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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 6:26:32 AM   
JohnSteed1967


Posts: 304
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		Adding my opinion about Israel and what's going on. I support Israel 1000% They told Lebanon, "Hey we will leave, you agree to patrol the border" Lebanon was like "Sure Just hurry up and get out of our country" Lebanon went back on its word Ignored their promise to Israel and let the fucking terrorist do what ever they pleased.

Israel has had this planned for years they just needed a spark to set it all off. I don't think they truly care about the two soldiers and my understanding is they tell all of their people we are constantly at war if your kill or captured, well your a causaulty of war, but we will avenge the action.

   Again, Why is the world so "Pissed off" at a pre-emptive strike? I mean come on George did it to protect us from all those Nukes that Saddam Had. Oh wait there were no nukes.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 6:30:19 AM   
Herrasslutboy


Posts: 1
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		    absolutely.  any nation that is attacked militarily by its neighors, whether it be a terroristorganization such as Hezbala, which is in fact the controlling government of a large part of the country, or the lebanese military, which have allowed and condoned the attack, has the right to defend itself. 

  Canada is a friend of the United States, but if they kidnapped and killed our soldiers, and retaliated with rocket attacks into New York city when we tried to rescue our hostages, the US would, and rightfully so, pound them into the rubble. 

  The palestinians have come to a gun fight carrying rocks.  they started a fight which they cannot possibly win, and they killed their only bargaining chips, the hostages.  so they are getting their just desert. 

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 7:23:56 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"Honestly, the Israeli's aren't carpet bombing, they are trying to target terrorists who are hiding behind civilians"
"I don't believe Israel is bombing Lebanon "indescriminately", even with the horrible deaths in Qana"
 
...in all honesty, i dont think we're seeing the same news reports.......

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 7:33:55 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"Honestly, the Israeli's aren't carpet bombing, they are trying to target terrorists who are hiding behind civilians"
"I don't believe Israel is bombing Lebanon "indescriminately", even with the horrible deaths in Qana"
 
...in all honesty, i dont think we're seeing the same news reports.......


I think we just see through different eyes, philosophy.
 
I'm curious as to what you thought of the rest of my post.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 7:40:37 AM   
cloudboy


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Without even going into "right" or "wrong," I would say Israel's actions were against its own National Interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_interest

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 8:13:30 AM   
emek


Posts: 38
Joined: 6/25/2006
Status: offline 		Greeting from Israel
Im staying at friends house next to tel aviv because the whole of northern Israel is shut off. this morning at least 57 people were killed in lebanon because the hizballa were using them as human armour, and around 100 rockets were fired towardes Israel.
this is a situation created by and for the state of Iran, who is trying to terrorize Israel and the whole world.
I hope this war will stop as soon as possible. all we want is peace!!!

emek

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 8:16:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I don't think Israel are carpet bombing Lebanon but I do believe they are acting with criminal negligence and in blind anger and frustration. 6-700 civilians dead is because of terror tactics and not through accidents of war.

Israel claims to be hitting missile launch sites, while most of the civilian areas bombed have no military function and are too far away from the border to be missile launch sites. Israel said they told everyone to get out of southern Lebanon and then proceeded to attack people who were trying to flee southern Lebanon. No one but hardened Israeli supporters actually believe Israel didn't target the UN monitoring post and Israel would have been condemned by the UN if it wasn't for the USA. A Canadian colonel who used to be stationed in southern Lebanon as a UN observer explained exactly why it wasn't an accident and what Israels reasons were and that was to act with impunity that an observer post doesn't allow.

The most foolish thing of all, is that this war is against Israel's and the USA's interests. Sooner or later it has to make peace and it has to work with those people who want to work with it and they are getting fewer and fewer. The USA sending aid to the Lebanese and smart bombs to the Israelis led to a Lebanese woman to comment, 'The USA is fattening us up for the Israelis to kill us.' Support for Hezzbollah was in decline before this conflict, now 80% of the Lebanese see them as the only organisation trying to protect them. Syria and Iran's credibility in the region rises. So much for Bush being smart.

