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RE: AND WHY ? - 9/27/2016 7:47:27 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

You asked about how people could die in arson I was giving examples of cases I was familiar with.
You were also using Australia was a good example for us when it had already been pointed out that since 89 every year but one the primary weapon for murder was the knife, making Australia irrelevant to the rest of the world.

The knife was the main weapon in mass killings?

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: AND WHY ? - 9/27/2016 9:07:12 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

You asked about how people could die in arson I was giving examples of cases I was familiar with.
You were also using Australia was a good example for us when it had already been pointed out that since 89 every year but one the primary weapon for murder was the knife, making Australia irrelevant to the rest of the world.

The knife was the main weapon in mass killings?

I said murder, not mass murder.
Of course you think that 4 killed with a gun one day is worse than one killed each day for a week with a knife.
Now is it that you think 4 at once is worse than 7 spread out.
Or do you think that it doesn't matter at all as long as it isn't with a gun?

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/27/2016 9:57:43 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

You see here is the difference in bold type between gun fanatics and psychiatrists. Gun fanatics, by your demonstration, heap abuse and derision on people who suffer mental illnesses while psychiatrists try to stabilize their patients and improve their quality of life. There is plenty of reason to believe that once stabilized and they remain in treatment these folks are no longer a danger.




How much experience do you have with serious psychiatric conditions?

Let you in on a piece of information which clearly, you are not aware of.

Psychiatric drugs lose effectiveness in every patient over prolonged use. Its a proven fact.

At best, a patient may be able to take any given medication for maybe five years before it loses effectiveness or in many cases, causes the condition to worsen dramatically.

Then there are the side effects, some not so bad, weight gain, onset of diabetes, Tardive dyskinesia (loss of muscle control in face and hands) which will become permanent if the medication is continued, then there are the ones that are really bad, kidney function impairment, liver impairment, are the least of these.

And these are not 'possible' side effects, they are pretty much a sure thing with prolonged use.

Of course, lets not forget the Columbine shooting.

One of those two individuals was taking zoloft as prescribed, the autopsy even showed a therapeutic level in his blood. And that particular person had been on the drug for a long enough time to be considered 'stable.'

The world saw just how stable he was.

And I am speaking from first hand experience, my sister is bipolar. In the last seven years since her diagnosis, she has been switched to a total of 8 different medications, none of which are effective for very long.

After voicing my concerns to the psychiatrist who is supervising her treatment, he told me everything that I just relayed to you.

Then there are the disorders that cannot be treated with medications of any kind. Psychotic Personality disorder is a good example. There are a number of anti psychotic medications, but none of them are 100% effective.

Add to that that a person with this disorder may not even show symptoms at all until something triggers a psychotic break.

A person with this disorder actually can function in society and no one ever know the truth, some of the most successful business tycoons fall into this category. Of course, the other end of the spectrum are typically serial killers or generally serial criminals with a tendency toward violent crimes.

The range of disorders that often manifests in violent outbursts, acts or even murder and mass shootings are too numerous to mention, and there is no magic bullet in treating them.

Yet the general public believes the Madison Avenue driven commercials that claim there are. Pharmaceutical companies make billions hyping the cure all anti depressant.

However, you may find this interesting.

Then there the postal workers that gave rise to the term 'going postal' many of whom were on the wonder drug prozac. A drug later to be determined to cause violent outbursts among a good percentage of the people taking it.

Let us no forget that in almost all cases of mass shootings, the shooter was found to be diagnosed with having a mental condition linked to violent outbursts or taking medications known to cause mania, hypomania, amnesia, manic reaction, psychotic reactions, delirium, delusions, hallucinations, hostility, psychosis and homicidal ideation.

What is worse is the simple fact that mental health professionals prescribe these drugs long term for short term problems.

This in and of itself presents a new problem, a person who had a temporary mental condition, maybe as simple as traumatic loss induced depression is put on medication that in and of itself can cause the very problem that he or she sought to avoid in the first place.

Everyone blasted Tom Cruise for his tirade about anti depressants on the today show.

The thing is he was right, and has been proven right a number of times.

The sad fact is that the US is the most overly medicated country when it comes to these drugs on the planet.

I am not demonizing, abusing or deriding people with these problems, I am, from hard earned experience speaking to the point.

In point of fact, I am probably more aware of treatment research for many disorders linked to some of the very problems that would make a person ineligible to purchase a gun.

There are at least two courses of research that might actually be on track for a cure for some of the problems, since most of the problems stem from a chemical imbalance in the brain, or lowered function of the brain centers that inhibit psychotic or violent behavior.

The problem with the drug treatments is that they try to kick start the part of the brain not working, but it is like using a cast iron skillet to kill a fly on a glass window.

You will kill the fly, but the window is not going to be doing so good.

However, research has shown that in many cases, directly targeting the affected area of the brain will put an end to the problem without the harmful or violent side effects.

Funny thing is that it is based on Chinese acupuncture therapy dating back a couple of thousand years.

