used it to purchase weapons?

quote:

If the US thinks that Hezzbollah should fight out in the open like a conventional army, perhaps the US should arm them like they do Israel and fight like a conventional army.


The US? I don't know of any US activity in the region. Again, based upon previous experience and results from prior disbursements to Hezzbollah and the PLO; there is no expectation of any change of attitude. Remember, one of the key problems the Israeli army is facing is that the last time they left the region they did not destroy the bunkers they used. They abandoned the area and released it to Lebanon. Today you are seeing the result of expecting peace from a people who don't have peace as a goal.

Hezzbollah is using Lebanon and it citizens as a shield. Lebanon and their citizens are paying a price for allowing Hezzbollah free reign. Unlike the US, Israel is very pragmatic in dealing with their enemies. They believe and react to people saying that their goal is the destruction of them as a people. That is the Hezzbollah, and the radical Muslim goal. They gave up land this is what happened. I doubt they will make the same mistake this time when they leave.

A better question to ask is why is Iran fighting their battle through Hezzbollah? You realize of course that Iran has given them missiles much more capable than the crap they are using. But they don't have permission to use them...yet. Why? Because the missiles come with "Made in Iran" labels. When the first one falls then the "Dogs of War" released will make what is happening in Lebanon seem like a JV skirmish.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 1:12:38 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		A bunch of Ku Klux Klan members were out one night to air their robes.  While in the woods, they chanced upon a gentleman of the Jewish persuasion.

Quickly consulting a copy of  'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion', to make sure they had gotten their minorities straight, the Klan members proceeded to dig a pit in the dirt, and bury the gentleman of the Jewish persuasion up to his neck.

Then they turned their dogs loose to attack the man.  When the first dogs came too close, the gentleman of the Jewish persuasion turned his head, and bit the dog in the testicles as hard as he could....at that the dog yelped and ran away, taking the other dogs with it.

As one, the assembly of Klan members jumped up in outrage and screamed  "Damnit!!! Fight fair Jewboy!"


Can't imagine why this thread reminded me of that story.....

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 1:20:42 PM   
Calbammer


Posts: 13
Joined: 10/23/2004
Status: offline 		IMHO,

Israel has every right to react in whatever manner they have chosen to react with, just as we did with 911. They were and have always been, constantly attacked, by enemies that use innocents as shields. Please note, that I have no bias towards one side or the other in this matter. Yet, if it were up to me and thankfully, it is not. I would go in and bomb the hell out of the area that Israel wants free of Hezbollah. Those civilians who are not willing to stand up for their right to exist in a peaceful manner with other peaceful civilizations and tell the terrorist to get the hell out of dodge (their land), then they have no right to complain when Israel decides that it will do it for them to ensure their peace of mind.

Calbammer

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 1:36:44 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Merc,

Are you saying if someone stole your home and did so illegally but the sheriff in town was crooked so there was nothing you would do, you would never ever take the law into your own hands?

You would just leave town and hope it didn't happen to you again?

Of course Hezbollah isn't fighting fair, if they did, Israel would wipe them out.  During our revolution it was against the laws of war to target officers, we did it all the time.  Israel was founded by terrorists.

That said, if push came to shove I would back Israel against the Arabs but that doesn't mean that I can't hold Isreal to higher and smarter standards.

If you know Hezzbolah wants to appear like a homegrown revolution/guerrilla group and you know they hide among civilians and you don't create a strategy that takes that into consideration then you are fucking idiot.  Israel is acting like a fucking idiot.

It is almost as dumb as invading Iraq without a plan to deal with the majority Shia and their way too friendly ties with Iran.


(in reply to Calbammer)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 1:42:44 PM   
pleasetame


Posts: 75
Joined: 12/20/2005
Status: offline 		I think in many ways we have let the people of  Lebanon, Iraq and Iran down. These countries are being controlled by terrible men. Hezzbollah gets millions in donations every year from Americans who think they are helping the people of  Lebanon and in a sense it looks like they are. Hezzbollah is using some of the money they get to help the people, to gain their trust and then the rest for weapons. Their power is coming from the people, they are in office in Lebanon. The people do not understand, they are not educated and have basic human needs that a terrorist group is willing to provide, with part of the money we are providing them. I think our tatic of throwing money at situations, isnt working, if they want our money, then we should control where it goes.
pleasetame

(in reply to Calbammer)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 1:52:02 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		pleasetame,

The ONLY thing America cares about in the ME is cheap and reliable access to oil.  If we found out that pipelines lasted longer if they were coated with human blood we would install dictators to build rendering plants to collect human blood.

We have backed the most barbarous of dictators and the most vicious of regimes and looked away time and time again from things like genocide to ensure that steady supply of oil.

America and her citizens have let the people of the world down, but only out of ignorance of the truth of our actions in the ME.  Even Bush's current effort to bring democracy has nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with oil. 

(in reply to pleasetame)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 1:56:26 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Merc,

Are you saying if someone stole your home and did so illegally but the sheriff in town was crooked so there was nothing you would do, you would never ever take the law into your own hands?


Israel was gone from the area, so your analogy and argument is worthless. What "law" were they taking in their own hands? The "home" was abandoned. Instead of building it, or rebuilding it, they used it to launch rockets.