The USA while saying it can't control Israel is something else no one in the world believes. The USA could create the conditions for peace talks tomorrow by not allowing it to be the dog that is wagged by its tail, Israel. Even the Saudis and Egypt are starting to distance themselves from the US because of its hypocrisy and refusal to be a honest broker while refusing to allow states in the region to sort the problem out themselves.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 8:20:02 AM   
philosophy


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"Hezbollah does hide fighters and weapons in civilian homes."
 
figured this was the crux of your argument.......as regards any difference bwteen the IRA and Hezbollah......sadly it is the case that not only homes were used as arms dumps but churches too.....perhaps we could have hit the Vatican as well, for not preventing its priests from supporting the terrorists.....

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 8:52:37 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		How you win and lose a guerrilla war.

If you are the guerrillas, you put one sniper in a hospital and pray to god the government bombs the hospital to kill the sniper.  VIOLA, the family of every dead patient blames not the sniper but the government who blew up the hospital.  So you trade one sniper for the entire extended families of everyone who was killed in the hospital.  Same goes for Churches.  Store some missiles in it, if they destroy the Church to get the missiles, Viola, the extended family of the entire congregation are suddenly screaming to volunteer for your guerrilla army.

The way to win guerrilla wars is simple.  The Brits know how to do it.  In Malaysia when it turned into a bloody guerrilla war, they put small teams of snipers out in the bush.  When they saw someone with a gun, they shot them and left the body and the gun where they died.  Next person comes along, sees the dead body and the gun and picks up the gun.  The team shoots that guy and eventually, nobody wants to pick up guns...

I believe Iran wants to distract and tie down Israel and America was dumb enough to let it happen.  Bush has been played before and he got played again.  Smoke and mirrors of the most obvious kind and we step right into it.  Syria is pouring out support to the "poor" Lebanese, country Syria spent the last few decades occupying, and overnight have redeemed themselves as the "good guys" against a common enemy.

While I am not surprised Bush was dumb enough to fall for this, it does surprise me that Israel fell for such an old parlor trick. 

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 10:23:59 AM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: emek

Greeting from Israel
Im staying at friends house next to tel aviv because the whole of northern Israel is shut off. this morning at least 57 people were killed in lebanon because the hizballa were using them as human armour, and around 100 rockets were fired towardes Israel.



So it wasn't the Israeli bombs and missiles that killed them then

quote:



this is a situation created by and for the state of Iran, who is trying to terrorize Israel and the whole world.

Is there ever going to be a time when Israel holds its hands up and accepts responsibility for its own actions?  This "blame everyone but Israel" routine is wearing a little thin with world opinion.
quote:


I hope this war will stop as soon as possible. all we want is peace!!!
emek


You should tell that to the people of  Lebanon because they probably feel the same way the people of Northern Israel feel.  It's a two-way street, no matter which way you try and paint it.


_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 5:49:17 PM   
amastermind


Posts: 54
Joined: 1/13/2006
Status: offline 		There is a tremendous amount of ignorance as well as a significant number of half truths in many of these posts.  Also, I am reminded of a quote by Hitler:  "Get the people to swallow the big lie and it is then easy to get them to swallow the little ones." 

We know Israel's goal.    That is to be secure from missiles landing on its third largest city and for its inhabitants and tourists to be able to go to a market or catch a bus without fear of being blown up.  We know the US's goal.  That is to destroy an infrastructure that resulted in the OKC and world trade center bombings in the 1990s, the events of September 11, 2001,  and numerous other bombings in major cities all around the world.  Pray tell, what is Hezbollah's goal?  

For those of you that buy that inane (stupid in the words of  Cr0cdile) "disproportionate response" argument, were you to witness bombs falling on the third largest city of your country (whatever it is) with open threats to launch them on your largest city, there is little doubt that you would feel differently. 

One would hope that the events of 9/11 taught something, but I guess not.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 6:00:18 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		If by OKC you mean Oklahoma City, then surely you aren't saying an Arab had anything to do with that?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 6:45:30 PM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
..i have noted that those who support Israel's disproportionate response consistently avoid answering a question posed by myself and others..........the same logic that allows Israel to bomb the Lebanon indiscriminately would have allowed the British government to carpet bomb Dublin while the IRA were bombing us. Once again, and this time please dont avoid it.......would they have supported such a response from the British government?


I can't say that I really support Israel ... more like, I support trying something different, in a conflict that seems to be getting nowhere they way it has been handled in the past. Perhaps these two parties are never going to get along, and the most humane thing is just let the winner, win. At least the fighting would then stop.
 