These same researchers have also discovered that brain cells can be healed and regrown, contrary to the old belief that once damaged the brain is forever impaired.

And to be honest, should a person be proven to be stabilized, and has been for a period of time without incident, I would actually agree that person's right to purchase a firearm should be restored.

The reason being, as I pointed out earlier, in more situations than not, it is a temporary problem that needs a short term treatment.

I also advocate the lifting of a drivers license suspension for someone who has remained sober for a period of at least two years. A life time suspension is bullshit.

_____________________________

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You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 5:27:28 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

With the exception of the occasional drunken brawls in one of the towns bars, the last major violent crime of any note happened in 1927, unless you count the deputies wife who was from New York, met her husband in college and they move back to his home town.

He came home late one night, she heard someone messing with the door knob and blew a hole in the door with a shotgun. The fact he had dropped his key and was on his hands and knees looking for it kept him from being shot.

The whole problem stemmed from ice building up on the door knob so his key would not go in to unlock it.



Familiar scenario:

Woman accidentally shoots husband who tried to surprise her with breakfast

Moral of story; in a gun-owning household, do NOT 'surprise' the wife.


I wonder what spin respectmen would put on that if he ever posted in the gun threads rather than just starting his own to piss and moan about womyn?

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 6:52:40 AM   
Termyn8or


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"Then there the postal workers that gave rise to the term 'going postal' many of whom were on the wonder drug prozac. A drug later to be determined to cause violent outbursts among a good percentage of the people taking it. "

I did not know that specifically but suspected something like it. What, did the VA doctors get paid to push that shit ?

The problem here is simple. Look at the old days. We had no school shootings, military base shootings (which is a fucking joke, they defend us ?) mall shootings or shootings over a parking spot. Yet half the people had a gun in the glovebox, or the dresser drawer. Their kids didn't go in either ad shoot their little brother, they were taught to stay out o other people's shit at a very young age. they got paddled on the ass when they did something wrong.

But you can't do that now, now they need a pill every day. What does that pill do exactly ? Well they can't tell you because they don't know, so just try it and see if your kid shoots you with your own fucking gun. That is their attitude, sell the drugs. And they put people in jail for selling pot ? Not one killing has been linked to pot USE. Maybe when the gestapo comes in yes, but not USE. What's more there has never been one death attributed to pot use, even of the pot user. And not just pot, prescription drugs have killed more people than all of the illegal drugs combined.

That is one problem I have with Texas. I like the conservative values, and though I am not religious I am sure they would tolerate me, but those ridiculous pot laws are simply out of hand.

But being gun friendly and tough on crime, that I think is good. Arizona might be good as well, they got sheriff Joe, but they are pretty much a desert. You can find water in Texas, I think.

But i don't want to be out in the garage burning one and have the SWAT team come and after prison time have to pay for the fuel for the fucking helicopter. Buncha shit. I'll just stay here where I am miserable, but connected.

Nowhere is perfect.

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 7:02:41 AM   
Termyn8or


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"I wonder what spin respectmen would put on that if he ever posted in the gun threads rather than just starting his own to piss and moan about womyn? "

Now there's a can of worms forya. Would he want to shoot them ? Would he want to make sure they can't have guns ? Would he want to apply a test for feminazism to get a gun ?

I think just about all Women should have guns, and carry them out in public. Maybe not during that time of the month LOL, but in general we would have no rapes, we could let the Muslim refugees in and whatever. Women would be safe at the ATM. Tell you a true story.

Buddy of mine, Tony was at the ATM and some n_____ comes up behind and says "I'll take that money". Tony turns around and "Do you have a gun ?" "No" "Do you have a knife ?". "No". BOOM BOOM BOOM, now I'll take YOUR money. I like that, I like hearing about oladies in wheelchairs blowing some thug's head off but there is another thing. What if it was my 75 year old Mother at that ATM ? The motherfucker would have gotten away with it and I would probably never find him. And of course neither would the cops because they wouldn't even look.

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 7:18:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The knife was the main weapon in mass killings?


It was in the Cairns Child Killings.


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  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 8:01:45 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
The problem here is simple. Look at the old days.

I think you could be misremembering there. There's spree killings back to at least the 'Fifties, and I'd be surprised if Starkweather invented that one all by himself. Didn't Dillinger and Barrow indulge in a few mass shootings for fun rather than funds, come to that? How about a few of the nutcases poking around the old west?

And you missed my point about respectmen and tooled up feminazis: I was thinking of the histrionic tantrum he'd throw about the specific case Edwird was referring to, rather than his general assumptions about womyn and guns. (Which you could well be reading right.)

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 8:26:40 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

There are at least two courses of research that might actually be on track for a cure for some of the problems, since most of the problems stem from a chemical imbalance in the brain, or lowered function of the brain centers that inhibit psychotic or violent behavior.


jlf I appreciate this more reasonable and thoughtful argument by you.