I don't hold Israel or the Muslims to any standards. Like people, actions and activities define them. Hezzbolah "wants to appear like a homegrown..." that's a reason to allow daily lobbing of rockets? Action / Re-Action. Why were the innocent people killed on the beach? They went to a beach where 300 yards away, Hezzbollah was launching rockets. What came first? One innocent dying is a crime. The cause of the crime wasn't Israel, they were a consequence of the effect of an impotent and complacent Lebanon government who, using your words, "acted like a fucking idiot."

Israel is autonomous. As much as the US thinks its money buys influence every decision they make is pragmatic for the good of Israel. US sends money to Israel for the same reason it sends money to South Korea. To me it would be more idiotic to continue to allow rockets to be fired daily over the border. It would be idiotic to believe that if they stopped the attack no more would be fired. It would be idiotic to not believe the specified goal of a group, never denied by any Muslim leader, to destroy Israel. Were I an Israeli citizen, I'd hope not to be elect any more idiots who believed that land could be given for peace to a people with such a stated agenda.

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 2:03:55 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Merc,

I didn't realize Israel had given back all the land they took in 1948, my mistake. 

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 2:14:10 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Merc,

I didn't realize Israel had given back all the land they took in 1948, my mistake. 


And my mistake for thinking you were talking about dealing in the here and now.

Any particular date in time you'd like to recreate the world? Pre-French & Indian War? Don't you think that New York should be given back to the indigenous people? However if they invested that $24 in Microsoft back then the whole tribe would have been rich even without their current exempt casinos. Pre WWI where royalty was all the rage? Pre Boxer Rebellion perhaps? War of the Roses? Pre-Magna Carta? Selfishly I'd like to have everything go back to the Roman Empire days, I think I can operate under that system, assuming I was born to the proper side of the forum.

Why go back to 1948? Maybe they are just waiting for proper DNA research to figure out who are the modern day descendants of the Pharaohs?

Being consistent in your thinking I'm sure you have you ceded any property or possessions you own back to the indigenous people where you currently live, or to the indentured servants and slaves who cleared the area so you can live comfortably in 2006.

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 294
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 2:14:30 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Most of the time I think you are pretty objective Merc but not on this one. I do't know how you can't see that you have the same knee jerk reaction without any objective analysis as the current American administration on this issue.

However you are right, Israel is automonous of the USA but not independent. They are a client state, paid for the by US taxpayer for US interests. Why should you see what Israel does is against Israeli interests when they can't see themselves.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 2:16:21 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		meatcleaver,

Your quote:

One can say all the right things and act the exact opposite way so restricting freedom of speach becomes meaningless. You might be able to legislate what people can and can't say but you can't legislate for nuance and implied meaning, therefore restrictions on speach become meaningless.
 
Just because something is difficult in practice doesn't make it unachievable. There is obviously a line to be drawn. For example, depicting Islam as a religion that naturally concludes in terrorism is crossing the line. It is up to a civilised society to determine where the line is.

In terms of British involvement, we have a Government with no back bone. Honestly, I don't think Blair and his cronies support this. They just don't have the bollocks to tell Bush to shove his state terrorism up his arse - and it doesn't help that we are still paying off WW2 debts to the US (so much for the special relationship).

Regards

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 2:22:56 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		philosophy:

Your quote:

...in all honesty, i dont think we're seeing the same news reports.......
 
I make you right. In UK newspapers today there were pictures of women, children and men blown apart and these aren't even the worst of what is happening because our media is not reporting anywhere near everything (according to some British sources who are out there). How anyone can say this is not indiscriminate slaughter is beyond me.

Regards
 

(in reply to bluepuppy)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 2:26:02 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		What comes to mind is the Vietnam War and the Russian conflict in Afghanistan.. In both cases the local combatants used guerilla tactics and excellent usage of local terrain  to wear down opposing forces (Allied in one case and Russian in the other)… Seems to me that the Hezbollah are and will continue to do this. Lets face it in all three cases the people at home and/or the international community put pressure to end the fighting ASAP….

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 2:28:40 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Cloudboy,

Your quote:

Without even going into "right" or "wrong," I would say Israel's actions were against its own National Interest.
 
Agreed. It is an absolute PR disaster for the Israelis and by association the US and British Governments. I was listening to a radio programme today and callers were comparing this with the Spanish Civil War and a fight against fascism. Whether or not this is idle talk, some were saying they were so sickened by the slaughter they wanted to go and fight on the side of Hezbullah and these were secular, white Britons with no religious preference.

Regards


(in reply to bluepuppy)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 2:36:01 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		meatcleaver,


Your quote:

Straw in the Guardian - "Disproportionate action only escalates an already dangerous situation. One of many serious concerns I have is that the continuation of such tactics by Israel could further destabilise the already fragile Lebanese nation." He said Israel had the right to defend itself "proportionately", and expressed sympathy for their victims of the conflict. But he also "grieved" for the "10 times as many" Lebanese civilians killed or injured.
 
Good to see you're keeping your eye in with left-wing newspapers and the wisdom of prominent ex-Government members  When are you next in England? We'll meet for a pint and pop down to the local socialist club - no need to thank me in advance.

Regards


(in reply to bluepuppy)
Profile   Post #: 300
Page:   <<   < prev  13 14 [15] 16 17   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? Page: <<   < prev  13 14 [15] 16 17   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078