That said, you are completely correct. Everyone on the "support Israel" side, did dodge your question ... and it's a very on-point question to be sure. I don't have a clear enough understanding of the dispute between Britain and the IRA, so can't even attempt to give you an answer ... but I would actually like to hear how you feel about how Britain handled this dispute, and how you might think there solution could apply to the current conflict in the Middle East.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 7:24:07 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

How you win and lose a guerrilla war.

If you are the guerrillas, you put one sniper in a hospital and pray to god the government bombs the hospital to kill the sniper.  VIOLA, the family of every dead patient blames not the sniper but the government who blew up the hospital.  So you trade one sniper for the entire extended families of everyone who was killed in the hospital.  Same goes for Churches.  Store some missiles in it, if they destroy the Church to get the missiles, Viola, the extended family of the entire congregation are suddenly screaming to volunteer for your guerrilla army.

The way to win guerrilla wars is simple.  The Brits know how to do it.  In Malaysia when it turned into a bloody guerrilla war, they put small teams of snipers out in the bush.  When they saw someone with a gun, they shot them and left the body and the gun where they died.  Next person comes along, sees the dead body and the gun and picks up the gun.  The team shoots that guy and eventually, nobody wants to pick up guns...

I believe Iran wants to distract and tie down Israel and America was dumb enough to let it happen.  Bush has been played before and he got played again.  Smoke and mirrors of the most obvious kind and we step right into it.  Syria is pouring out support to the "poor" Lebanese, country Syria spent the last few decades occupying, and overnight have redeemed themselves as the "good guys" against a common enemy.

While I am not surprised Bush was dumb enough to fall for this, it does surprise me that Israel fell for such an old parlor trick. 


Works for me CD and yep been there done that.. But don't you just love it when the bastards load up kids with explosives ad sed them into a check point and radio detonate the explosives? Anyone remember that happening? I'll bet a few 'Nam Vets do...

Want to stop guerrilla wars? STOP FEEDING THE BLOODY GUERRILLAS WITH BANANAS!



_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 8:40:35 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967


  Again, Why is the world so "Pissed off" at a pre-emptive strike?


I think pictures of 20 children in bodybags didn't help.

quote:


I mean come on George did it to protect us from all those Nukes that Saddam Had. Oh wait there were no nukes.


Indeed there weren't. 

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/30/2006 10:31:15 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		amastermind,

Does the world really look that simple to you?  You do realize that most of the manpower, brainpower, and money come from Saudi Arabia for 9/11, right?  So then why are we in Iraq, a country that had less to do with 9/11 than almost any other country in the ME?

As for those cities in Israel, those use to be Palestinian cities.  Can I assume if Mexicans drove you out of your city you would tuck tail and run and never do anything to right that wrong? 

I am not backing anyone in this conflict, just lecturing someone who wants to belittle others for being ignorant of history who forgets history started a few years prior to 1948 or 9/11...

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 1:25:27 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amastermind


We know Israel's goal.    That is to be secure from missiles landing on its third largest city and for its inhabitants and tourists to be able to go to a market or catch a bus without fear of being blown up.  We know the US's goal.  That is to destroy an infrastructure that resulted in the OKC and world trade center bombings in the 1990s, the events of September 11, 2001,  and numerous other bombings in major cities all around the world.  Pray tell, what is Hezbollah's goal?  

For those of you that buy that inane (stupid in the words of  Cr0cdile) "disproportionate response" argument, were you to witness bombs falling on the third largest city of your country (whatever it is) with open threats to launch them on your largest city, there is little doubt that you would feel differently. 



Let's get this right. Missiles were not raining down on Haifa before the start of this present conflict. They were sporadic and inaccurate and did minimal damage. Yes, they were a provocation and Israel had the right to try and take out the fighters that were firing them. Israel did not have the right to slaughter innocent civilians.

Lets look at the figures. Correct me if I'm wrong. Civilian deaths (non-combatants) since the start of the conflict.

Israel approx. 20 (I've rounded that up because I can only find twelve.) So 2,000 missiles from the start of the conflict while might be provoking terror are not causes mass deaths.

Lebanon 700-750.

Palestinians in Gaza aprox. 150.

Lets take another look.