I have an informed layman's familiarity with the neuroscience involved. The executive functions of the brain are in the prefrontal lobes of the cortex. Back in the 1930s attempts to deal with these ills lead to prefrontal lobotomies ~ severing the nerve bundles that connect the prefrontal lobes to the rest of the brain. Today, mild electric shock is used in some cases.

Killing the fly on the window is an apt analogy. The FBI has three million medical referrals but only 6000 fall into the disallowed categories.

Sending mental health records en mass to the FBI fails the constitutional test and the effectiveness test, imo. There is a good chance the patient already owns a gun before he is diagnosed or can get one easily through illegal purchase. Proving a negative is near impossible but we don't know if any "can't have buy" list has prevented a shooting. I share your concern. But other strategies should be explored.

Maybe for example, if a diagnosed patient breaks contact with a psychiatrist or if the doctor sees the ineffectiveness of treatment he or she might be sanctioned by state law to refer the patient for hospital intake. I don't know how this would be done and still maintain the civil rights of the patient. My fear is that involving the police would end in a fatal shooting. So, I guess the doctor would file a petition with the court.

As I said earlier, it is a conundrum. I don't know the answer. A wiser mind than mine is needed. But, yeah, mental disorders are a big factor in mass shootings. Why else would someone do that?

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 10:35:54 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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Don't you guys ever get tired of having the same argument over and over?

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 11:05:06 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

Don't you guys ever get tired of having the same argument over and over?

No, I learn as each debate progresses.

But, thanks for your concern.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 11:19:45 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

You asked about how people could die in arson I was giving examples of cases I was familiar with.
You were also using Australia was a good example for us when it had already been pointed out that since 89 every year but one the primary weapon for murder was the knife, making Australia irrelevant to the rest of the world.

The knife was the main weapon in mass killings?

Richard Speck

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 11:27:32 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

Don't you guys ever get tired of having the same argument over and over?

It's sorta like pussy. You tell me.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 11:47:19 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

You asked about how people could die in arson I was giving examples of cases I was familiar with.
You were also using Australia was a good example for us when it had already been pointed out that since 89 every year but one the primary weapon for murder was the knife, making Australia irrelevant to the rest of the world.

The knife was the main weapon in mass killings?

Richard Speck

There's always one somewhere, but that was not the case in Australia. WTF does Chicago have to do with Oz, Dorothy?

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 12:00:34 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

You asked about how people could die in arson I was giving examples of cases I was familiar with.
You were also using Australia was a good example for us when it had already been pointed out that since 89 every year but one the primary weapon for murder was the knife, making Australia irrelevant to the rest of the world.

The knife was the main weapon in mass killings?

Richard Speck

There's always one somewhere, but that was not the case in Australia. WTF does Chicago have to do with Oz, Dorothy?

Again you ask for examples, I give them to you being more familiar with U S crime than Austrailian.
And you were given an Australian example as well.
Looks like the only thing that counts is what you want to here.
Australian crime isn't my problem.
I would say though that Australia is a terrible example since most of their murders are and have been every year but one since 88 with knives which means they don't fit into any pattern in the world.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 9/28/2016 12:01:59 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 1:31:31 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

With the exception of the occasional drunken brawls in one of the towns bars, the last major violent crime of any note happened in 1927, unless you count the deputies wife who was from New York, met her husband in college and they move back to his home town.

He came home late one night, she heard someone messing with the door knob and blew a hole in the door with a shotgun. The fact he had dropped his key and was on his hands and knees looking for it kept him from being shot.

The whole problem stemmed from ice building up on the door knob so his key would not go in to unlock it.



Familiar scenario:

Woman accidentally shoots husband who tried to surprise her with breakfast

Moral of story; in a gun-owning household, do NOT 'surprise' the wife.



I wonder what spin respectmen would put on that if he ever posted in the gun threads rather than just starting his own to piss and moan about womyn?




He would likely dig up 10 stories from the internet about husbands intentionally murdering their wives, being charged and convicted for it, followed by other stories of women shooting accidentally or in self defense and not charged, then claim that they and the woman in NC should have been charged with attempted murder if life was fair, but instead wasn't charged with anything because of female privilege, brought about by our feminazi-ruled society.

Ta-dahhh.




< Message edited by Edwird -- 9/28/2016 2:32:03 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 1:48:58 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

AND WHY ? Yeah, and why do these foreigners think they know what is best for us ? I am starting to think they are jealous.


I think it's because we assume that it's a universal desire not to get shot dead.



< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 9/28/2016 2:18:38 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 1:51:25 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

How much experience do you have with serious psychiatric conditions?


He's been arguing on this forum for many years, Jeff, and it's mostly an American forum.

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 4:23:38 PM   
AtUrCervix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bondageerone

not get rid of your 2nd amendment,
here comes a sexist joke,
no one got any balls.



(I'm waiting.....)

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: AND WHY ? - 9/28/2016 5:41:54 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Australian crime isn't my problem.


But, Australian gun prohibition and mass shootings were my topic.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 160
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