Padriag
Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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ORIGINAL: enthralled
I realize that this topic may have been previously discussed; however, different day, different perspective. ......
Oh, just a few times... few million times...
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After reading on another thread, I was wondering what YOUR ideas are on the word punishment?
What does the word punishment mean to you?
This is something I posted elsewhere on the topic of punishment.
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There are a number of common misunderstandings about punishment, and all of them are based on ideas or images or experiences associated with it. For some, punishment is about anger because that is the experience they associate with it. For others punishment is only for children (and therefore childish) because that is the association they make. The reality is, all of us are punished throughout our lives, punishment is a natural part of life. We are punished by society through laws designed to control and modify our behavior. We are punished by friends, family and peer groups through disapproval and rejection to again control and modify our behavior in ways acceptable to those groups. We are punished by nature itself, whether it be getting burned for putting our hand in a fire or some broken bones as the result of trying some dumb stunt the laws of gravity didn’t "approve" of. And in all these cases the punishment weakens (makes less likely to occur again in the future) or stops the behavior, it controls and modifies our behavior. Punishment is not about anger, though some certainly do so out of anger. Punishment is not only for children, it is applied to all of us from the day we are born to the day we die.
There is the belief that it shouldn’t be necessary with adults, that presumably as rational mature adults some form of punishment should not be necessary to modify our behavior. And indeed sometimes it is not, sometimes a rational explanation of the consequences of our actions is all it takes. Alfred Adler wrote extensively on this and Dr Thomas Sweeney in his book "Adlerian Counseling: A Practitioner’s Approach, 4th Ed." devoted two full chapters to methods of teaching natural and logical consequences of our actions to individuals. But despite this, or perhaps in spite of it, people are not always rational or mature. Even normally rational and mature adults have moments when we simply aren’t. There are also those cases when a rational adult simply disagrees that the stated consequence will occur. Finally, there are those cases when a submissive simply has no rational control over a behavior. In short, reason is not always enough and in those moments we need stronger measures, we need averisive stimuli or punishers to correct, discipline and ultimately stop the behavior. I think its very important that this be understood, that this role of punishment in control be understood. It’s a tool, and like any tool it can be abused, but with knowledge of its effective use, it can be an effective tool. However, like any tool I do not see it as being inherently good or bad, its simply a tool that can be put to good or bad ends.
Punishment can come in many forms, what makes something a punishment is the effect it has.
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A punisher (also called an aversive stimulus) is a consequence that makes a particular behavior less likely to occur in the future. A punisher is defined by its effect on the behavior it follows. A stimulus event is a punisher when it decreases the frequency of the behavior it follows.
You can call that a punishment, you can call it a consequence, you can call it discipline, and its arguing semantics. When you reduce them to the logical definition, a punishment/consequence/discipline is something that follows an undesired behavior and makes it less likely to occur again in the future. Note that any of those words can be used in that sentence and the meaning remains unchanged. That makes them synonyms in this context.
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As a Dominant, how does having to punish make you feel?
I'm never happy about it, because it means the submissive has done something to make it necessary. But I also realize that it is part of the job, I'm there to provide structure and discipline, that's part of what I bring to and create in the relationship. As part of that, punishment is sometimes necessary.
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I think that punishment is another one of those words that has individualized meaning. What are your thoughts?
I agree, for many... I would say most, punishment is yet another term that has a very individualized meaning (like slave, master, sub, dom, bratty, to name just a few). I try to stick to rational definitions of things, and where possible I draw on clinical sources for those definitions because I find them to be both objective and reliable.
People argue about punishment for many different reasons. Perhaps the most common reason I see is that they are arguing personal views based on personal experiences. Its all very subjective for them, very personal and thus so are their disputes and reactions.
For me, punishment is simply a tool of behavior modification. I understand it in that sense, how it works, when it does and does not work, some of the possible consequences of it, and what makes it work.
I know, for example, that in many cases punishment is not necessary. It is entirely possible to simply give a verbal correction, perhaps engage in some repetitions of the desired behavior to impress it on the submissive and that is enough. But I also realize that sometimes punishment is necessary, sometimes to achieve focus (it does have a way of getting your attention), sometimes as a catharsis for the submissive (this works for some and you have to assess that individually), sometimes as a way of making a strong association between an aversive stimulus and an undesired behavior that the submissive is unable to control (or unable to completely control) on their own (in short, you're helping them control something they can't control on their own. Gee, imagine that, a dominant actually controlling the behavior of a submissive, who'd have thought it.), etc.
Its a tool, I use it when its useful... same as I use my framing hammer when I'm framing, and my finishing hammer for trim work. Just a matter of using the right tool at the right time for the right job, no more, no less.
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Padriag
A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer
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RE: On punishment .... - 
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