Israel 20
Lebanon 7-750
Palestinians 150

Get the people to swallow the big lie and its easy to swallow the small lies huh. It seems to me that looking at those stats, it is Israel telling the lie.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 2:56:39 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amastermind

There is a tremendous amount of ignorance as well as a significant number of half truths in many of these posts.  Also, I am reminded of a quote by Hitler:  "Get the people to swallow the big lie and it is then easy to get them to swallow the little ones." 

We know Israel's goal.    That is to be secure from missiles landing on its third largest city and for its inhabitants and tourists to be able to go to a market or catch a bus without fear of being blown up.  We know the US's goal.  That is to destroy an infrastructure that resulted in the OKC and world trade center bombings in the 1990s, the events of September 11, 2001,  and numerous other bombings in major cities all around the world.  Pray tell, what is Hezbollah's goal?  

For those of you that buy that inane (stupid in the words of  Cr0cdile) "disproportionate response" argument, were you to witness bombs falling on the third largest city of your country (whatever it is) with open threats to launch them on your largest city, there is little doubt that you would feel differently. 

One would hope that the events of 9/11 taught something, but I guess not.


These two opinions are from two British Jews who are prominent members of the governing British Labour Party. Both have very different opinions from their leader Tony Blair and have both broke ranks with his pro-Israeli /American stance. So it is diffficult to argue that seeing Israel's reaction being out of proportion is an neoNazi / anti-semetic lie. Though both have been accused of conveniently being self-hating Jews. Something I don't buy, as looking deeper into their views thay are pro-Israeli but both believe peace will give Israel a more secure future and the present Olmert/Bush policy is best decribed as moronic. Straw is more circumspect than Kaufman because he is still in government. These aren't the only two prominent Jewish people in Britain who have criticized Israeli policy and with the Blair government so pro-Olmert/Bush policy they have no pressure to break the party line.
 
Straw in the Guardian - "Disproportionate action only escalates an already dangerous situation. One of many serious concerns I have is that the continuation of such tactics by Israel could further destabilise the already fragile Lebanese nation." He said Israel had the right to defend itself "proportionately", and expressed sympathy for their victims of the conflict. But he also "grieved" for the "10 times as many" Lebanese civilians killed or injured.
 
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/gerald_kaufman/2006/07/kaufman.html

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 5:55:07 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"I would actually like to hear how you feel about how Britain handled this dispute, and how you might think there solution could apply to the current conflict in the Middle East."
 
thank you Caitllyn and others who answered.......in my opinion we began to deal with the NI situation in a serious way when John Major broke with all political wisdom and actually gave a green light to talks with the IRA. President Clinton also made a massive difference by making it difficult for american citizens to fund the irish terrorists from the US (something all previous presidents had somehow, unaccountably, failed to do). It is not true to say that now all is peaches and cream in NI, a generation or two will have to pass for that to happen, but speaking as someone who has spent time there both pre- and post- ceasefire i can honestly say that we are back from the brink.
Sadly, Israel is right now on that same brink. There comes a point in fighting terrorism when the weapons of the devil seem very tempting indeed. If they are killing our civilians, it surely isnt the end of the world if we kill theirs.....but this is the abyss. It takes great political courage and, perhaps, a commitment to humanity over and above any national flag to pull back from that. It also helps when foreign powers live up to their responsibilities in creating the situation. Iraq and Syria clearly need to mind their own business, but it is the purest hypocrisy for America to call for that while backing Israel in the massive material and poilitical manner it always does. When the US insists an Arab state lives up to all the UN resolutions that apply while simultaneously denying that Israel has to abide by such resolutions, is hypocrisy.
In essence then, if Israel is to follow Britains path in dealing with terrorism, two things need to happen.........first of all Israel needs a statesman who will talk with murdering bastards, because in that way they have a possibility of becoming non-murdering bastards (and just killing them means that all their family become murdering bastards, even if they weren't before), and secondly all the foreign powers backing both sides need to stop arming them. Then, in time, and with the help of the international community (as opposed to that community using the situation to have a proxy war) there may be a negotiated settlement, and a chance for future generations to call this violence history, as opposed to current affairs.
 

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/31/2006 6:34:03 AM   
bluepuppy


Posts: 2
Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline 		whats the difference between Israel and hezbolah?   Israel uses its army to protect its civilians, hizbolah uses its civilians to protect its army.............

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